Permanent Trade Proposal Thread

[illWill]

To Montreal: Cam Ward

 

To Chicago: 4th round pick

 

            or 

 

To Montreal: Jimmy Howard

 

To Detroit: 2nd round pick 

 

 

Niemi has been a feel good story last year and he even had a couple decent showings this season, but my god, he looks brutal out there. I've never seen anything like it at the NHL level. He currently has a sparkling 4.22 GAA and a .870 SV% after 10 games and there isn't any sugar coating those numbers, he's earned them. An upgrade on the back up goalie might provide an extra win or two, which will likely be the difference between making and missing the playoffs. 

[dlbalr]

I get the logic but I'm not sure I'd want to move a valuable pick for a backup goalie (the Howard proposal).  Cam Ward's not much better than Niemi and with Crawford injured, Chicago may actually want to hold onto him for the time being with their other goalie being a rookie. 

 

Would anyone qualify Andrew Hammond as an upgrade?  He's in a timeshare on Minnesota's farm team at the moment with their top goalie prospect so if they decide that they want to give him more playing time (not unlike Florida and the move they made yesterday), that could make Hammond available for a later pick.  With MacKenzie Blackwood doing well with New Jersey, that could maybe convince them to part with Eddie Lack although his last few NHL stints haven't been all that good either.  (Lack has been shut down for the season so forget that idea...)

 

If you want a better backup than that (someone that could play a few games in a row if need be), I think Anders Nilsson could be pried out of Vancouver.  Demko's healthy again and eventually, they'll want to give him a look.

[illWill]

If I had a choice to give up a 2nd round pick in order to make the playoffs, I do that in a heartbeat. It's obviously not as simple as that, but that's the basis for my proposal. Whoever backs up Price for the rest of the season is likely going to play close to 10 games, and I don't feel confident whatsoever in Niemi. I would certainly be on board with acquiring a lesser goalie than Howard at a reduced cost, or even bringing in Lindgren or McNevin into the backup role. 

[dlbalr]

The one thing worth noting with Howard is that as of about a month ago, the asking price started with a first rounder.  To get Howard for a second rounder, I think that would be a deadline-day (or close to it) move.  There wouldn't be many backup games left by then.  Lindgren's getting re-evaluated in a couple of days - it'll be interesting to see if he's given the green light to return or if he'll be out for a while longer as that could dictate what they do.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Personally, I don't think this organization should be trading 2nd-round picks for short term help. We're some distance from contending and should be continuing to pursue a 'draft and develop' strategy. In fact I'd be more supportive of trading older assets at the deadline than of trading away picks - although I doubt either are likely to happen in a big way.

[tomh009]

If you really just want a veteran backup goalie for this season ... why not look at the options in the European leagues, where there are credible options that would not require us to give up any draft picks.  For example, Jussi Rynnas currently has a .937 percentage in Liiga, as a backup goalie for Karpat. Or Jonas Gunnarsson, .935 with HV71 in SHL. I think if we were to be looking for a decent 30+ yo goalie playing in Europe without an NHL contract, there really would be options out there.

[John B]

20 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

Personally, I don't think this organization should be trading 2nd-round picks for short term help. We're some distance from contending and should be continuing to pursue a 'draft and develop' strategy. In fact I'd be more supportive of trading older assets at the deadline than of trading away picks - although I doubt either are likely to happen in a big way.

Couldn't agree more.  Short term acquisitions isn't the way to go this season.

[dlbalr]

18 minutes ago, tomh009 said:

If you really just want a veteran backup goalie for this season ... why not look at the options in the European leagues, where there are credible options that would not require us to give up any draft picks.  For example, Jussi Rynnas currently has a .937 percentage in Liiga, as a backup goalie for Karpat. Or Jonas Gunnarsson, .935 with HV71 in SHL. I think if we were to be looking for a decent 30+ yo goalie playing in Europe without an NHL contract, there really would be options out there.

 

Those players would have to have NHL out-clauses in their contracts which is highly unlikely.  Whoever they sign would then have to pass through NHL entry waivers where every other team would get a crack at him first.  (Does anyone remember the Evgeni Nabokov saga?)  It's a good idea in theory but really tough to pull off at this time of year.

[tomh009]

18 minutes ago, dlbalr said:

Those players would have to have NHL out-clauses in their contracts which is highly unlikely.  Whoever they sign would then have to pass through NHL entry waivers where every other team would get a crack at him first.  (Does anyone remember the Evgeni Nabokov saga?)  It's a good idea in theory but really tough to pull off at this time of year.

 

I think the contract could be sorted out with just money for the European club, especially for someone like Rynnas where the team already has another top goaltender. But I forgot about the re-entry waivers ... yes, likely not worth the trouble, you might end up with nothing at all at the end of the day. Oh well.

[illWill]

I think you guys are undervaluing the importance of this group to make the playoffs this season. They've worked their ass off pretty much every game and deserve to be there, and then you add the experience of playing in those intense games on top of that. Thats what is important. Trading away a late round draft pick to make the playoffs is worth way more than whatever that pick may or may not turn out to be. If the Habs have to rely on some random late pick from 2019 or 20 to develop years from now to put them over the top, they are in more trouble than you think. 

