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alexstream

What took so long to understand that we had/have to get bigger?

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If you honestly think Begin was more physical than Moen, you should ask why every team in the NHL is willing to give more for Moen than Begin has ever been worth.

Because Moen is a better player. Begin had more hits/gm than Moen ever did,and there's no doubting that Begin played every game 110%,with more energy than most players in the league not just Moen. Like with the Price/Halak crowd,just because you say one player is better at something,doesn't mean your dissing the other player. I think Halak is a better goalie,but I also think Price is very good. Not an insult,just opinion.What a bunch of sensitive fans

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Because Moen is a better player. Begin had more hits/gm than Moen ever did,and there's no doubting that Begin played every game 110%,with more energy than most players in the league not just Moen. Like with the Price/Halak crowd,just because you say one player is better at something,doesn't mean your dissing the other player. I think Halak is a better goalie,but I also think Price is very good. Not an insult,just opinion.What a bunch of sensitive fans

This.

Begin was recklessly physical, and while there is a place for that in the NHL, Moen offers up a lot more on the ice to warrant a bigger paycheque.

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This.

Begin was recklessly physical, and while there is a place for that in the NHL, Moen offers up a lot more on the ice to warrant a bigger paycheque.

WTF does one player being more physical have to do with the other player being better and/or getting a bigger check.And if it's paycheck you're going by,then you're saying Gomez is our top player,and one of the best in the league. I respect that opinion of yours,but I disagree with it.

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I'd like that big centre, but Id like to keep Pleks too.

Ideally you get a top 5 pick, take one of Grigorenko or Galchenyuk, and you have that big centre going forward.

Move DD to wing.

A Centre line with Pleks - G or G - Eller as the top 3 should be big enough and skilled enough. Eventually, the kid is gonna surpass Pleks and push him into the number 2 spot anyway.

Id like to keep Plekanec and am a fan, but to get a bigger top centre of equal value or better, that is worth trading for, he would be bout only top forward with a fair salary that another team might like?

If DD was moved to wing, sounds good, but again at his cheap salary and he good production, he might be a wanted valued commodity, that i think the Habs could do without, with a spot for Leblanc needed and most lkely Gallagher/Bournival in 2013, if not sooner if do well in AHL? (but i tend to overly optomistic with most prospects)

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WTF does one player being more physical have to do with the other player being better and/or getting a bigger check.And if it's paycheck you're going by,then you're saying Gomez is our top player,and one of the best in the league. I respect that opinion of yours,but I disagree with it.

Uh, unless I misread what you wrote... I was agreeing with you.

It looked like what you were saying was that Begin was a more physical player, but Moen is the better player overall.

No?

And Moen does deserve more money than Begin.

No?

What any of that has to do with Gomez I have no idea. He obviously is not a top player in the league and doesn't deserve the money he was handed.

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Agreed. I don't buy that he's the best offensive C in years...was only commenting on Stream's post.

And for what its worth...it's also sad to say Pleks might be the best C in years.

Frankly it's sad we haven't had an 85 point C since when?? Hell, name the last 100 point Hab...how sad is that? I can live with good balanced teams like the last 2 cup winners but we rarely even get that these days...

I may sound like a pessimist lately but we don't have much to be excited about other then 3 things: Price, Subban and MaxPac...Even the farm system looks only okay...Sure Beaulieu, LeBlanc look like they good be good and maybe Kristo and Tinordi...after that it's sketchy. This was a top 5 farm system for years until recently...shouldn't we be better today and how did it become a bottom 6 farm team if we weren't exactly winning (and thus drafting late). Not actually looking for reasons, I know how/why...just venting...

It's no surprise. Elite talent is rare when you don't pick in the top 10 of the draft. The only high pick Montreal's had in in years was Price and he turned out to be the cornerstone of the franchise. Finding Pacioretty and Subban in the late first and second respectively was a nice bonus but if you want an 85+ point center (there are what, 5-10 in the league?), you aren't likely to find one without a top 10 pick. This season they'll get a golden opportunity to turn their organization upside down. They need to draft one of those NHL ready stars that have been becoming more common in recent years. If they mess up this pick, they're screwed.

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It's no surprise. Elite talent is rare when you don't pick in the top 10 of the draft. The only high pick Montreal's had in in years was Price and he turned out to be the cornerstone of the franchise. Finding Pacioretty and Subban in the late first and second respectively was a nice bonus but if you want an 85+ point center (there are what, 5-10 in the league?), you aren't likely to find one without a top 10 pick. This season they'll get a golden opportunity to turn their organization upside down. They need to draft one of those NHL ready stars that have been becoming more common in recent years. If they mess up this pick, they're screwed.

