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6 minutes ago, Habsfan89 said:

I guess you forgot Larkin, Mantha, Bertuzzi , Athanasiou  just to name a few 

 

Only Athanasiou drafted between 2005 to 2012. 

 

Ok... so they got 3 second liners out of 8 drafts.  Still not very good, and definitely not all-world GM work. 

 

The others didn't come from those years. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Commandant said:

 

Only Athanasiou drafted between 2005 to 2012. 

 

Ok... so they got 3 second liners out of 8 drafts.  Still not very good, and definitely not all-world GM work. 

 

The others didn't come from those years. 

 

 

 ok so your saying Bergevin first 3 years drafting he was unlucky because no one he drafted from those years is playing for Montreal.  But Bergevin's last 2 years he's luck has came back to him  and he's been lucky at the draft.

Edited by Habsfan89

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3 minutes ago, Habsfan89 said:

 ok so your saying Bergevin first 3 years drafting he was unlucky because no one he drafted from those years is playing for Montreal.  But Bergevin's last 2 years he's luck has came back to him  and he's been lucky at the draft.

 

First, Bergevin doesn't do the drafting.  He has scouts.  No one person can effectively run the NHL main team and scout all those kids.  

 

But besides that... 3 years and 8 are two different things.... one is a small sample size... the other is big enough to draw conclusions from. 

 

One thing the GM does have complete control on though is the contracts on his team.  Holland has left Detroit an absolute disaster of a cap situation with shit contracts for guys like Glendenning, Nielsen, Helm, DeKeyser, Abdelkader, etc... that are all really bad. 

 

 

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26 years straight of playoffs.... Nuff' said 

 

Everything [one] has an expiration date 

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7 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

First, Bergevin doesn't do the drafting.  He has scouts.  No one person can effectively run the NHL main team and scout all those kids.  

 

But besides that... 3 years and 8 are two different things.... one is a small sample size... the other is big enough to draw conclusions from. 

 

One thing the GM does have complete control on though is the contracts on his team.  Holland has left Detroit an absolute disaster of a cap situation with shit contracts for guys like Glendenning, Nielsen, Helm, DeKeyser, Abdelkader, etc... that are all really bad. 

 

 

Bergevin gives the final say, He  hires the Scouting staff and tells them what direction the scouting and development team are going in.

 

 

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35 minutes ago, Habsfan89 said:

 ok so your saying Bergevin first 3 years drafting he was unlucky because no one he drafted from those years is playing for Montreal.  But Bergevin's last 2 years he's luck has came back to him  and he's been lucky at the draft.

What does Bergevin have to do with the Wings?

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15 minutes ago, DON said:

What does Bergevin have to do with the Wings?

He is saying that Holland was lucky and that drafting and development had nothing to do with his success in Detroit. That Holland isn't a top gm just a lucky one.

 

So I pointed out that Bergevin must of been unlucky his first few years As gm for Montreal because zero of his draft picks are playing for Montreal today, and just one Rose is playing in the NHL. it had nothing to do with drafting and development. But the last 2 years his luck must of come back because the drafting has been a lot better.

Edited by Habsfan89

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4 minutes ago, Habsfan89 said:

So I pointed out that Bergevin must of been unlucky his first few years As gm for Montreal because zero of his draft picks are playing for Montreal today, and just one Rose is playing in the NHL.

 

Is Galchenyuk (2012) not playing in the NHL any more? And Lehkonen (2013) was at least still playing on Saturday.

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21 minutes ago, tomh009 said:

 

Is Galchenyuk (2012) not playing in the NHL any more? And Lehkonen (2013) was at least still playing on Saturday.

My bad so according to commandant theory ,  Bergevin got lucky 3 times and all his other picks were unlucky. Had nothing to do with scouting and development in the organization.

 

Again just using Bergevin as an example since this is a habs forum. Not trying to rip him.

Edited by Habsfan89

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I don't think he's saying that bergevin is amazing  gm or player development expert. The assertion is that the hall of famers lidstrom yzerman Fedorov were not drafted by Holland. If his drafting and development prowess was so great, why wait until 5th and 7th round to draft zett and dat? Wouldn't you use your superior knowledge to bag them in the first round? They were never developed in the wings system. I didnt read Holland bad. Bergevin good.

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30 minutes ago, Habsfan89 said:

My bad so according to commandant theory ,  Bergevin got lucky 3 times and all his other picks were unlucky. Had nothing to do with scouting and development in the organization.

