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dlbalr

Detroit vs Montreal, Jan. 25, 7:30 PM

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First, Detroit was terrible, but at least the Habs took advantage of it. Unfortunately, I am already hearing from TSN that PG is telling teams he is not ready to sell because "they have a shot". argh...

As for PK, the leash is so short it is stupid. He made a soft clear because the puck was rolling. It wasn't a bad play, just a missed execution. The elbow call was a bit weak, but hardly something to bench him for.

Given he came out in the media and took full responsibility and defended the coach, you would think they would return the favor and cut him some slack. Naturally, this just feeds the trolls in the media trying to turn every game into the "bash PK show".

Prepare for much LESS from PK. The only thing he can do now is sit back and avoid taking any chances at all. Then he will be bashed for "under performing offensively"... this team sure likes to eat its young.

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First, Detroit was terrible, but at least the Habs took advantage of it. Unfortunately, I am already hearing from TSN that PG is telling teams he is not ready to sell because "they have a shot". argh...

As for PK, the leash is so short it is stupid. He made a soft clear because the puck was rolling. It wasn't a bad play, just a missed execution. The elbow call was a bit weak, but hardly something to bench him for.

Given he came out in the media and took full responsibility and defended the coach, you would think they would return the favor and cut him some slack. Naturally, this just feeds the trolls in the media trying to turn every game into the "bash PK show".

Prepare for much LESS from PK. The only thing he can do now is sit back and avoid taking any chances at all. Then he will be bashed for "under performing offensively"... this team sure likes to eat its young.

Cole thought his penalty was a "selfish" play and basically said so.We all know he's our best prospect,but you can't deny he's making many,many idiotic mistakes. He's got a full playoff and 1 1/2 season under his belt. He's doing things he never did before.

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Cole thought his penalty was a "selfish" play and basically said so.We all know he's our best prospect,but you can't deny he's making many,many idiotic mistakes. He's got a full playoff and 1 1/2 season under his belt. He's doing things he never did before.

It is a case of being too critical, imo. Do you really want me to list all the stupid and selfish penalties Pleks, AK, Cole, Gionta, etc.. have taken this season. I don't recall them being benched.

This can quickly turn into a " I can't do anything right" destruction of confidence or frustration. At some point, the coaches have to worry about the big mistakes while giving him some room to grow. Instead, it looks like he is under a microscope with the coachs and there is no way it is balanced.

Its hard to feel they are being fair when other D made worse errors in that game and not a thing was said to them.

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By the way... Subban has already scored more goals in the NHL then Larry Carriere did in his entire NHL career. If we are going to get a defenseman to "fix subban", the have the wrong "Larry" as assistant coach.

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By the way... Subban has already scored more goals in the NHL then Larry Carriere did in his entire NHL career. If we are going to get a defenseman to "fix subban", the have the wrong "Larry" as assistant coach.

The 'Larry' reference is fun, but I think this idea that a coach has to have been the exact same type of player as the guy he's coaching makes little sense. By that logic, Alain Vigneault cannot possibly coach the Sedins.

Further, the notion that it is BY DEFINITION a bad idea to bench a young player strikes me as completely false. Each player is different. If you just give Subban a blank cheque - 'no, you do not have to be defensively responsible; no, you do not have to sensibly pick and choose the times when you pinch; no, you do not have to be a team player' - you are rewarding him for being a selfish prima donna and arguably setting him up to fail to realize his full potential. I have no problem with the coaches taking a firm hand with him.

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It is a case of being too critical, imo. Do you really want me to list all the stupid and selfish penalties Pleks, AK, Cole, Gionta, etc.. have taken this season. I don't recall them being benched.

You have to be kidding...

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You have to be kidding...

I meant in that game.

for the record, I am not against benching players or even sitting them for a game or two. My concern is that "Larry" seems to be at war with PK, which is rarely the way to teach. PK had already been yelled at. He came out and defended the coach. He was playing a pretty good game and got a penalty... on the bench.

Seriously, is the leash that short now? Does the punishment fit the crime?

Larry Carriere has zero coaching experience. If he had demonstrated his ability to coach, I might have some respect for him. So far, I have seen him railing against a player for a minor mistake right in the middle of a game on TV. Not railing against "the teams effort", but railing against PK individually. Take it behind closed doors and have at it. How about spending time with the video and teaching while building a working relationship? It sure seems like RC has handed Carriere the keys to PK and I don't think he knows what the hell he is doing.

I am waiting for the next shoe to drop.. wait until Emelin misses a few big checks and gets out of position. Will he be castigated on the bench.. told to "stop hitting" and play positional hockey...

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The 'Larry' reference is fun, but I think this idea that a coach has to have been the exact same type of player as the guy he's coaching makes little sense. By that logic, Alain Vigneault cannot possibly coach the Sedins.

Further, the notion that it is BY DEFINITION a bad idea to bench a young player strikes me as completely false. Each player is different. If you just give Subban a blank cheque - 'no, you do not have to be defensively responsible; no, you do not have to sensibly pick and choose the times when you pinch; no, you do not have to be a team player' - you are rewarding him for being a selfish prima donna and arguably setting him up to fail to realize his full potential. I have no problem with the coaches taking a firm hand with him.