I hear what your saying but its been 20 odd years since we had a C of that caliber...and you could argue a lot longer since 85 point C's in the late 80's early 90's were a pretty easy find. The organization hasn't had a legit superstar since Roy or a legit superstar forward (let alone C)!since god only knows...by superstar I mean legit top tier talent - top 3 in their position give or take.

Its not just homegrown talent...we could have signed those UFA's or traded for a player of that quality. I realise you can win without a real star but more often then not teams have either a couple top players or a glut of stars just under that tier.

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I agree it's rare, but let's face it the habs have done a lousy job of evaluating centers. Richards, carter, Giroux (all picked by a single team !!!), getzlaf, datsyuk, elias, oshie, stasny, krejci, kopitar, parise, keslar, pavelski. we're not top ten picks. I realize these are not all elite centers, but are upgrades from the ones we drafted. Other then pleks and koivu in the early 90's, name me a decent centre we picked and developed. We did pick grabs, but gave him away.

For some reason this organization has done a real crappy job when it comes to selecting or valuing centers or guys with size.

Other teams trade picks to get the guys they want at the draft, we only seem to do that for US defenseman.

It's no surprise. Elite talent is rare when you don't pick in the top 10 of the draft. The only high pick Montreal's had in in years was Price and he turned out to be the cornerstone of the franchise. Finding Pacioretty and Subban in the late first and second respectively was a nice bonus but if you want an 85+ point center (there are what, 5-10 in the league?), you aren't likely to find one without a top 10 pick. This season they'll get a golden opportunity to turn their organization upside down. They need to draft one of those NHL ready stars that have been becoming more common in recent years. If they mess up this pick, they're screwed.

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You could push it back further. The Canadiens had to trade to get Peter Mahovolich and, later, Bobby Smith, Kirk Muller and Pierre Turgeon. Really, the last of our home-grown elite C with size might have been Jean Beliveau (!). Wickenheiser was supposed to be that guy, of course, but let's not go there. It's almost as though the flip side of our almost unbelievable ability to acquire hot/great goalie after hot/great goalie (often plucked out of nowhere, just in time to lead the team on a run) is balanced out by our incapacity to get ourselves these power centremen.

We have made a lot of stupid trades relating to C as well. Former players from the dynasty years have commented on how the Mahovolich trade took something out of the life of that great team. We traded Chelios for a washed-up Denis Savard. That jackanapse Houle managed to squander Turgeon and later Damphousse. Ribs, Grabs, thrown away. Gainey almost moved Price + Pleks (was Subban also included?) for Lecavalier, then dealt McDonagh for Gomer Pyle.

Yet it's not all bad. If you look at the last 15 years, we did draft Ribeiro, Plekanec, and Grabovski - all legitimate top-2 C. (If Desharnais continues to improve, we may be able to add him to that mix). Throw Koivu into the hopper, and there's no reason we could not have had Koivu-Ribs succeeded by Plekanec-Ribs/Grabs...not exactly overpowering but still pretty dangerous, certainly better than the Plekanec-Gomez mishap of last season, and especially if you factor out the tragic destruction of Koivu's knee which left him a shadow of the superstar he would have been. The real problem down the middle may not be quite so much drafting per se as that we literally gave away Ribeiro and Grabs. These mistakes then compelled the acquisition of Gomez, who would have been a good for us if he hadn't suddenly forgotten how to play hockey.

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The moral of the story is that we need to focus on big skilled centers when we come to the draft table. We should keep picking them till we get a couple three to stick. Need has to be factored in and not relegated to later rounds.

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What I find funny in this whole scenario is Gauthier now knows we need to get bigger so acquired kaberle and will be parting with Moen, Gill, ostitsyn, perhaps Darche as well.

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What I find funny in this whole scenario is Gauthier now knows we need to get bigger so acquired kaberle and will be parting with Moen, Gill, ostitsyn, perhaps Darche as well.

I would consider keeping Moen IF he was slotted for 4th line duties next year with White and a Thornton,Neil,Rupp type.It would be a great 4th line you could play for 10/min/gm and fill numerous roles. Moen averages 15pts/80gms over his career,and once again shows the complete ineptness of the Gainey/Gauthier regime that he's been in the top 9 this year,and even in the top 6 last year.I can't imagine any contender having a player like that in the top 6 or 9.

He's a great 4th liner,just like Pleks being a great #2 ctr,expected to be #1

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What I find funny in this whole scenario is Gauthier now knows we need to get bigger so acquired kaberle and will be parting with Moen, Gill, ostitsyn, perhaps Darche as well.

If the Habs unload those impending UFAs for assets, I'd be thrilled, since they rarely ever do that. I wouldn't be upset if both Moen and Kostitsyn returned, but Gill and Darche...I'd prefer them moved.

