Jump to content

Gill dealt to Predators


Recommended Posts

so what, Diagle was the #1 overall pick and Datysuk was a 6th round pick. Again, who hit the home run or grand slam depends on how Geofferion pans out. From the sounds of it, he could end up being a 3rd liner or a 4th liner, while the TB 4th liner may never play in the NHL, or may well be a better player then Geofferio

PG hit a homerun regardless of what other deals went down. To be able to trade a 37 year old defense man with limited minutes and abilities, who is about to become a UFA for a second round pick and a former second round pick who can play in the near future, is highway robbery.

Kubina is a better player, but he has a lower trade value right now. He is in the doghouse in TB, Yzerman said he wouldn't play another game for TB. Gill on the other hand is a respected leader, one of the reasons the Habs have a number overall PK (scares the shit out of me 5 on 5 though), but has been solid in the playoffs and has been deep in the playoffs 3 out of the last 4 years

So if Kubina has a lower trade value because Yzerman publicly stated he'll never play for them again, who's fault is that? Sounds like a poor choice by the general manager if you ask me, depreciating his asset like that. And yes, Kubina is a better player like you stated.

Bottom line is that the habs need top end talent. We have been the masters of developing or accumulating 3rd/4th liners. Unless Geoffrion does prove to be a potential 2nd liner or at least a very solid 3rd liner, i wouldn't call the deal a home run. Hall Gill at the start of the year, with 82 games to play is worth no more then a 4th or 5th rounder. Hall Gill at the trade deadline for a team looking to stock up for the playoffs is worth considerably more.

Hal Gill at the trade deadline is worth considerably more than a second, and two prospects?? I'm pretty sure you are in the minority on that one.

Kubina playing well is worth more then Hall Gill in the regular season, Kubina not being played by a TB team starving for defenceman is an indictment on his value. When you consider these factors, IMO, Yzerman made out much better then Gauthier - certainly much better then Gauthier made out with Cammy in similar circumstances.

Again, if Kubina is better than Gill like you stated, how did Yzerman make out better than Gauthier? And comparing the Cammy trade to the Kubina one is apples and oranges. I think you are the first person to say something negative about trading Skills Gill. I guess there is always one in every crowd.....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Boomer" was demoted after being traded...He is now in the Hammer with Slaney..

What a waste of talent...You are basically handcuffing LL to mature as a player he is meant to be...Give the kid some players that have offensive skill...If he plays 4th line minutes, then send him to the Hammer..

Don't worry, he won't be there very long.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yzerman never called Kubina a distraction, or a locker room problem. The only reason he was out of the lineup was because Yzerman is giving up on making the playoffs and sat him so he could be traded and would not get injured. That's it. There was never any mention of issues.

Also while its true the 4th rounder might be better than Geoffrion down the road, or might not. That's not the way to properly assess who got more value.

The question is if Geoffrion was traded tomorrow straight up for a pick, would it be a 4th rounder or higher. I think right now Geoffrion is worth more than a 4th.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Im not against trading Gill - actually, I sated way back in November that we need to move one of , Gill, Moen, Campoli, one of Weber/Campoli and, Darche. I also think we should move Kaberle, if he can be moved.

I would have preferred if PG hadn't jumped the gun on moving Cammy and packaged Gill and Cammy together to a team that has come short in the playoffs, or needs help scoring (i.e. SJ/Washington), to get a 1st and a high-end prospect, rather then a potential 3rd/4th liner. Since then, I've hoping for a Moen/Gill package to try an pick up another 1st and maybe a 3rd.

I don't think PG did badly, I just don't think it's a grand slam, or even a home run like some have said. At the deadine, most UFA's are getting that return - a 2nd plus. Hell Gill has been a lot more effective in the playoffs then Rivet was and even Rivet brought a 1st and Gorges.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yzerman never called Kubina a distraction, or a locker room problem. The only reason he was out of the lineup was because Yzerman is giving up on making the playoffs and sat him so he could be traded and would not get injured. That's it. There was never any mention of issues.

Also while its true the 4th rounder might be better than Geoffrion down the road, or might not. That's not the way to properly assess who got more value.

The question is if Geoffrion was traded tomorrow straight up for a pick, would it be a 4th rounder or higher. I think right now Geoffrion is worth more than a 4th.

I don't dispute that. What gets me, is why are we always trading for 3rd/4th liners or other people's garbage (i.e. Kaberle/Gomez/Bourque)? The canes, NYR and the Flames were trying for the longest time to move these guys - we are the only one's who bit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would have preferred if PG hadn't jumped the gun on moving Cammy and packaged Gill and Cammy together to a team that has come short in the playoffs, or needs help scoring (i.e. SJ/Washington), to get a 1st and a high-end prospect, rather then a potential 3rd/4th liner. Since then, I've hoping for a Moen/Gill package to try an pick up another 1st and maybe a 3rd.