 

Regardless, the back up goalie needs to be addressed this season 

[Trizzak]

Scrounging the waiver wire works fine for me. No need to trade assets for a backup at this time. Lindgren should get a look when he's healthy.  If he fails as well, then maybe a deadline deal if the Habs are still in the playoff mix. 

[PMAC]

What about Calvin Picard? He should be available cheap and he would be an upgrade on Niemi 

 

[alfredoh2009]

1 hour ago, illWill said:

I think you guys are undervaluing the importance of this group to make the playoffs this season. They've worked their ass off pretty much every game and deserve to be there, and then you add the experience of playing in those intense games on top of that. Thats what is important. Trading away a late round draft pick to make the playoffs is worth way more than whatever that pick may or may not turn out to be. If the Habs have to rely on some random late pick from 2019 or 20 to develop years from now to put them over the top, they are in more trouble than you think. 

 

Regardless, the back up goalie needs to be addressed this season 

I am guilty of this, mostly because of a comment sometime ago on this board making the point that the CH should aim to become a strong cup contender instead is being comtent with making the playoffs.

Since, I've been trying to switch my thinking.

 

This year, the team needs a top LD more than. A backup goalie. Niemi is sometimes bad, but when used sporadically he gives the CH a 50-50 chance of winning. 

 

I think a better defence group, more tight group would shelter the goalies and be a better return on assets 

[dlbalr]

2 hours ago, tomh009 said:

I think the contract could be sorted out with just money for the European club, especially for someone like Rynnas where the team already has another top goaltender. But I forgot about the re-entry waivers ... yes, likely not worth the trouble, you might end up with nothing at all at the end of the day. Oh well.

 

 

Not every European league has the buyout option, especially midseason.  Some do but others are locked in no matter what.

 

2 hours ago, illWill said:

I think you guys are undervaluing the importance of this group to make the playoffs this season. They've worked their ass off pretty much every game and deserve to be there, and then you add the experience of playing in those intense games on top of that. Thats what is important. Trading away a late round draft pick to make the playoffs is worth way more than whatever that pick may or may not turn out to be. If the Habs have to rely on some random late pick from 2019 or 20 to develop years from now to put them over the top, they are in more trouble than you think. 

 

Regardless, the back up goalie needs to be addressed this season 

 

I have no issue dealing a mid-to-late round pick (or equivalent) for an upgrade between the pipes.  Moving a higher pick is something that would concern me, however.

 

1 hour ago, PMAC said:

What about Calvin Picard? He should be available cheap and he would be an upgrade on Niemi

 

 

With Raanta out potentially for the rest of the year, Arizona's running with Darcy Kuemper and an unproven rookie in Adin Hill.  They're keeping Pickard around as insurance in case Hill struggles after a while so he may not be available quite yet.  I'm also not sure he'd be an upgrade given how bad he was in Philly this year.

[Commandant]

Cam Ward is not an upgrade on Niemi.  Cam Ward is one of the worst goalies in the NHL.

 

Personally, Id give Lindgren a shot before making a trade.  He should be healthy soon.

 

 

[tomh009]

11 hours ago, Commandant said:

Cam Ward is not an upgrade on Niemi.  Cam Ward is one of the worst goalies in the NHL.

 

Personally, Id give Lindgren a shot before making a trade.  He should be healthy soon.

 

Niemi might settle down, too. He had an atrocious start last year, too, albeit not with the Habs. But he was solid once he settled down. However ... we're at the end of December, he has had limited ice time until now, and has varied between inconsistent and scary.

 

Giving Lindgren another try would make sense. I don't expect him to turn into an elite goalie but if he could be a solid backup that would be enough for us now.

 

We really don't have much depth in goalie prospects any more. We're really dependent on Price getting it together again -- and staying solid for years to come.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

30 minutes ago, tomh009 said:

 

Niemi might settle down, too. He had an atrocious start last year, too, albeit not with the Habs. But he was solid once he settled down. However ... we're at the end of December, he has had limited ice time until now, and has varied between inconsistent and scary.

 

Giving Lindgren another try would make sense. I don't expect him to turn into an elite goalie but if he could be a solid backup that would be enough for us now.

 

We really don't have much depth in goalie prospects any more. We're really dependent on Price getting it together again -- and staying solid for years to come.

 

Yeah, it might be about time to draft a quality G or two. Even if Price becomes elite again, do we really see him playing 60 games per season when he's 35+? Time to develop sone options.

[Commandant]

37 minutes ago, tomh009 said:

 

Niemi might settle down, too. He had an atrocious start last year, too, albeit not with the Habs. But he was solid once he settled down. However ... we're at the end of December, he has had limited ice time until now, and has varied between inconsistent and scary.

 

Giving Lindgren another try would make sense. I don't expect him to turn into an elite goalie but if he could be a solid backup that would be enough for us now.

 

We really don't have much depth in goalie prospects any more. We're really dependent on Price getting it together again -- and staying solid for years to come.

 

We do have goalie prospects. 

 

Primeau is playing for Team USA at the World Juniors.  He's our top goalie prospect.

