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Permanent Trade Proposal Thread


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20 hours ago, alfredoh2009 said:

With all the recent trades and signings the Habs have made, I am at a point where the way I thought of trades (how ever imperfect) to improve the team are to be thrown in the garbage.

 

Question to the forum: how do you improve a "play-off team" to make it a "cup contending team"?

1. Habs have prospect depth but no elite prospects

2. Habs have NHL roster depth but no elite forwards

3. Habs have no cap room

4. Habs have solid top 3 D but aging

5. Habs have a narrow "Stanley cup window"

 

My old tendency was to go for gradual improvements and to hope for progression from prospects. Now. trades may include core players and should improve the teams chances of winning a cup.

 

I look forward to reading your comments

 


Your use of “elite” skews the entire convo. There are not enough truly “elite” players or prospects in the league for every team to have one.
1) But by using “elite” to mean in the top 10% of the class then I’d say the Habs do have elite forwards in Gallagher, Tatar and Danault (goal production from first two, selke skills for the last and overall dominant line 5v5 has to be considered “elite”)

Suzuki is on verge of being “elite” and also borderline still a prospect. 

2) Again, being generous with “elite” Caulfield appears to have that potential (25-30g/80gp). Romanov looks like an impactful player with “elite” potential. Compared to many teams, Habs are lucky to have two to consider at least.

3) I’d rather have no cap room atm, particularly given the economic impacts of COVID than to have the option to complain about unused cap space again.
 All in poker, because as you said the window is narrow, but still have a few good years.

4) The top 4 is very strong.

aging? Yes, but Petry/Chiarot are just blossoming. Weber shows zero signs of reduced efficacy.

Add the improved Kulak, potential for Edmundson to thrive in a zone d enviro.   Add Romanov, improveD Kulak, hungry Mete, Fleury, Juulsen, etc.

Lots of things to be happy about, and the aginG part is also irrelevant because
5) the Habs are a cup contender now and for the coming 2-4 seasons unless key injuries take over.
I think this team is gonna make some noise right away.

 

 

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I may have agreed with you hockeyreaist a month ago after the Habs made all their moves 

 

I like the new team and feel that they should be a playoff team starting next this season

 

but I doubt they just became a favourite to win the cup; not yet .

 

my question in this (trade proposal) thread is: what trade strategy or philosophy is needed to analyze the team needs and propose trades in order  to make them as strong a team as Tampa Bay was this season ?

 

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15 hours ago, tomh009 said:

OK, Don, sure. So we could do it by having McDavid and Crosby on the roster.

No not a Gretzky, maybe trading for or developing a couple forwards like 92-93 Damphousse-Muller-Bellows would do it. Adding Toffoli could be a good start and hopefully Anderson can be counted on to put some pucks in net also?

 

Seem to have a glut of 3rd pairing d-men at moment (Kulak, Romanov, Ouelette, Fleury, Juusen, Mete, Leskinen), some needing to clear waivers to be demoted, will any be dealt soon-ish?

 

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5 hours ago, hockeyrealist said:

Your use of “elite” skews the entire convo. There are not enough truly “elite” players or prospects in the league for every team to have one ...

 

Challenge is that there is no common understanding amongst hockey fas as to what is elite ... even the dictionary definition (A select group that is superior in terms of ability or qualities to the rest of a group or society) is of no help as it all depends on an arbitrary "line in the sand" that separates the elite from the rest

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"Top 10%" (in the league, in that position) is more precise -- it would mean that most teams have maybe one or two elite players in the line-up. And having more than two would mean you are doing well in this regard.

 

So, do we have ...

  • Forwards that are among the top 40 in the league?
  • Defencemen that are among the top 20 in the league?
  • Goalies that are among the top six in the league?

Some of those will, of course, depend on the criteria used to determine "top X" ...

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1 hour ago, tomh009 said:

"Top 10%" (in the league, in that position) is more precise -- it would mean that most teams have maybe one or two elite players in the line-up. And having more than two would mean you are doing well in this regard.

 

So, do we have ...

  • Forwards that are among the top 40 in the league?
  • Defencemen that are among the top 20 in the league?
  • Goalies that are among the top six in the league?

Some of those will, of course, depend on the criteria used to determine "top X" ...