I don't dispute that. What gets me, is why are we always trading for 3rd/4th liners or other people's garbage (i.e. Kaberle/Gomez/Bourque)? The canes, NYR and the Flames were trying for the longest time to move these guys - we are the only one's who bit.

Yes, it would be nice to be a GM in professional sports and make whatever deal you want, regardless of whether or not someone actually wants to make your proposed trade with you. Just waive a magical wand and find a willing trading partner. And since Cammy fell out of favor with his team, wasn't producing and has a big cap hit, I could say that he could have been considered our "garbage". It's easy to assume we are getting every one else's crap but yet never think about what's going the other way.

Imagine if one year ago today if I were to tell you that we would trade Hall Gill and Jaro Spacek and get back Kaberle, Geoffrion, Slaney and a second round pick, you would call me crazy. Kaberle was still very coveted and Geoffrion was on fire. Only one year ago.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, it would be nice to be a GM in professional sports and make whatever deal you want, regardless of whether or not someone actually wants to make your proposed trade with you. Just waive a magical wand and find a willing trading partner. And since Cammy fell out of favor with his team, wasn't producing and has a big cap hit, I could say that he could have been considered our "garbage". It's easy to assume we are getting every one else's crap but yet never think about what's going the other way.

Imagine if one year ago today if I were to tell you that we would trade Hall Gill and Jaro Spacek and get back Kaberle, Geoffrion, Slaney and a second round pick, you would call me crazy. Kaberle was still very coveted and Geoffrion was on fire. Only one year ago.

Just for the record, I wouldn't even have wanted the Kaberle of three or four years ago. Never liked him. He is one of those players that puts up good numbers on bad teams. He is soft, one dimensional and IMO not someone I'd even be willing to sign for even $3M. As for Geofferion, there have been plenty of young players come out with big numbers and then fizzle off. From the opinions expressed here by most who like Geoffrion - I don't know enough about him to like or dislike him - he sounds like a 3rd or 4th liners. When are we going to go after the big fish instead of the minnows????

As far as Cammy goes, I'd have been willing to trade him after our final 4 finish. Back then is also when I would have fired Martin - said as much at that time.

Go back and read my posts from the last three years. I hated the "stealth" rebuild that some have termed Gainey's smurfication of the team when he went out and got Cammy, Gomez and Gionta - a move most here loved at the time. The same people that were raving about getting Gomez have finally realized the useless garbage he is and are now saying as much. I had wanted Pleks resigned after the infamous little girl line and his disaster year. I also said we should have resigned him after he had his big start a couple of years ago, while a lot of regulars were saying Pleks is to soft and that we should wait until the end of the year, rather then sign him during the year, when we could have gotten him cheaper.

I really think the habs missed an opportunity after that final four finish and again early last year, when a guy like Malkin was injured and struggling and Crosby was at a record pace before his concussion to try and snag Stall or Malkin. The pens were starving for wingers and at that time, if we offered up Cammy +, we could have got stall and who knows, Cammy + Subban and another piece may have netted Malkin - and I love Subban. But for three players, I wouldn't hesitate to package him out - Malkin, Stamkos and Toews.

Its been 20 bloody years and we have not filled our biggest need a damn true number one dominating centre with size and to me having $11M to $12M locked up in garbage like Gomez and Malkin isn't going to allow us to fill that need.

Not saying I don't like any of the moves that Gainey or PG did - but the last half of gainey's tenure was a disaster, IMO the last good move he made was the Rivet trade. For me the best move PG made was the won a lot of people here hate - resigning markov. If the doctor's gave the okay, and given the success of modern knee surgeries, I think resigning Markov was a no brainer - I only wish he had signed Gorges long-term at the same time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would have preferred if PG hadn't jumped the gun on moving Cammy and packaged Gill and Cammy together to a team that has come short in the playoffs, or needs help scoring (i.e. SJ/Washington), to get a 1st and a high-end prospect, rather then a potential 3rd/4th liner. Since then, I've hoping for a Moen/Gill package to try an pick up another 1st and maybe a 3rd.

While Moen and Gill might be worth 2nd round picks to individual teams the chances of them combined being worth a 1st round and 3rd round pick to a team is very minimal. That’s why most deadline deals are built around 1 player with picks/prospects used to balance it out if necessary.