There is also McNiven. 

 

We could draft one this year, but I wouldn't make it a priority or an early round pick.  

 

 

[Commandant]

39 minutes ago, tomh009 said:

 

Niemi might settle down, too. He had an atrocious start last year, too, albeit not with the Habs. But he was solid once he settled down. However ... we're at the end of December, he has had limited ice time until now, and has varied between inconsistent and scary.

 

Giving Lindgren another try would make sense. I don't expect him to turn into an elite goalie but if he could be a solid backup that would be enough for us now.

 

We really don't have much depth in goalie prospects any more. We're really dependent on Price getting it together again -- and staying solid for years to come.

 

The big need continues to be LHD.  Though Mete playing better again, Romanov dominating at the World Juniors and playing decent in the KHL are big pluses, while Tyszka and Walford are showing signs of having some hope at the WHL level.  I'd still like to get a LHD who has the potential to be a #1 dman though. 

[tomh009]

2 hours ago, Commandant said:

We do have goalie prospects. 

 

Primeau is playing for Team USA at the World Juniors.  He's our top goalie prospect.

There is also McNiven. 

 

We could draft one this year, but I wouldn't make it a priority or an early round pick. 

 

McNiven is not impressing me so far, which leaves Primeau (much too early to tell, I think). I would really like to have some depth in this position. Hopefully we can draft a prospect or two next year.

 

But I do agree with your other post, LHD is the more urgent situation.

[Commandant]

1 hour ago, tomh009 said:

 

McNiven is not impressing me so far, which leaves Primeau (much too early to tell, I think). I would really like to have some depth in this position. Hopefully we can draft a prospect or two next year.

 

But I do agree with your other post, LHD is the more urgent situation.

 

Im fine with taking one... but id just make it a late round pick.  Goalies are freaking voodoo.  There are very few carey price types that you know are going to be great as 17 year olds.  If we take one like primeau in the 6th or 7th round... thats fine.  And then another 6th or 7th rounder in 2020. 

 

Just have a bunch of them and hope one develops cause you get zach fucales as the best goalie in the draft and you get jaro halaks or henrik lundqvist in the late rounds too.  Goalies are the hardest position to scout.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

18 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

Im fine with taking one... but id just make it a late round pick.  Goalies are freaking voodoo.  There are very few carey price types that you know are going to be great as 17 year olds.  If we take one like primeau in the 6th or 7th round... thats fine.  And then another 6th or 7th rounder in 2020. 

 

Just have a bunch of them and hope one develops cause you get zach fucales as the best goalie in the draft and you get jaro halaks or henrik lundqvist in the late rounds too.  Goalies are the hardest position to scout.

 

For sure, go with quantity and hope one or two of them hit. This seems to be the best approach to drafting tout court, but particularly so of goalies, for just the reason you state.

 

The wider point is merely that the organization needs to begin thinking about the transition away from Price. Maybe they are, and maybe they aren't, at this point.

[Commandant]

9 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

For sure, go with quantity and hope one or two of them hit. This seems to be the best approach to drafting tout court, but particularly so of goalies, for just the reason you state.

 

The wider point is merely that the organization needs to begin thinking about the transition away from Price. Maybe they are, and maybe they aren't, at this point.

 

They have been.  They stockpiled fucale, lindgren, hawkey, mcniven and primeau over a short period of time.  Thats five young goalies in a short time frame.

 

Fucale flamed out.

 

Hawkey was traded.

 

Lindgren looks like a backup

 

McNiven hasnt been great but hes still very young for a goalie.  There is still time there.

 

Primeau has been outstanding in college.

 

There are 3 left (1 being lindgren who looks to be an nhler at bare minimum next year).. so there is now room to add a couple... but they have been adding as many goalies recently as any team around the league is.

[tomh009]

1 hour ago, Commandant said:

Im fine with taking one... but id just make it a late round pick.  Goalies are freaking voodoo.  There are very few carey price types that you know are going to be great as 17 year olds.  If we take one like primeau in the 6th or 7th round... thats fine.  And then another 6th or 7th rounder in 2020. 

 

Just have a bunch of them and hope one develops cause you get zach fucales as the best goalie in the draft and you get jaro halaks or henrik lundqvist in the late rounds too.  Goalies are the hardest position to scout.

 

I agree. As a rule, using an first- or second-round pick on a goalie is just too high risk. Third or fourth round is the earliest I would really consider that, and even then it depends on who is available.

[tomh009]

1 hour ago, Commandant said:

They have been.  They stockpiled fucale, lindgren, hawkey, mcniven and primeau over a short period of time.  Thats five young goalies in a short time frame.

 

Fucale flamed out.

Hawkey was traded.

Lindgren looks like a backup

McNiven hasnt been great but hes still very young for a goalie.  There is still time there.

Primeau has been outstanding in college.

 

Hawkey has been looking good at the NCAA level but was traded away for a fifth-round pick. Either our scouts have more confidence in Primeau or else they just don't think we need that many goalie prospects.

 

Fucale seemed (and still seems) to be stuck at the ECHL level so I understand why they let him go.