Except I am not seeing any of that behavior. We are talking about a defenseman who has toned down his offensive game and is a plus player on a mediocre team. He makes mistakes and takes bad penalties on occassion, but I could say that about a few players who seem to have the blank check. I am looking for some balance. If the leash is too short, you don't learn, you rebel.

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Why are we talking about Larry Carriere, when its Randy Ladoucer who coaches the defence, and its Randy Ladoucer who had the two "high profile" incidents with PK recently?

The yelling in practice and the incident on the bench were both Ladoucer.

Also note Ladoucer is a much more experienced coach than Carierre with both NHL and AHL assistant experience, and had a much better career than Carriere.

Also of note Ladoucer has been an assistant all season... and was not brought in when Martin was fired like Carriere was.

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I'm fundamentally not a fan of getting all worked up over coaching decision X or Y, because we don't know what's going on behind the scenes. Sure, if PK is a great young kid, anxious to learn and committed to the team system and so forth, then benching him for one mistake seems harsh. But I for one can certainly imagine the brash and yappy PK being a constant challenge from a coaching point of view, a cocky punk who needs strong correction as part of the maturation process. Recall that Martin benched PK for five straight games and, as far as anybody can see, despite much fan hysteria at the time it did him nothing but good. If the kid is not a team player, the coaches have to make him one, or else all of our hopes for him are going to go up in smoke.

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I still believe it's less of a "Subban is not a team player" and more "Subban doesn't get along with the coaching staff".

It was pretty clear that two guys were not having a good time with the coaching staff. Cammalleri and Subban. Cam gets traded, Subban is now in supposed trading rumours.

This is the worst Habs coaching staff since the rookie string of the mid/late 90s (Tremblay, Therrien, etc.) and those coaching staffs had rookie casualties as well. It'd be nice if we didn't lose players over it.

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I still believe it's less of a "Subban is not a team player" and more "Subban doesn't get along with the coaching staff".

It was pretty clear that two guys were not having a good time with the coaching staff. Cammalleri and Subban. Cam gets traded, Subban is now in supposed trading rumours.

This is the worst Habs coaching staff since the rookie string of the mid/late 90s (Tremblay, Therrien, etc.) and those coaching staffs had rookie casualties as well. It'd be nice if we didn't lose players over it.

It goes much deeper than the coaching staff imo.But PK isn't a star yet,though he's treated like one.

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PK was in Belleville on the weekend watching his brothers and chatting with people. I didn't get to talk to him, but I did talk to a couple former teammates. They were adament that while PK's personality may not jibe with some quieter guys, any talk of him being cancer in a room is just plain BS. They said PK is the kind of guy who will do anything for his teammates. He always blames himself first and sticks up for others, including his coaches.

He has had a couple of run ins with the coaches, but that is true for most players at one point or another. My concern about Carriere goes beyond PK. I don't like him on the bench because he might be providing input into PG. I don't trust his view. End of story.

I do believe that 90 percent of all the issues with PK are pure media driven. If he gets yelled at at practice, its on anti-chambre, etc. If Emelin gets yelled at in the next drill, you here nothing.

Still, it is quite clear that the coaches have PK on an extremely tight leash. I think it is too tight if they don't give it some slack soon. I don't want them straggling the enthusiasm out of him, nor the confidence. My hope is the all star break does them all some good and they start fresh this week. Unfortunately, the media in Montreal will continue to make this a story as long as possible. Next we will here he spends too long taking a dump and the smell bothers his team mates, according to an unnamed source....

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I still believe it's less of a "Subban is not a team player" and more "Subban doesn't get along with the coaching staff".

It was pretty clear that two guys were not having a good time with the coaching staff. Cammalleri and Subban. Cam gets traded, Subban is now in supposed trading rumours.

This is the worst Habs coaching staff since the rookie string of the mid/late 90s (Tremblay, Therrien, etc.) and those coaching staffs had rookie casualties as well. It'd be nice if we didn't lose players over it.

:lol: Sure didn't take long for the same old anti-coach arguments to crop up. Old wine, new bottle.

Let me ask the Subban defenders - by which I mean people who freak out whenever the coaches seem to get tough with PK, because Lord knows I love PK too - whether they think Larry Robinson, Guy Lapointe, Serge Savard and Chris Chelios were allowed simply to do whatever the hell they liked in terms of taking selfish penalties, ignoring the system, taking excessively long shifts, and rushing whenever the mood struck. If you think that's the case then I've got the Champlain Bridge to sell you, falling concrete chunks and all.

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Let me ask the Subban defenders - by which I mean people who freak out whenever the coaches seem to get tough with PK, because Lord knows I love PK too - whether they think Larry Robinson, Guy Lapointe, Serge Savard and Chris Chelios were allowed simply to do whatever the hell they liked in terms of taking selfish penalties, ignoring the system, taking excessively long shifts, and rushing whenever the mood struck. If you think that's the case then I've got the Champlain Bridge to sell you, falling concrete chunks and all.