 

Again just using Bergevin as an example since this is a habs forum. Not trying to rip him.

Not worth it. Bergevin has family members on this forum 

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11 minutes ago, BCHabnut said:

I don't think he's saying that bergevin is amazing  gm or player development expert. The assertion is that the hall of famers lidstrom yzerman Fedorov were not drafted by Holland. If his drafting and development prowess was so great, why wait until 5th and 7th round to draft zett and dat? Wouldn't you use your superior knowledge to bag them in the first round? They were never developed in the wings system. I didnt read Holland bad. Bergevin good.

He is saying lucky .......  I am saying scouting and player development not luck.

 

Just using Bergevin as a example to point this out , again since this is a habs forum.

Not saying one is better than the other or ripping on anyone. 

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1 hour ago, Habsfan89 said:

He is saying that Holland was lucky and that drafting and development had nothing to do with his success in Detroit. That Holland isn't a top gm just a lucky one.

 

So I pointed out that Bergevin must of been unlucky his first few years As gm for Montreal because zero of his draft picks are playing for Montreal today, and just one Rose is playing in the NHL. it had nothing to do with drafting and development. But the last 2 years his luck must of come back because the drafting has been a lot better.

Nobody said that all actually. They said he was lucky to get Zetterberg and Daytsuk in hindsight and rightfully so. Even pointing out how we were lucky to get Gallagher and Markov in latter rounds the same way.

 

with that said,

 

Lidstrom was a 3rd rounder

Fedorov a 4th rounder. 

datsyuk 6th round

zetterbeg 7th round

 

anybody can draft stevie Y in the top 5. But those 4 picks really set Detroit up for years. Personally it is a little lucky to land such high end talent in those late rounds but the one thing that can be said is clearly Detroit had high quality scouting coming out of Sweden and Russia  to take flyers on 4 players from sweden and Russia and all of them turned out to be all time greats. Sh*t wasnt Lidstrom and Fedorov drafted the same year?? Id be interested to know if the same scouts were on the payroll in 89 that drafted zetterberg and datsuk 10 years later!

 

 

 

 

 

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33 minutes ago, IN THE HEARTS OF MEN said:

Nobody said that all actually. They said he was lucky to get Zetterberg and Daytsuk in hindsight and rightfully so. Even pointing out how we were lucky to get Gallagher and Markov in latter rounds the same way.

 

with that said,

 

Lidstrom was a 3rd rounder

Fedorov a 4th rounder. 

datsyuk 6th round

zetterbeg 7th round

 

anybody can draft stevie Y in the top 5. But those 4 picks really set Detroit up for years. Personally it is a little lucky to land such high end talent in those late rounds but the one thing that can be said is clearly Detroit had high quality scouting coming out of Sweden and Russia  to take flyers on 4 players from sweden and Russia and all of them turned out to be all time greats. Sh*t wasnt Lidstrom and Fedorov drafted the same year?? Id be interested to know if the same scouts were on the payroll in 89 that drafted zetterberg and datsuk 10 years later!

 

 

 

 

 

Is it lucky or over site by other gm's at the time?

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17 minutes ago, Habsfan89 said:

Is it lucky or over site by other gm's at the time?

If they were that skilled, All of those players would have been taken in the first 2 rounds. They wound not have risked losing them.  I'm too lazy to look at every draft but I would wager they had several busts who they picked earlier than the franchise guys. Wouldn't you pick the franchise guy first?  They didn't know how good they would be or they would have picked them earlier. Not crapping on their franchise.  They were amazing fir a long time.  But they got lucky with those late round superstars. If it was skill and not luck in the draft, they would have been drafted in the first or second.

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1 hour ago, BCHabnut said:

I don't think he's saying that bergevin is amazing  gm or player development expert. The assertion is that the hall of famers lidstrom yzerman Fedorov were not drafted by Holland. If his drafting and development prowess was so great, why wait until 5th and 7th round to draft zett and dat? Wouldn't you use your superior knowledge to bag them in the first round? They were never developed in the wings system. I didnt read Holland bad. Bergevin good.

 

See this is what I said.

 

 

2 hours ago, Habsfan89 said:

He is saying that Holland was lucky and that drafting and development had nothing to do with his success in Detroit. That Holland isn't a top gm just a lucky one.