Nashville valued Gill fairly highly but they might not have valued Moen highly and simply viewed him as a nice piece but not worth trading for. Where as a team like Chicago might be desperate for a Moen and willing to give up a 2nd and a prospect. So finding a team to value 2 free agents neither of which is a top 6 foward or a top pairing defenseman as a 1st round pick is going to be tough.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Remember that little note on not trashing other posters or calling them names? Enough is enough, I suggest you take some time to review the very simple rules (particularly #2) before posting again.

To others who want to complain publicly about him or another poster, keep in mind the same rules apply both ways.

thanks for being so fair...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

While Moen and Gill might be worth 2nd round picks to individual teams the chances of them combined being worth a 1st round and 3rd round pick to a team is very minimal. That’s why most deadline deals are built around 1 player with picks/prospects used to balance it out if necessary.

Nashville valued Gill fairly highly but they might not have valued Moen highly and simply viewed him as a nice piece but not worth trading for. Where as a team like Chicago might be desperate for a Moen and willing to give up a 2nd and a prospect. So finding a team to value 2 free agents neither of which is a top 6 foward or a top pairing defenseman as a 1st round pick is going to be tough.

If we get another 2nd round draft pick for Moen, Gauthier might be able to trade his two 2nd round draft pick for a 1st round draft pick -- that would quite good for Moen and Gill.

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just for the record, I wouldn't even have wanted the Kaberle of three or four years ago. Never liked him. He is one of those players that puts up good numbers on bad teams. He is soft, one dimensional and IMO not someone I'd even be willing to sign for even $3M. As for Geofferion, there have been plenty of young players come out with big numbers and then fizzle off. From the opinions expressed here by most who like Geoffrion - I don't know enough about him to like or dislike him - he sounds like a 3rd or 4th liners. When are we going to go after the big fish instead of the minnows????

As far as Cammy goes, I'd have been willing to trade him after our final 4 finish. Back then is also when I would have fired Martin - said as much at that time.

Go back and read my posts from the last three years. I hated the "stealth" rebuild that some have termed Gainey's smurfication of the team when he went out and got Cammy, Gomez and Gionta - a move most here loved at the time. The same people that were raving about getting Gomez have finally realized the useless garbage he is and are now saying as much. I had wanted Pleks resigned after the infamous little girl line and his disaster year. I also said we should have resigned him after he had his big start a couple of years ago, while a lot of regulars were saying Pleks is to soft and that we should wait until the end of the year, rather then sign him during the year, when we could have gotten him cheaper.

I really think the habs missed an opportunity after that final four finish and again early last year, when a guy like Malkin was injured and struggling and Crosby was at a record pace before his concussion to try and snag Stall or Malkin. The pens were starving for wingers and at that time, if we offered up Cammy +, we could have got stall and who knows, Cammy + Subban and another piece may have netted Malkin - and I love Subban. But for three players, I wouldn't hesitate to package him out - Malkin, Stamkos and Toews.

Its been 20 bloody years and we have not filled our biggest need a damn true number one dominating centre with size and to me having $11M to $12M locked up in garbage like Gomez and Malkin isn't going to allow us to fill that need.

Not saying I don't like any of the moves that Gainey or PG did - but the last half of gainey's tenure was a disaster, IMO the last good move he made was the Rivet trade. For me the best move PG made was the won a lot of people here hate - resigning markov. If the doctor's gave the okay, and given the success of modern knee surgeries, I think resigning Markov was a no brainer - I only wish he had signed Gorges long-term at the same time.

A bit too much IMO. Kaberle is certainly not a great player right now, but just a few years ago he was doing a pretty darn job on the Leafs PP. I remember that he was particularly good against the Habs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Two things, first you aren't landing the big fish for Gill or Moen, so there goers that theory.

2nd you keep going back to this mythical time when Pittsburgh was willing to trade Malkin or Staal because Crosby wasn't suffering concussions yet. Guess what, 29 teams would ha ve made offers if they really were available, considering Pittsburgh didn't trade them, they were never available

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Habs29 makes many good points, but he arguably falls prey to a standard trap, which is to compare reality to an ideal standard and then condemn the former, without necessarily knowing how realistic the latter is.

For instance, it's fine to say that the Gainey rebuild of 2009 was a terrible idea from the start because what we should have done was go out and get Malkin or Staal. Now obviously, if you're asking me whether I'd prefer to rebuild with Malkin down the middle versus the Scott Gomez of 2008-9 (who was still an elite playmaker, mind), I say Malkin. But of course Malkin was not on the table in the summer of 2009. Gainey's options were, in effect, re-signing Higgins, Komisarek, Kovalev, etc (that is, garbage).; or going with a team of AHLers , hoarding cap space and hoping; or running the table on the best UFAs available. He took the latter route and built a good, competitive team that unfortunately melted down this season due to an unforseeable injury to Markov and an unpredictable player revolt. The other thing he did was the disastrous Gomez trade, but let's at least remember that he did NOT trade for the Gomez of 2010-11. He traded for the guy who had been among the NHL's top-20 in assists for something like 7 years running.