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If the Habs unload those impending UFAs for assets, I'd be thrilled, since they rarely ever do that. I wouldn't be upset if both Moen and Kostitsyn returned, but Gill and Darche...I'd prefer them moved.

Let's face it, we are stuck with Darche for the rest of our lives. After his playing days he will come aboard as an assistant coach, then get promoted to head coach. Then he will get fired from coaching and hired on with RDS and work there for 30 years. By that time, there will be a fountain of youth discovered and he will do it all over again. And I will complain every single time I see him.

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Darche has 0 value he brings nothing to the table that a pile of old ahlers that every team has in their system.

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Darche has 0 value he brings nothing to the table that a pile of old ahlers that every team has in their system.

Agree completely. Just commenting on the lament that we will "move Darche".

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I personally don't see Darche here past this season. I beleive he will playu out his days with the team and then will be sent packing. He'll likely sign a 2-wAY deal somewhere and good for him.

Next year we have White and Blunden who'll likely form 2/3 of a 4th line. I guess the question is whether White will remain a winger or whether he'll go back to the center position but either way I like the forming of that line.

I would be happy with say a Conboy-White-Blunden 4th line next season. Or even using Schultz as a 4th line RWer. He is being used on a shut down line in Hamilton this season so maybe his skills are being honed right now.

The key for me is what we are going to do with that 3rd line. We have Eller and now need to find 2 bigger 2-way players to compliment Eller in a defensive role. So the question is; who is available?

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Leblanc i am guessing will be the RW with Eller next year. Decent size, nose for the net, good defensively.

They need a LW similar to oddly enough Travis Moen. Maybe they could find a younger version of him via trades.

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Its not just homegrown talent...we could have signed those UFA's or traded for a player of that quality. I realise you can win without a real star but more often then not teams have either a couple top players or a glut of stars just under that tier.

A player that's top 3 in his position becomes a UFA once every 5 to 10 years. The odds of acquiring one by trade aren't much better. You always have to wait for one of those players to suffer an injury, have an off-year, or develop a reputation for being a terrible team player before his team even considers trading him.

I agree it's rare, but let's face it the habs have done a lousy job of evaluating centers. Richards, carter, Giroux (all picked by a single team !!!), getzlaf, datsyuk, elias, oshie, stasny, krejci, kopitar, parise, keslar, pavelski. we're not top ten picks. I realize these are not all elite centers, but are upgrades from the ones we drafted. Other then pleks and koivu in the early 90's, name me a decent centre we picked and developed. We did pick grabs, but gave him away. For some reason this organization has done a real crappy job when it comes to selecting or valuing centers or guys with size. Other teams trade picks to get the guys they want at the draft, we only seem to do that for US defenseman.

I think almost every team in the league struggles to get elite players and big first line centers. Having drafted Koivu, Plekanec, Ribeiro, Grabovski, Leblanc, and signing Desharnais, I think Montreal's ability to develop centers in recent years has been pretty typical or mediocre. That's four guys right there who have proven to be capable of 50-70 points in the NHL. The Habs lost two of them because they were headcases. There are exceptions but if you want an 85+ point player, your best bet is to have a terrible season. An even better bet is to have multiple terrible seasons in a row like the Pens, Hawks, and Oilers did. If you're consistently in the playoffs, you can't expect to draft better than 2nd line players. You might luck out once every 5 years but you can't expect it.

Edited by BTH

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A player that's top 3 in his position becomes a UFA once every 5 to 10 years. The odds of acquiring one by trade aren't much better. You always have to wait for one of those players to suffer an injury, have an off-year, or develop a reputation for being a terrible team player before his team even considers trading him.

I think almost every team in the league struggles to get elite players and big first line centers. Having drafted Koivu, Plekanec, Ribeiro, Grabovski, Leblanc, and signing Desharnais, I think Montreal's ability to develop centers in recent years has been pretty typical or mediocre. That's four guys right there who have proven to be capable of 50-70 points in the NHL. The Habs lost two of them because they were headcases. There are exceptions but if you want an 85+ point player, your best bet is to have a terrible season. An even better bet is to have multiple terrible seasons in a row like the Pens, Hawks, and Oilers did. If you're consistently in the playoffs, you can't expect to draft better than 2nd line players. You might luck out once every 5 years but you can't expect it.

I don't buy the 5-10 year comment...top tier guys DO get moved. Debate whether they are top 3 or 4 at their position if you want...but big names do move around via trades and UFA. To not have addressed this in 2 decades is brutal. Go all the way back through the 80's, and early 90's, when 100 point seasons were quite common...how many did the Habs have? Look it up.

