Permanent Trade Proposal Thread

[ehjay]

10 hours ago, Metallica said:

The problem is this organization and some fans rely on the pipe dream that just because we have Price and if he is healthy then that alone is good enough.

 

The reality is that this organization has no depth to make a playoff run or try and win a cup. This team has to many holes to fill and the answer isn't in free agency with a weak market. This answer isn't in any trades because our biggest trade chip is Pacioretty and him alone wont fill all the holes with a trade.

 

This year was a step in the right direction with our draft, with the hiring of some really good coaches. Next year could be even bigger step with a deep draft when it comes to centers. Plus the free agent market next year could be deep also.

 

Like I said in a earlier post if we could get another top 5 pick plus add 1 or 2 more 1st round picks to the mix, we can fill more holes on the team. Plus  see who's there in free agency, we could turn this around in 2 years time.

 

But and this is a big but ...... We need to realize who this team really is.

Price is No Patrick (wink! wink!)

MaxP has never been thought of as a Super Star on the wing, so no; true that.

Probably gonna have to package 1st round pick with MaxP to get #1 (unicorn) Center and forget about protecting the pick for lottery and Free agent dont feel to be here unless the payday is behond prefered destination. Call it taxes or language or pot holes on (and in) the streets.

This last one is loaded for me. If we get a #1C by trade we wont (imho) have that 1st round top 5 pick and I have no trust in MB to pull the Boston 3picks in row from a few years back. nor do I think he can pull a deal to have Burkes Sedin magic and sadly I have no faith he can pull a Kordic for Courtall from back in the days. 

Sry for the glumfish "attitute" but MB has been using this "excuse" too long now "No More" of this serving for me Thank You, I've had enough :/

[DON]

12 hours ago, Metallica said:

Buffalo had O'Reilly where did they finish last year?

So, O'Reilly isn't an upgrade at centre from last year?

[Metallica]

22 minutes ago, DON said:

So, O'Reilly isn't an upgrade at centre from last year?

To be honest he isn't a 1st line center, and he isn't the lone answer to our center problems. Is he a upgrade yes, but do I want to give up what buffalo wants for him no.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

The price for ROR does seem irresponsibly high. 

 

But if we were to land ROR for a defensible return, it's immaterial if he's less than the fabled unicorn C. What matters is that he's a legit top-6 C and therefore represents a gargantuan upgrade compared to the fishwaste we currently use at that position.

 

Unless and until we develop a clear-cut #1C from within, the realistic path to improvement down the middle will come, not from the mythical unicorn, but from *depth* at C. For instance, if we could roll out (say) something like ROR, Nuge, and Danault as our top-3 C, we would not resemble Crosby-Malkin, but we would be quite a strong team up front. 

 

I've always believed this to be the only alternative. Roll three lines, none of which have superstars, but all of which are high-quality. Back in 2014, we approximated this model and actually came within striking distance of the Finals, 

[TheDriveFor25]

22 minutes ago, Metallica said:

To be honest he isn't a 1st line center, and he isn't the lone answer to our center problems. Is he a upgrade yes, but do I want to give up what buffalo wants for him no.

 

He's a first line centre for sure. He doesn't put up points like the top tier guys, but on more than half of the teams in the NHL he's a first line centre. 

People also underestimate the effect a good player can have on the younger guys.. you want Poehling and Koktaniemi learning from a struggling Drouin or ROR?

 

 

[dlbalr]

16 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

The price for ROR does seem irresponsibly high.

 

 

Is it though?  A 1st, 2nd, and good/very good prospect for a 27-year-old top-20 centre that's signed for five years doesn't seem like overkill to me.  You can convince me that it's not a price Montreal should pay given where they are but I don't think that's an outlandish ask at all.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

5 minutes ago, dlbalr said:

 

Is it though?  A 1st, 2nd, and good/very good prospect for a 27-year-old top-20 centre that's signed for five years doesn't seem like overkill to me.  You can convince me that it's not a price Montreal should pay given where they are but I don't think that's an outlandish ask at all.

 

Fair enough. I guess what I mean is that it seems irresponsible for the *Habs* to pay that price. It comes back to what the wider organizational vision is (assuming them to have one). If the primary goal is to get back to respectability in the short term, then that is definitely a move to consider. If the goal is to build a contender, then it probably isn't.