On other matters, like re-signing Streit and Pleks on the cheap, habs29 was prescient, but in the case of Pleks, do we have evidence that he was willing to lock up long-term after his 40-point season? Or is this another case of condemning reality based on some hypothetical ideal scenario, without knowing whether the hypothetical scenario was a realistic possibility?

Jacques Martin: condemned over and over for not being Scotty Bowman. Never mind that his team consistently maxed out and, even this disastrous season, was a league leader in several categories indicative of good coaching, such as shots against, even strength goal differential, and PK. Martin could not compete with the idealized parallel universe of the Perfect Coach.

Same thing with Kaberle, really. The tacit comparison is always with some stud like Weber. This is a meaningless comparison. Of course Kaberle is a somewhat one-dimensional player. As Commandant keeps pointing out, that's what he's paid like - a 50-point defenceman who doesn't bring too much besides points. I don't know why those points are somehow considered useless. And the idea that Burke was 'trying to get rid of him' just distorts history. Burke was trying to rebuild his team by moving older assets for which he knew he could acquire high picks/young talent. Which is exactly what he got for Kaberle.

What's strange about all of this is that, although Habs29 is pretty consistent in condemning our reality against some idealized parallel universe in which franchise players fall into our laps and players lock-up long-term for massively less than their actual market value, he just loves Andrei Kostitsyn! In this one case, he is willing to accept the reality and ignores the ideal (which would be a player who actually brings his 'A' game for more than 30 games per season).

Anyway, I'm not trying to slag Habs29. We all have our strengths and weaknesses. My own weakness is tending to err on the side of the status quo, as when I argued for re-signing Komisarek. I just see a certain pattern of thought here that's worth pointing out, and the extent to which you agree with Habs29 may often come down to where you stand on this tendency to measure reality against ideal types.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Excellent post from The Cucumber. In my opinion, the top contributor speaking honestly about hab29, who in his own way, is a must read as well. The only problem with Kaberle, is the one we all know. He's a luxury we might not really be able to afford. It's his cap hit going forward. It's all about Gomez. Lose that contract, everything else falls into place.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Habs29 makes many good points, but he arguably falls prey to a standard trap, which is to compare reality to an ideal standard and then condemn the former, without necessarily knowing how realistic the latter is. For instance, it's fine to say that the Gainey rebuild of 2009 was a terrible idea from the start because what we should have done was go out and get Malkin or Staal. Now obviously, if you're asking me whether I'd prefer to rebuild with Malkin down the middle versus the Scott Gomez of 2008-9 (who was still an elite playmaker, mind), I say Malkin. But of course Malkin was not on the table in the summer of 2009. Gainey's options were, in effect, re-signing Higgins, Komisarek, Kovalev, etc (that is, garbage).; or going with a team of AHLers , hoarding cap space and hoping; or running the table on the best UFAs available. He took the latter route and built a good, competitive team that unfortunately melted down this season due to an unforseeable injury to Markov and an unpredictable player revolt. The other thing he did was the disastrous Gomez trade, but let's at least remember that he did NOT trade for the Gomez of 2010-11. He traded for the guy who had been among the NHL's top-20 in assists for something like 7 years running. On other matters, like re-signing Streit and Pleks on the cheap, habs29 was prescient, but in the case of Pleks, do we have evidence that he was willing to lock up long-term after his 40-point season? Or is this another case of condemning reality based on some hypothetical ideal scenario, without knowing whether the hypothetical scenario was a realistic possibility? Jacques Martin: condemned over and over for not being Scotty Bowman. Never mind that his team consistently maxed out and, even this disastrous season, was a league leader in several categories indicative of good coaching, such as shots against, even strength goal differential, and PK. Martin could not compete with the idealized parallel universe of the Perfect Coach. Same thing with Kaberle, really. The tacit comparison is always with some stud like Weber. This is a meaningless comparison. Of course Kaberle is a somewhat one-dimensional player. As Commandant keeps pointing out, that's what he's paid like - a 50-point defenceman who doesn't bring too much besides points. I don't know why those points are somehow considered useless. And the idea that Burke was 'trying to get rid of him' just distorts history. Burke was trying to rebuild his team by moving older assets for which he knew he could acquire high picks/young talent. Which is exactly what he got for Kaberle. What's strange about all of this is that, although Habs29 is pretty consistent in condemning our reality against some idealized parallel universe in which franchise players fall into our laps and players lock-up long-term for massively less than their actual market value, he just loves Andrei Kostitsyn! In this one case, he is willing to accept the reality and ignores the ideal (which would be a player who actually brings his 'A' game for more than 30 games per season). Anyway, I'm not trying to slag Habs29. We all have our strengths and weaknesses. My own weakness is tending to err on the side of the status quo, as when I argued for re-signing Komisarek. I just see a certain pattern of thought here that's worth pointing out, and the extent to which you agree with Habs29 may often come down to where you stand on this tendency to measure reality against ideal types.