I agree the draft is the best way to build...but they CAN trade for prospects, high picks, etc and augment that with UFA acquisitions. We just bring in the mid tier UFA's (Cammy aside) and a bunch of 3rd, 4th line guys.

Someone needs to admit to a rebuild, stop the "retooling" BS, and BUILD the team...

Gainey was getting close with a strong farm system that only lacked 1 or 2 high end offensive talents. I actually think he was closer with that system then many realise or would admit right now. Imagine another couple guys of Pleks calibre, and MaxPacs age/controlable, to go with guys like Cole, Cammy (Bourque now obviously)...sure we might have had a bad season, or two, in the middle of this build but it'd be worth it today with a legit top 2 lines, top young goalie and likely strong top 4 D. Instead we have a broken club, mediocre farm system, mediocre cap position, etc...and the clubs answer will likely be to make a few desperation deals, overpay a few mid-tier UFA's, and try to get the 8th playoff spot yet again. Sounds like the Leafs organization...but at least Burke is moving them in a better direction (much like he fixed Gauthier's mess in Anaheim btw). God I hate the Leafs. I'd rather we suck for the rest of this season and next, traded guys like Cammy/Gionta/Cole for even more high picks and rapidly rebuild through the draft to get a young nucleus in place for Price, Subban, Pacioretty, Plekanec before they are gone too.

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Trade Cole and Gionta for picks? Sounds like Columbus or the Islanders to me. Thank God that's not how this team operates.

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Revisionist history on Anaheim there.

First it was Gauthier who was fired in 2002 and replaced with Bryan Murray.

It was 95% Gauthiers team that was one win away from the 2003 Stanley Cup, including key re-acquisition Paul Kariya, and the goalie he stole from Calgary, JS Giguere, and a key guy who will come into play for Burke, Rob Niedermayer.

Murray then took over and drafted Getzlaf and Perry, signed selanne, got Penner and built the forwards.

Burke then came in and really only made two major changes to the Ducks. He signed Niedermayer despite New Jersey matching the offer, because Scott wanted to play with Rob and promised his mom after beating Rob in the 03 final. He also traded for Pronger, cause Pronger was banging a reporter in Edmonton and his wife demanded a trade. But the key fwds and goalie on that club were acquired by Gauthier and Murray. He didn't clean anyone's mess, and some might say he inherited a better Ducks roster than it was when he left.

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Trade Cole and Gionta for picks? Sounds like Columbus or the Islanders to me. Thank God that's not how this team operates.

It makes sense. A real contender would give up a huge payoff to get Cole. We arent close to being a contender ,so why even bother keeping him. In 2-3 years,we may not like his contract. Gio,we're stuck with. No NHL GM is taking that contract

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Revisionist history on Anaheim there.

First it was Gauthier who was fired in 2002 and replaced with Bryan Murray.

It was 95% Gauthiers team that was one win away from the 2003 Stanley Cup, including key re-acquisition Paul Kariya, and the goalie he stole from Calgary, JS Giguere, and a key guy who will come into play for Burke, Rob Niedermayer.

Murray then took over and drafted Getzlaf and Perry, signed selanne, got Penner and built the forwards.

Burke then came in and really only made two major changes to the Ducks. He signed Niedermayer despite New Jersey matching the offer, because Scott wanted to play with Rob and promised his mom after beating Rob in the 03 final. He also traded for Pronger, cause Pronger was banging a reporter in Edmonton and his wife demanded a trade. But the key fwds and goalie on that club were acquired by Gauthier and Murray. He didn't clean anyone's mess, and some might say he inherited a better Ducks roster than it was when he left.

"Murray then took over and drafted Getzlaf and Perry, signed selanne, got Penner and built the forwards.

Burke then came in and really only made two major changes to the Ducks"

So Goat was responsible for 95% of Anaheims roster,but not these 6 guys. Um,they don't get a sniff without Prong and Nieds,nevermind Murrays pickups

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"Murray then took over and drafted Getzlaf and Perry, signed selanne, got Penner and built the forwards.

Burke then came in and really only made two major changes to the Ducks"

So Goat was responsible for 95% of Anaheims roster,but not these 6 guys. Um,they don't get a sniff without Prong and Nieds,nevermind Murrays pickups

your reading comprehension failed. Goat left in 2002. The team that was 95% him including kariya, gigure, niedermayer, etc lost in game 7 of the 2003 finals.

The 2007 cup winner was Gauthiers goalie, + mostly murray + 2 D Burke lucked into acquiring as they fell into his lap cause he had Rob Niedermayer and cause Pronger's wife demanded out of Edmonton.

  • Upvote 1

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