Funny you mention Chelios. His words.

Chelios: Being traded by Montreal was a big shock. I understand why they traded me; I think after they traded me everybody who was captain got traded, whether it was Mike Keane, Vinny Damphousse or whoever. You know what it's like, when things don't go well, someone is going to take the fall when you lose out early in the playoffs. I believe in my own heart I was a little immature at the time and I wasn't ready to be captain of a team like that. It was a big responsibility and I don't think I handled it very well. I wish they had been a little more patient with me, but everything happens for a reason. I got married a year later, started a family and really settled down. It was a stage in my life where Montreal and I was a single young guy. You're living a dream.

Chelios was 28 when Montreal traded him and he admits to being immature and not handling his responsibilities properly. And we're complaining about Subban as "not a team player" at 21.

Cunnyworth and co. are going to do whatever it takes to save their jobs. That means deflecting blame. Not saying Subban hasn't been irresponsible or that he is too good to be disciplined. I just remember this talk happening when the guy who plays net for Montreal was a little younger.

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Rushed home to do this, but you stole my thunder Dlbair..... Guess my streak ends at 1 game, just like the Habs.

(Not that there was ever a doubt of that)

You going to try to extend your streak to 2 with tonight's GDT?

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Funny you mention Chelios. His words.

Chelios was 28 when Montreal traded him and he admits to being immature and not handling his responsibilities properly. And we're complaining about Subban as "not a team player" at 21.

Cunnyworth and co. are going to do whatever it takes to save their jobs. That means deflecting blame. Not saying Subban hasn't been irresponsible or that he is too good to be disciplined. I just remember this talk happening when the guy who plays net for Montreal was a little younger.

The Chelios quote is great, a standing reminder of what happens when teams lose patience with kids.

Look, to me, this is all part of that growing-up process. You act like a punk, like you're too big for the team/system, the coaches have to pull you back or they're not doing their jobs. When Price was going through this process, he learned the hard way: he lost his starting job. And if that hadn't happened, if he'd simply been given the starter's job as an entitlement come what may, he might still be the immature kid he was then. What PK is going through this season is analogous to that. Frankly, I think it's unfortunate that this team needs him so badly, because it restricts the coaches' options in terms of benching him and sitting him out.

None of this should mean they are war with you or that PK has to be shipped out of town. If PK gets traded to another team - at least, a team with a winning culture - he will find the coaches doing exactly the same thing sooner or later, unless the shock of being traded is itself enough to make him adjust his ways.

Of course a coach can misjudge a player and poison the milk altogether. But it would be very surprising if the coaches have spitefully decided to go to war with the best defenceman they've got. In other words, we have to assume the coaching staff is not totally incompetent. Their tough love approach to PK is NOT self-evidently proof of that incompetence, despite what hysterical fans think.

No team ever won anything by letting great young players do whatever they want. That's what it boils down to for me.

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The Chelios quote is great, a standing reminder of what happens when teams lose patience with kids.

Look, to me, this is all part of that growing-up process. You act like a punk, like you're too big for the team/system, the coaches have to pull you back or they're not doing their jobs. When Price was going through this process, he learned the hard way: he lost his starting job. And if that hadn't happened, if he'd simply been given the starter's job as an entitlement come what may, he might still be the immature kid he was then. What PK is going through this season is analogous to that. Frankly, I think it's unfortunate that this team needs him so badly, because it restricts the coaches' options in terms of benching him and sitting him out.

None of this should mean they are war with you or that PK has to be shipped out of town. If PK gets traded to another team - at least, a team with a winning culture - he will find the coaches doing exactly the same thing sooner or later, unless the shock of being traded is itself enough to make him adjust his ways.

Of course a coach can misjudge a player and poison the milk altogether. But it would be very surprising if the coaches have spitefully decided to go to war with the best defenceman they've got. In other words, we have to assume the coaching staff is not totally incompetent. Their tough love approach to PK is NOT self-evidently proof of that incompetence, despite what hysterical fans think.

No team ever won anything by letting great young players do whatever they want. That's what it boils down to for me.

Would be great if the Habs had a young talented guy with an attitude like Towes (Capatin Serious) would help balance things

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I have no problem with tough love from the coaches towards Subban. I just hope that all this media crap doesn't eventually lead to him leaving town via requested trade or the GM having enough of it. I literally want to punch every reporter who says anything about "Subban" and "controversy" in the same sentence.

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I have no problem with tough love from the coaches towards Subban. I just hope that all this media crap doesn't eventually lead to him leaving town via requested trade or the GM having enough of it. I literally want to punch every reporter who says anything about "Subban" and "controversy" in the same sentence.

The media is the problem with PK, they are portraying him as some sort of problem child who is inherently dirty.

The fact he hasn't turned into a Grabs or Riberio or SK kind of cancer is a testament to his character in my opinion.

Love the kid.

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