First, i never said Gainey should have tried to get Malkin in 2009 - there would have been zero chance of that. In 2009, I would have kept Koivu - still don't get why Gainey treated the one guy on the team who gave it his all, yet wanted to resign Kovalev, who was moody and not much of a leader. You seem to forget that Gainey's master plan included resigning the "garbage" Kovelev, but only lucked out because the sens were stupid enough to offer Kovelev two years, versus Gainey's 1 year. If Kovelev accepted Gainey's offer, we would have had him instead of Gionta - another bullet Gainey dodged from his own ineptitude.

As far as calling Gomez an elite playmaker - give me a friggin break. Koivu in his last year with the habs had 16 goals, 34 assists for 50 points. In his last year with the Rangers (same year), Gomez had 16 goals 42 asists for 58 points. So basically Gainey dumped his captain Koivu for 8 extra assists and added what $3M to $3.5M to his cap hit for those extra eight "elite playmaker" assists.

I remember at that time you were overjoyed of picking up Gomez. I was pissed that we dumped Koivu, gave up McDonoagh (who many on this forum were comparing to Josef Balej or whatever his name was from the Kovelev trade).

Since the big gainey "Stealth rebuild", Koivu has put up 52, 45 and has 29 points so far this year. The "Elite" gomez put up 58, 38 and 9 points. So even in his first year with the habs (which you said he was good), Gomez put up an amazing 6 more points then Koivu, at 3 times the cap hit. BRILLIANT MOVE!!!

Before getting gomer pyle, Gainey was reportedly willing to move either of two reported packaged - Pleks, Higgins, SUbban for Vinny Lecavalier, or Pleks, Price, Subban for Vinny. Either deals would have been brutal. I don't know if we should be happy that Gainey did get Gomez instead of 11 years of Vinny!!!

As far as Malkin/Stall, I think if a team pushed hard - was bold, when Crosby had his hot start in 2010, and Stall/malkin were injured/struggling, by offering up a winger and Subban (whose value was through the roof at the time, that was a move that the Pens would plausibly would have been willing to make). Given that they saw first hand how Cammy burnt them the previous year in the playoffs and had a glimpse of Subban, they may have bit and we could have sweetend the pot more. Hell, for Malkin, as much as I love Pleks, I would have even been willing to through him in. The point that why didn't any other GM approach the pens - well how many GM's or teams, media, or fans had a clue that the FLyers would have traded their captain Richards and Carter - right after signing Carter to a 10 year deal???? You have to be bold and push when there is an oppertunity. I think that Crosby carrying the pens at the start of 2010 was an oppertunity that was missed, not just by the habs but by every other team.

As far as Martin goes, and the great job he did developing sens players - go read yesterday's Globe and Mail on the great contribution Martin made to Spezza's development. From the article it pretty much sounded like Martin almost ruined him, and Spezza was lucky because of the lockout. When did I compare Martin to Bowman??? What i said was that while Martin has 500 or how many other wins, he is not scotty bowman with a big winning percentage. Martin has lost almost as many, or more games as he has won. Just because he has been recycled by idiotic GM's doesn't make him a great coach. He almost messed up MaxPac. If you recall, i was posting on a regular basis that maxpac should be sent down to Hamilton. Getting away from martin was godsend for Maxpac. When he was in Hamilton he even said, he'd rather stay in hamilton rather then be a 3rd/4th liner in the NHL. Others on this site were constantly going on how Maxpac has no finish (much like they are about Eller now).