1) Pacioretty was an elite goal scorer. We don’t have a player like him. Gallagher could become elite as soon as this year. Drouin has elite potential. Suzuki will be elite. 
 

2) Weber is elite. Petry is borderline elite.

 

3) Price is Elite.

 

I don’t know where I stand on this whole conversation but I’d sum up to say that in my opinion:

 

1b) We meet the criteria of having 2 Elite players on the team (although Price and Weber can cease being elite from year to year from here on out)

 

2b) We don’t have a truly elite forward in my opinion but that could change in any given year as well. Gallagher is right about the age Marchand blossomed (I think a year late now) and Caufield will be the real deal.

 

Kind of a contrasting viewpoint between offence and defense in terms of transitioning the elite core, though I think highly of Romanov as well

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  • 2 weeks later...

Lots of rumors floating around that Vegas is looking at Pacioretty as a cap casualty. My first thought is wondering if in the midst of lost games and ticket sales, would they be willing to eat dead money? If they are, could we see something involving Pacioretty going to Columbus for Brandon Dubinsky? They would eat nearly 6 million this year, but it would clear up 7 million a year for three years in cap space. Adding only a little over a million in salary, Columbus would still have enough to get Dubiis under contract. 

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45 minutes ago, Fanpuck33 said:

Lots of rumors floating around that Vegas is looking at Pacioretty as a cap casualty. My first thought is wondering if in the midst of lost games and ticket sales, would they be willing to eat dead money? If they are, could we see something involving Pacioretty going to Columbus for Brandon Dubinsky? They would eat nearly 6 million this year, but it would clear up 7 million a year for three years in cap space. Adding only a little over a million in salary, Columbus would still have enough to get Dubiis under contract. 

 

While CBJ have the cap space for that deal, and it is both an immediate and longer-term solution for Vegas, what we don't know about any of this type of proposal is whether the internal budget has any space.

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1 hour ago, GHT120 said:

 

While CBJ have the cap space for that deal, and it is both an immediate and longer-term solution for Vegas, what we don't know about any of this type of proposal is whether the internal budget has any space.


can you remind me what the “internal budget” is. I do not remember that being mentioned before ... my memory is as slow as the NHLPA and NHL negotiations 

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47 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:

can you remind me what the “internal budget” is. I do not remember that being mentioned before ... my memory is as slow as the NHLPA and NHL negotiations 

 

It's not an NHL/NHLPA thing but rather a suggestion that Columbus has a budget below the cap ceiling. 

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2 minutes ago, dlbalr said:

 

It's not an NHL/NHLPA thing but rather a suggestion that Columbus has a budget below the cap ceiling. 

 

Exactly ... it has been suggested in the "expert" media that, due to both reduced hockey revenues and possible non-hockey losses for individual owners, there may be more teams/owners than usual that will impose an internal "cap" less than the CBA cap ceiling ... seems quite logical me, given the economic impact of Covid-19 both inside and outside the NHL

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4 hours ago, GHT120 said:

 

While CBJ have the cap space for that deal, and it is both an immediate and longer-term solution for Vegas, what we don't know about any of this type of proposal is whether the internal budget has any space.

 

Yeah, that's why my first question is whether Vegas is willing/able to eat dead salary for putting Dubinsky on LTIR. Are they only worried about cap space or are they also budgeting and need a cheaper player and picks back.

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10 hours ago, Fanpuck33 said:

Yeah, that's why my first question is whether Vegas is willing/able to eat dead salary for putting Dubinsky on LTIR. Are they only worried about cap space or are they also budgeting and need a cheaper player and picks back.

 

Is Dubinsky's deal insured?  If so, that would offset a big chunk of the actual money to be paid to him.

 

Considering Vegas has basically gone all in with adding Pietrangelo, I don't think they're worried about salary expenditures.  This is just trying to free up some wiggle room given that they basically have to carry a minimum-sized roster to stay cap compliant.  If they can move Pacioretty (or Marchessault who is also out there) without taking a big-ticket deal back and then try to sign Hoffman or Haula for less, then they're still in good shape.  Dubinsky being LTIR-eligible would also work if they're just willing to give Pacioretty away.

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7 hours ago, dlbalr said:

 

Is Dubinsky's deal insured?  If so, that would offset a big chunk of the actual money to be paid to him.