 

So I pointed out that Bergevin must of been unlucky his first few years As gm for Montreal because zero of his draft picks are playing for Montreal today, and just one Rose is playing in the NHL. it had nothing to do with drafting and development. But the last 2 years his luck must of come back because the drafting has been a lot better.

 

2 hours ago, Habsfan89 said:

My bad so according to commandant theory ,  Bergevin got lucky 3 times and all his other picks were unlucky. Had nothing to do with scouting and development in the organization.

 

Again just using Bergevin as an example since this is a habs forum. Not trying to rip him.

 

Neither of these are what I actually said.  

 

You need to read my posts and what I actually write, not assume other things.

 

There are many things that Ken Holland did right, obviously, the guy won 4 Cups.... but to be clear.... I give him 0 credit for drafting Fedorov, Lidstrom, or Yzerman cause those weren't his picks.  I also think he was lucky with Zetterberg and Datsyuk.  If he knew how good those guys were, he never would have let them sit around til the 7th round or whatever. 

 

Lets just be clear on what we are talking about.  Read what I actually write, and not what you think I wrote.

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like i said, they probably had quality scouts in both Russia and Sweden... took flyers on guys late with up side and were able to luckily score big! If the same scouts were employeed over that 10 year stretch id be more impressed with that said scout!

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3 minutes ago, Habber31 said:

Lol, is that Metallica? Dejaview

Why because we're having a conversation on this topic? 

Is everyone just suppose to agree and be one big happy family 🤔

 

Its a discussion forum for a reason.

Edited by Habsfan89

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Just now, Habsfan89 said:

Why because we're having a conversation on this topic? 

4 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

See this is what I said.

 

 

 

 

Neither of these are what I actually said.  

 

You need to read my posts and what I actually write, not assume other things.

 

There are many things that Ken Holland did right, obviously, the guy won 4 Cups.... but to be clear.... I give him 0 credit for drafting Fedorov, Lidstrom, or Yzerman cause those weren't his picks.  I also think he was lucky with Zetterberg and Datsyuk.  If he knew how good those guys were, he never would have let them sit around til the 7th round or whatever. 

Why would he waste an early pick on those players, if he had an idea they were sleepers.

 

Obviously luck is involved, but at the end of the day, that scouting staff drafted multiple players, deep in the draft. 

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12 minutes ago, IN THE HEARTS OF MEN said:

like i said, they probably had quality scouts in both Russia and Sweden... took flyers on guys late with up side and were able to luckily score big! If the same scouts were employeed over that 10 year stretch id be more impressed with that said scout!

 

Those quality scouts 

 

Drafted Carl Steen (Sweden) in the 5th round, and Tomek Valtonen (polish born, playing in Finland) in the 2nd round... before taking Datsyuk in the 6th round.  If the Euro scouts knew Datsyuk was so good, why did they take those two guys before him?

 

Drafted Jari Tosla (Sweden) in the 4th round and Andrei Maximenko (russia) in the 5th round.... before taking Zetterberg in the 7th.   If they knew Zetterberg was so good, why did they take the other two ahead of him?

 

4 guys... 0 NHL Games... taken ahead of Datsyuk and Zetterberg.

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5 minutes ago, Habber31 said:

Why would he waste an early pick on those players, if he had an idea they were sleepers.

 

Obviously luck is involved, but at the end of the day, that scouting staff drafted multiple players, deep in the draft. 

 

If you know they are that good... you would never take the chance that another team might draft them. 

Sure you could wait til the third round if you think they are a sleeper.  You don't wait til rounds 6 and 7 and give other teams multiple shots at them if you think they are franchise guys.  It shows you got lucky and they are better than you even thought.

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11 minutes ago, Habsfan89 said:

Why because we're having a conversation on this topic? 

Is everyone just suppose to agree and be one big happy family 🤔

 

Its a discussion forum for a reason.

I'm only joking 

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3 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

If you know they are that good... you would never take the chance that another team might draft them. 

Sure you could wait til the third round if you think they are a sleeper.  You don't wait til rounds 6 and 7 and give other teams multiple shots at them if you think they are franchise guys.  It shows you got lucky and they are better than you even thought.

For sure, but Detroit drafted them. 

 

I'm out on this. Too much thought going into another team's g.m

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21 minutes ago, IN THE HEARTS OF MEN said:

like i said, they probably had quality scouts in both Russia and Sweden... took flyers on guys late with up side and were able to luckily score big! If the same scouts were employeed over that 10 year stretch id be more impressed with that said scout!

This is a good point too. 

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