As far as Kaberle. I don't care if the guy scores 50 points, if he can't play friggin Defense!!!! This is not the 90's NHL, where a team like the wings can have a guy on their payroll like Larry Murphy to help their PP. We are in a cap system. We can't afford to have one Dman who is useless outside of the PP and another DMan Gill who is useless outside of the PK or tight playoff hockey. How many teams dress 7 dman with the regularity that we do???? Hell the way that PG has built the defence, we would need to dress 9 to make up for the deficiencies of our den. How many coaches play a 21 year old defence as a forward and expect a guy like Weber to actually develop into a bona fide NHL dman???? How many GM's have a guy like Weber and then sign an almost, older type clone (size, skating, style), in Diaz. Then on top of that sign another dman like Campoli who is lost on Defence????? I can see someone wanting a clone of Markov or Subban or gorges, but signing Campoli, Diaz with Weber already in the mix??? Then not content with having Campoli, Weber, Gill and Diaz, all guys who really don't play great defense (5 on 5) and aren't very physical (Gill is big, but was a marshmellow, who was a good shot blocker), PG trades for Kaberle, who also can't play defense!!!

You want my ideal situation in 2009 - which is not hindsight, but what i wanted in 2009 and posted as much - we keep Koivu, Pleks, Higgins and used Kovy's and Komi's cap space on UFA's to go after Gaborik - who the rangers were only able to sign because of Gainey's stupidity. The number 10 from the wild would have been the closest to getting the same type skill level of our wonderful retired #10. IF that didnt work, next target would have been Cammy. As much as i like Gionta and the heart he plays for, he is not someone I would have gone after or wanted. In hindsight, at least he has brought good leadership and plays hard, but he is not someone I would have targeted. The other guy i would have chased was Bertuzzi. polar opposite of going the smurf direction.

Lastly, there are reasons i like Ak46 is he represents something we lacked for a LONG time, until Maxpac broke out last year and since we picked up Cole (one of only two moves that I think PG should be commmended for). A SKILLED forward with SIZE, SCORING ability who plays PHYSICAL!! I would have no issue, with the habs moving him, IF they replaced him with someone else who had size, skill and had the potential to be a 30-35 goal scorer. AK46 got a raw deal in Montreal from Martin since the get go. He got a raw deal from the media over allegedly "blackening the prestige of the franchise" or whatever crap that Jacques Demers said cryptically, before there was any evidence - nice to see a guy who is a friggin SENATOR, believe in the innocent until proven guilty. Considering his language issues and the crap he has put up with, its taken him longer to become a pretty complete player. next step is consistency to go from being a 20-25 goal scorer to a 30-35 goal scorer. It hasn't helped that the coaches have kept him moving around from one line to the next and last year, kept putting him with bums like Gomer. It's absolutely ridiculous that he is stuck with Gomez again while Darche is playing with Pleks.

AK46 has much more upside and is a much better physical player - much cleaner hitter then that bum Bourque that the flames had been trying to dump all year. But guess who plays with Pleks - Bourque.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pittsburgh has never entertained trading one of their big 3 centres for a winger. If they had seriously considered it, there would have been a lineup of bidders, and they probably would have preferred to move them to the Western Conference anyway.

But still no one was actually able to trade for them, which makes me believe what you keep saying was Plausible is nothing more than pure fantasy.

The Pens already have a plan for how they were going to deal with the problem of too many centres, they are going to move Malkin (who is poor on faceoffs) to the wing. They had started to do this, playing him with both Crosby and Staal just before he hurt his knee.

Any stories of Malkin being available has been nothing more than Eklund and Eklund wannabes trying to get hits. If it was ever seriously considered it would have been all over tsn, and it hasn't been.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The only way we get a center out of Pitts is if they decide they can't lock up Crosby because they can't insure the contract. If that is the case, he will probably hit the free agent market where we have some hope (he loves the Habs), but we won't be a sure thing either.

The best way to sign free agents is to convince them that for the same money offered elsewhere, they will be on a better team. Its not easy competing against the top few teams in the league when they decide they wants someone. Most teams will be in the Crosby sweepstakes, if they even happen.

As for the Gill trade, we got more for him then I expected. He is a rental, not a signed player. Not sure either player will pan out, but the pick is close to fair compensation, imo.

I have little use for Kaberle and wish we hadn't traded for him. This is because I felt this team was going nowhere, so why saddle us with his contract. I am sure PG figured Kaberle was just what we needed to make the playoffs. I disagree with PGs assessment of the team, but I understand why he signed Kaberle.

Gomez won't be taken by anyone, he will have to be bought out or banished.

AK is a 3rd line winger who plays like a 2nd line winger, 30 games a year. There are lots of those guys around the league. If he will take a contract that his production warrants, I have no issue with resigning him. If he wants to get paid like a top 6 scoring winger, then adios.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Blake Geoffrion has a ton of talent and played decent for Nashville last year, but has struggled this year. This could be a player where he needs a change of scenary. I like us being on that side of this deal for once. I still think Blake will be a quality player, not a great guy, but a 2nd/3rd line tweener.