[DON]

44 minutes ago, Metallica said:

To be honest he isn't a 1st line center, and he isn't the lone answer to our center problems. Is he a upgrade yes, but do I want to give up what buffalo wants for him no.

Didn't say he was a top #1 centre, didn't say was lone answer. Having Weber healthy on the PP and PK, will be a big upgrade on last year, add in a healthy Price and you know they wont end up near bottom of standings. 

[hab29RETIRED]

4 minutes ago, DON said:

Didn't say he was a top #1 centre, didn't say was lone answer. Having Weber healthy on the PP and PK, will be a big upgrade on last year, add in a healthy Price and you know they wont end up near bottom of standings. 

So that’s the goal now??? That’s all we want to aspire to be??? Not at the bottom of the standings???

[DON]

10 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Fair enough. I guess what I mean is that it seems irresponsible for the *Habs* to pay that price. It comes back to what the wider organizational vision is (assuming them to have one). If the primary goal is to get back to respectability in the short term, then that is definitely a move to consider. If the goal is to build a contender, then it probably isn't.

So you want the young finn and Poehling to jump in as top 2 centres next year with Danault as next best? Or you want a stop gap like Spezza for a year?

4 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

So that’s the goal now??? That’s all we want to aspire to be??? Not at the bottom of the standings???

A pleasant morning to you as well. 

[DON]

7 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

So that’s the goal now??? That’s all we want to aspire to be??? Not at the bottom of the standings???

Sorry, it was in reference to trading a top #1 pick as part of package, when I would guess will more likely be mid 1st pick, which wouldn't  be that painful to part with.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

Deal makes sense for St. Louis, who wants a defensively responsible centre behind Schenn. Makes little sense for us. 

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

8 minutes ago, DON said:

So you want the young finn and Poehling to jump in as top 2 centres next year with Danault as next best? Or you want a stop gap like Spezza for a year?

 

 

I don't want any prospect to "jump in" unless they are ready for the NHL. I'm rather worried that the team is going to rush Kotkaneimi in particular. I read some scouting reports that said he was a couple of years away, then read a Hab - I forget if it was Timmins or Bergevin - saying he might be ready next year, and that's a bit concerning.

 

I agree that it is realistic to see the Habs as closer to a mid-range team next season, assuming they can patch over at least some of the lineup holes. I'm on board for Spezza, for example. And that 1st pick could be closer to a 15th overall pick. But giving the Sabres that, plus a 2nd, plus Poehling or Scherbak for ROR still seems a bit crazy.

 

4 minutes ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

Deal makes sense for St. Louis, who wants a defensively responsible centre behind Schenn. Makes little sense for us. 

 

It does make sense for them, precisely because they want to contend right now. For us, even if we add ROR we'd still be some years away from contention, so he'd likely be on the downside by the time we reached that point.

[DON]

46 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 For us, even if we add ROR we'd still be some years away from contention, so he'd likely be on the downside by the time we reached that point.

[xXx..CK..xXx]

13 minutes ago, DON said:

Seriously. It’s going to be a long season next year watching the Habs with everyone already having taught me how to be a smart fan, knowing the Habs have no chance at contention. Since they don’t have a chance, apparently we may as well get worse until the team just looks completely different. Then we’ll have a chance. 

 

It’s amusing to think that almost no one who discusses contention thinks that y’know, a team can simply get better season after season and work itself into that position. No, now we must no longer try to do what people have been complaining about and no longer try to fill our positions of need. Ryan O’Reilly would be a great addition to the team. I too, just worry about what would have to be sent in return, but for different reasons. 

[Metallica]

1 hour ago, DON said:

Didn't say he was a top #1 centre, didn't say was lone answer. Having Weber healthy on the PP and PK, will be a big upgrade on last year, add in a healthy Price and you know they wont end up near bottom of standings. 

We got to stop with this pipe dream that a healthy Price turns this team into cup champions. 

 

Thats why we will never win.

[huzer]

8 minutes ago, Metallica said:

We got to stop with this pipe dream that a healthy Price turns this team into cup champions. 

 

Thats why we will never win.