 

Considering Vegas has basically gone all in with adding Pietrangelo, I don't think they're worried about salary expenditures.  This is just trying to free up some wiggle room given that they basically have to carry a minimum-sized roster to stay cap compliant.  If they can move Pacioretty (or Marchessault who is also out there) without taking a big-ticket deal back and then try to sign Hoffman or Haula for less, then they're still in good shape.  Dubinsky being LTIR-eligible would also work if they're just willing to give Pacioretty away.

 

I hadn't thought about insurance. Forgot all about it after the whole Horton/Clarkson stuff. I found a post by a user on CapFriendly that claimed Frank Seravalli tweeted that it is 100% insured, but I can't find that tweet or anything else concrete. But if it is insured, why would there be rumors of trying to trade him? Nobody is dealing with not meeting the floor these days, are they? Why else would anyone else want him?

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17 hours ago, Fanpuck33 said:

I hadn't thought about insurance. Forgot all about it after the whole Horton/Clarkson stuff. I found a post by a user on CapFriendly that claimed Frank Seravalli tweeted that it is 100% insured, but I can't find that tweet or anything else concrete. But if it is insured, why would there be rumors of trying to trade him? Nobody is dealing with not meeting the floor these days, are they? Why else would anyone else want him?

 

If Columbus is a team that winds up a few million below the cap ceiling, LTIR doesn't do much for them.  A team that's tight to the ceiling and could benefit from having an LTIR cushion (or is already heading there and wants to add to it like Toronto did when they re-acquired Clarkson last year) could have interest.  Ottawa (who seems to target injured players with insured contracts) could have some interest.  He's far from an asset but it wouldn't shock me if he was dealt as some teams will want or need LTIR to get cap compliant.

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6 hours ago, dlbalr said:

 

If Columbus is a team that winds up a few million below the cap ceiling, LTIR doesn't do much for them.  A team that's tight to the ceiling and could benefit from having an LTIR cushion (or is already heading there and wants to add to it like Toronto did when they re-acquired Clarkson last year) could have interest.  Ottawa (who seems to target injured players with insured contracts) could have some interest.  He's far from an asset but it wouldn't shock me if he was dealt as some teams will want or need LTIR to get cap compliant.

 

That's the part I don't understand. I understand how Columbus could benefit from putting him on LTIR to open up more cap room. But how does it benefit a team that is already close? I can't understand how adding a player who doesn't count against the cap helps anyone, unless they are unloading a contract as part of the deal.

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35 minutes ago, Fanpuck33 said:

 

That's the part I don't understand. I understand how Columbus could benefit from putting him on LTIR to open up more cap room. But how does it benefit a team that is already close? I can't understand how adding a player who doesn't count against the cap helps anyone, unless they are unloading a contract as part of the deal.

Brian will probably have a much better input, but I was Under the impression that those players do count against the cap, but since they are on LTIR, if the team busts the cap, this amount can be spent on another player.   Like,  I thought LTIR "cap relief" was only kinda kicking in when the team actually went over the cap. Otherwise, it's not such a big deal.  Maybe I'm 100% wrong also.   BRIAN !!!!  WE NEED YOU !!!

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39 minutes ago, JoeLassister said:

Brian will probably have a much better input, but I was Under the impression that those players do count against the cap, but since they are on LTIR, if the team busts the cap, this amount can be spent on another player.   Like,  I thought LTIR "cap relief" was only kinda kicking in when the team actually went over the cap. Otherwise, it's not such a big deal.  Maybe I'm 100% wrong also.   BRIAN !!!!  WE NEED YOU !!!

I await a good explanation as well ... to my understanding all NHL contracts count against the cap ... but if a team has a player(s) on LTIR it can exceed to cap by the amount of the LTIR player cap hits for the period they are on LTIR ... that last bit is important because if a player becomes physically/medically able to play (and that is safely step on the ice, not play up to their highest level) then the team must somehow make room on their cap or find a way to move the player off the cap ... in those cases the cap impacts are measured by cap-hit/day or cap-hit/game (think it is by day).

 

The benefit in taking on LTIR contracts is usually what the new team is "paid" to take it.