I don't beleive he can be a 2nd liner well not on a healthy playoff team.

Bottom 6 for sure though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't beleive he can be a 2nd liner well not on a healthy playoff team.

Bottom 6 for sure though.

That's why I see him as a tweener, the 7th forward. A guy who you don't want in the top 6 full time but can play there during injuries. That's the realistic, assessment of him. But he's still young enough that maybe his offence flourishes in a new situation too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

First, i never said Gainey should have tried to get Malkin in 2009 - there would have been zero chance of that. In 2009, I would have kept Koivu - still don't get why Gainey treated the one guy on the team who gave it his all, yet wanted to resign Kovalev, who was moody and not much of a leader. You seem to forget that Gainey's master plan included resigning the "garbage" Kovelev, but only lucked out because the sens were stupid enough to offer Kovelev two years, versus Gainey's 1 year. If Kovelev accepted Gainey's offer, we would have had him instead of Gionta - another bullet Gainey dodged from his own ineptitude.

As far as calling Gomez an elite playmaker - give me a friggin break. Koivu in his last year with the habs had 16 goals, 34 assists for 50 points. In his last year with the Rangers (same year), Gomez had 16 goals 42 asists for 58 points. So basically Gainey dumped his captain Koivu for 8 extra assists and added what $3M to $3.5M to his cap hit for those extra eight "elite playmaker" assists.

I remember at that time you were overjoyed of picking up Gomez. I was pissed that we dumped Koivu, gave up McDonoagh (who many on this forum were comparing to Josef Balej or whatever his name was from the Kovelev trade).

Since the big gainey "Stealth rebuild", Koivu has put up 52, 45 and has 29 points so far this year. The "Elite" gomez put up 58, 38 and 9 points. So even in his first year with the habs (which you said he was good), Gomez put up an amazing 6 more points then Koivu, at 3 times the cap hit. BRILLIANT MOVE!!!

Before getting gomer pyle, Gainey was reportedly willing to move either of two reported packaged - Pleks, Higgins, SUbban for Vinny Lecavalier, or Pleks, Price, Subban for Vinny. Either deals would have been brutal. I don't know if we should be happy that Gainey did get Gomez instead of 11 years of Vinny!!!

As far as Malkin/Stall, I think if a team pushed hard - was bold, when Crosby had his hot start in 2010, and Stall/malkin were injured/struggling, by offering up a winger and Subban (whose value was through the roof at the time, that was a move that the Pens would plausibly would have been willing to make). Given that they saw first hand how Cammy burnt them the previous year in the playoffs and had a glimpse of Subban, they may have bit and we could have sweetend the pot more. Hell, for Malkin, as much as I love Pleks, I would have even been willing to through him in. The point that why didn't any other GM approach the pens - well how many GM's or teams, media, or fans had a clue that the FLyers would have traded their captain Richards and Carter - right after signing Carter to a 10 year deal???? You have to be bold and push when there is an oppertunity. I think that Crosby carrying the pens at the start of 2010 was an oppertunity that was missed, not just by the habs but by every other team.

As far as Martin goes, and the great job he did developing sens players - go read yesterday's Globe and Mail on the great contribution Martin made to Spezza's development. From the article it pretty much sounded like Martin almost ruined him, and Spezza was lucky because of the lockout. When did I compare Martin to Bowman??? What i said was that while Martin has 500 or how many other wins, he is not scotty bowman with a big winning percentage. Martin has lost almost as many, or more games as he has won. Just because he has been recycled by idiotic GM's doesn't make him a great coach. He almost messed up MaxPac. If you recall, i was posting on a regular basis that maxpac should be sent down to Hamilton. Getting away from martin was godsend for Maxpac. When he was in Hamilton he even said, he'd rather stay in hamilton rather then be a 3rd/4th liner in the NHL. Others on this site were constantly going on how Maxpac has no finish (much like they are about Eller now).

As far as Kaberle. I don't care if the guy scores 50 points, if he can't play friggin Defense!!!! This is not the 90's NHL, where a team like the wings can have a guy on their payroll like Larry Murphy to help their PP. We are in a cap system. We can't afford to have one Dman who is useless outside of the PP and another DMan Gill who is useless outside of the PK or tight playoff hockey. How many teams dress 7 dman with the regularity that we do???? Hell the way that PG has built the defence, we would need to dress 9 to make up for the deficiencies of our den. How many coaches play a 21 year old defence as a forward and expect a guy like Weber to actually develop into a bona fide NHL dman???? How many GM's have a guy like Weber and then sign an almost, older type clone (size, skating, style), in Diaz. Then on top of that sign another dman like Campoli who is lost on Defence????? I can see someone wanting a clone of Markov or Subban or gorges, but signing Campoli, Diaz with Weber already in the mix??? Then not content with having Campoli, Weber, Gill and Diaz, all guys who really don't play great defense (5 on 5) and aren't very physical (Gill is big, but was a marshmellow, who was a good shot blocker), PG trades for Kaberle, who also can't play defense!!!