 

All he said was bottom of the standings. Cup champions was not stated or implied. I agree with his assessment, a healthy Price and Weber make a difference on the team, and while it doesn't guarantee a playoff spot, it should also imply that the Habs are not an automatic lottery pick team.

[DON]

6 minutes ago, Metallica said:

We got to stop with this pipe dream that a healthy Price turns this team into cup champions. 

I think you are the one who must have the pipe out today, to come up with that from the posts you quoted?

[xXx..CK..xXx]

The truth is Price is a very important piece of this team and there’s nothing wrong with that. There are other goalies in the league that are very important to their team as well. I don’t think there should be anyone who thinks that we are Stanley Cup contenders simply because we have Price. The facts point out that while it’s not necessarily entirely his fault, his numbers have gone down in the playoffs. Anyone who has followed his career, and I sure hope our “well respected” management has, should know this. There’s no reason for anyone to think we are automatically Stanley Cup contenders simply because we have Price. 

 

Should we be able to ice a competitive team most years because we have Price? I think so. Even this is in question, however, because while everyone is optimistic that Price will be healthy and play to his level, this is far from a guarantee. I’m actually leaning to the more skeptical side when it comes to Price right this minute. With that being said, we have a player like Ovechkin who can in any given year be the best player in the league. Now Ovechkin had a juggernaut of a team this year surrounding him, so this doesn’t imply that Price can win it all on his own. Au contraire. But it’s also completely possible that the team far surpassses expectations in any given year simply because we have a player of that caliber, who also happens to play an important position. 

 

I don’t think anyone should expect that we can win a Stanley Cup simply because we have a Price; but instead of thinking of it in a way such that having Price is an impingement because our organization can use him as a tool to hide deficiencies within our lineup, I think it brings some excitement to know we have a player of his capability, who can cause opposing teams to work around him during a full calendar year. 

[Commandant]

19 minutes ago, huzer said:

 

All he said was bottom of the standings. Cup champions was not stated or implied. I agree with his assessment, a healthy Price and Weber make a difference on the team, and while it doesn't guarantee a playoff spot, it should also imply that the Habs are not an automatic lottery pick team.

 

Is our goal not to be a lottery team?

 

or is our goal to win a Cup?

 

Do what is necessary to win a cup, not to chase mediocrity

[Machine of Loving Grace]

46 minutes ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

Seriously. It’s going to be a long season next year watching the Habs with everyone already having taught me how to be a smart fan, knowing the Habs have no chance at contention. Since they don’t have a chance, apparently we may as well get worse until the team just looks completely different. Then we’ll have a chance. 

 

It's not about smart fan/stupid fan.

 

You enjoy the game you want to. Will just wants the Habs to be competitive and doesn't care about what else because winning a Cup is rare. That's fine. I can't do that, but I don't begrudge him for that viewpoint.

 

But when you're discussing hockey with other people, and that's your viewpoint of what the team is? It's going to get friction. Because I don't mean to speak for many here, but a big reason we became Montreal Canadiens fans was due to a history of excellence. And since the 90s, we haven't seen it. And instead of just dropping the club and finding a new one, we stick around waiting for excellence to return. And don't believe it will with Bergevin.

 

So if you think this team is on course and a couple additions will get them to the Cup? Cool! Go with that! Don't let any of us bring you down for how you watch hockey and analyze it. But if you want to discuss your analysis, and it's rooted in fairy tales and jackpot hope, it's going to be disagreed on.

[Metallica]

The point is people think a healthy price makes this team different. It doesn't and people need to realize that. They're to many holes and issues with this team that a healthy Price and Weber wont fix. I would rather be a lottery pick team for 2-3 years and draft and develop elite players then just miss out on a playoff spot each year and come up with the same old excuse of injuries held us back. Oh if only Price was healthy all year oh if only Weber was healthy all year. This shit is getting tiring to hear every year. I want this team to be a power house again and it isn't going come doing the same things we been doing.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

9 minutes ago, Metallica said:

The point is people think a healthy price makes this team different. It doesn't and people need to realize that. They're to many holes and issues with this team that a healthy Price and Weber wont fix. I would rather be a lottery pick team for 2-3 years and draft and develop elite players then just miss out on a playoff spot each year and come up with the same old excuse of injuries held us back. Oh if only Price was healthy all year oh if only Weber was healthy all year. This shit is getting tiring to hear every year. I want this team to be a power house again and it isn't going come doing the same things we been doing.