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20 minutes ago, GHT120 said:

I await a good explanation as well ... to my understanding all NHL contracts count against the cap ... but if a team has a player(s) on LTIR it can exceed to cap by the amount of the LTIR player cap hits for the period they are on LTIR ... that last bit is important because if a player becomes physically/medically able to play (and that is safely step on the ice, not play up to their highest level) then the team must somehow make room on their cap or find a way to move the player off the cap ... in those cases the cap impacts are measured by cap-hit/day or cap-hit/game (think it is by day).

 

The benefit in taking on LTIR contracts is usually what the new team is "paid" to take it.

yes,  the amount of cap space on LTIR is calculated on a daily basis.

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1 hour ago, JoeLassister said:

Brian will probably have a much better input, but I was Under the impression that those players do count against the cap, but since they are on LTIR, if the team busts the cap, this amount can be spent on another player.   Like,  I thought LTIR "cap relief" was only kinda kicking in when the team actually went over the cap. Otherwise, it's not such a big deal.  Maybe I'm 100% wrong also.   BRIAN !!!!  WE NEED YOU !!!

 

Right, it's kind of semantics. They count against the cap, but they are allowed to go over by the amount of their salary while they are out  (the entire thing if their career is over like Dubinsky). Two different ways of achieving the same result - an injured player's salary not hurting the team's cap situation.

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Everybody's fairly close on the LTIR interpretation.  The cap space created by placing a player on LTIR is the players' salary minus any existing cap room at the time of the placement.  So if a team that's a million under the cap places a player making $5 million on LTIR, they can go over the cap by $4 million while that player is on there.  The players' salary does not come off the books.

 

Let's go a step further now.  The hypothetical team with a million in cap space recalls a player making $900,000 before putting the player on LTIR to get as close to the cap as possible.  The remaining cap space is now $100,000 so the placement of the $5M player on LTIR now gives them $4.9 million in cap room.  They then send the $900K player down and have the ability to spend $5.8 million to replace a $5 million player on LTIR.  This type of move is very common right at the beginning of the regular season and it's that type of move where some teams may target Dubinsky.  Get tight to the cap, LTIR him, then drop a player or two and create an inflated pool to utilize.  It's not quite as simple as I'm trying to make it sound (it can be tricky to pull off) but in a nutshell, that's the idea and there are a few teams that could do it. 

 

There is an important opportunity cost to note though - no cap space is banked in that situation so any bonuses achieved are automatically charged on next year's cap so for a team with key players on entry-level deals, you're asking for trouble.  Even if some teams could pull it off, lots wouldn't want to so the opportunity to move Dubinsky in that situation is still quite limited.

 

This discussion started with Vegas so let's use them in a bit of detail.  They're about a million over the cap so if they move Pacioretty ($7M) for a futures-based return, they're now $6 million under.  They flip a conditional pick that amounts to nothing to Columbus for Dubinsky ($5.85M).  They're under the cap still and can place him on LTIR, giving them an LTIR pool of about $5.7 million to add to their roster.  They get out of the cap trouble they're in and still have the ability to add a key free agent to the roster, assuming someone like Hoffman (or Haula, perhaps the likelier target for them) is still unsigned at the start of the season. 

 

A team heading for LTIR anyway could potentially want him to add to that pool but then you're probably looking into a more restrictive offseason LTIR and I don't have a clue how that one is done but the rules are different.  (I suspect it involves the offseason cap rules which have two-way cap holds based on percentage of NHL days the previous year and other minutia that no one wants to read about here...)

 

The likeliest scenario for Dubinsky or any other LTIR-bound player being moved is if his deal is insured, the team can leave the cap hit on the books with a minimal cash payment and if they blow things up midseason, it's easier to stay above the floor.  But after writing all of that, it's still quite unlikely he moves; there's a reason those players often stay put.

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I guess the thing that makes the least sense is that since the cap is calculated in a daily basis, it makes no sense that the exact number at the time a player goes on LTIR can affect the whole season. Just like I think it is stupid that teams can bank cap space and be able to get a 5 million dollar player at the deadline by staying under the cap by 1 million up to that point.

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Interesting that VGK are shopping Patches. He’s basically their best scorer...seems a slightly odd choice. In any case, I doubt they get many takers; the current climate is so weird and so revenue-free that teams are liable to be hyper risk-averse.

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