 

2014-15 had a healthy Price. We barely beat Anderson in Ottawa after embarrassing the Hamburglar and then we went cold against Tampa. Our offence has taken a step back since then.

2016-17 had a healthy Price. We couldn't score against the Rangers in a low scoring series which people here have actually blamed Price on. Our offence has taken a step back since then.

[huzer]

1 hour ago, Commandant said:

 

Is our goal not to be a lottery team?

 

or is our goal to win a Cup?

 

Do what is necessary to win a cup, not to chase mediocrity

 

C'mon, now. I didn't say that was my goal. I was simply pointing out the hyperbole of the post. Don stating that Price and Weber will have a positive impact on the team (depending on your definition of positive) is true. A healthy Price and Weber = more wins. I realize with the current state of the roster, and the hopes of a lottery pick next year, that more wins is viewed by many to be detrimental to the future of the club. I did not say that, man, I'm going to be happy for the Habs to finish 7th worst next year!

 

It's much easier to debate the merits of tinkering with a roster that simply needs to defend its place amongst the league's elite. It's much more difficult to amicably debate the various methods a team can rebuild, retool, restock, tank, tinker, etc when the team has been in the dumps for a while. Especially when some folks don't even agree that the team has been in the dumps! As such, it seems more and more that simple statements that should be easily identifiable as a mere fact "the team is better with two of its premier players healthy" are misconstrued as being content with the status quo. The downside of NOT being content with the status quo, ironically, means that you better be content with it, it seems quite a few people want lottery picks for the next couple of years. So as long as there is an end game to being a piling steam of poo, it's all good.

 

[xXx..CK..xXx]

1 hour ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

It's not about smart fan/stupid fan.

 

You enjoy the game you want to. Will just wants the Habs to be competitive and doesn't care about what else because winning a Cup is rare. That's fine. I can't do that, but I don't begrudge him for that viewpoint.

 

But when you're discussing hockey with other people, and that's your viewpoint of what the team is? It's going to get friction. Because I don't mean to speak for many here, but a big reason we became Montreal Canadiens fans was due to a history of excellence. And since the 90s, we haven't seen it. And instead of just dropping the club and finding a new one, we stick around waiting for excellence to return. And don't believe it will with Bergevin.

 

So if you think this team is on course and a couple additions will get them to the Cup? Cool! Go with that! Don't let any of us bring you down for how you watch hockey and analyze it. But if you want to discuss your analysis, and it's rooted in fairy tales and jackpot hope, it's going to be disagreed on.

I once again stated last September, while many disagreed, that unless some drastic changes were made during the season itself, we had no chance of competing for a cup. I was one of the few who argued that we should have gone more “all in” and kept Radulov. Others were complaining about the taxes and that we would have to pay one million more, which incidentally I firmly stated that I would have. This standpoint is completely the opposite of what I’m being accused of now; that I want our team to stand by idly.

 

With Radulov, we were a playoff team. Because of the cap, it’s tough for a team to have every component to ice a competitive team. With that being said, come February and March there is the trade deadline. What the trade deadlines brings every year is excitement to many competitive teams because based on their current standings, they have a shot to do damage in the playoffs. Some of these teams sign players who the fan base never would have been discussing simply one summer before. This signing can put a non competitive team over the top. It’s not hope that it will happen, it is a realistic opportunity for any single playoff caliber team. 

 

What those who want to rebuild are completely overlooking is that while we may not be 1 or 2 off season moves from a Stanley Cup, we could be 1 or 2 off season moves in addition to 2 or 3 astute trade deadline moves from being a competitive team in only one year. I’m fine with everyone disagreeing.

 

What those fans who want to blow everything up want me to do is to expect no decent free agents to want to sign here and to have no hope that we could ever improve our team through the deadline by acquiring players who other sh**y teams don’t want anymore, instead of that being us. A rebuild or blowing things up ensures futility for whatever period of time and also hinders us from improving ways in every way outside of acquiring youth.