You want my ideal situation in 2009 - which is not hindsight, but what i wanted in 2009 and posted as much - we keep Koivu, Pleks, Higgins and used Kovy's and Komi's cap space on UFA's to go after Gaborik - who the rangers were only able to sign because of Gainey's stupidity. The number 10 from the wild would have been the closest to getting the same type skill level of our wonderful retired #10. IF that didnt work, next target would have been Cammy. As much as i like Gionta and the heart he plays for, he is not someone I would have gone after or wanted. In hindsight, at least he has brought good leadership and plays hard, but he is not someone I would have targeted. The other guy i would have chased was Bertuzzi. polar opposite of going the smurf direction.

Lastly, there are reasons i like Ak46 is he represents something we lacked for a LONG time, until Maxpac broke out last year and since we picked up Cole (one of only two moves that I think PG should be commmended for). A SKILLED forward with SIZE, SCORING ability who plays PHYSICAL!! I would have no issue, with the habs moving him, IF they replaced him with someone else who had size, skill and had the potential to be a 30-35 goal scorer. AK46 got a raw deal in Montreal from Martin since the get go. He got a raw deal from the media over allegedly "blackening the prestige of the franchise" or whatever crap that Jacques Demers said cryptically, before there was any evidence - nice to see a guy who is a friggin SENATOR, believe in the innocent until proven guilty. Considering his language issues and the crap he has put up with, its taken him longer to become a pretty complete player. next step is consistency to go from being a 20-25 goal scorer to a 30-35 goal scorer. It hasn't helped that the coaches have kept him moving around from one line to the next and last year, kept putting him with bums like Gomer. It's absolutely ridiculous that he is stuck with Gomez again while Darche is playing with Pleks.

AK46 has much more upside and is a much better physical player - much cleaner hitter then that bum Bourque that the flames had been trying to dump all year. But guess who plays with Pleks - Bourque.

Well, just in case there's hard feelings, I wasn't trying to slag you with that post. Nor was I denying that your judgement has often been good. I was just pointing out that tendency to fume against the Habs for not doing X or Y, without actually knowing whether X or Y in fact was attempted, or whether it was realistic. Who says we didn't kick the tires on Malkin? Who says we could have signed Gaborik? For that matter, who says we wouldn't have signed Gaborik only watch him to suffer injury upon injury, as was his wont in Minny? Or that Bertuzzi would have signed here, or that he would have brought the decent-calibre game he's brought in Detroit, where he benefits from THE best team culture in all of hockey? Or that we could have locked up Pleks for a massive discount?

That sort of thing.

Reality always looks worse when compared to hypotheticals that may or may not have been tried, or been possible.

In fact, I've agreed with you on some of these points and on some others. I wasn't crazy about the Bourque trade, for instance. And, apart from Gainey's massive UFA sweep in 2009 - which I still think yielded a good team albeit one that melted down this season - I think we've tended to be too cautious. Indeed, I tend to admire teams like Philly, Boston, or even Burke in TO, that think outside the box and take bold risks for the sake of dramatic improvements. I also like teams that don't give a rat's ass about the cap, but rather get the players they want and fix the cap issues later.

In any case, we agree on one thing: time to hit a reset on this organization.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's why I see him as a tweener, the 7th forward. A guy who you don't want in the top 6 full time but can play there during injuries. That's the realistic, assessment of him. But he's still young enough that maybe his offence flourishes in a new situation too.

4 points in first 2 games in Hamilton, i lke it.

I think is hard to say where he could be in a couple years, just 2nd year pro so will have to see how rest of year and next fall go before really forming any real opinion? Even the Sedins started NHL as 3rd liners.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 points in first 2 games in Hamilton, i lke it.

I think is hard to say where he could be in a couple years, just 2nd year pro so will have to see how rest of year and next fall go before really forming any real opinion? Even the Sedins started NHL as 3rd liners.

Actually 5 points in 2 games. Another assist was awarded to him today in reviewing the goals.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I still think waiver eligibility or not we'll see him called up after the deadline. Especially if Montreal moves Darche.

Sorry, but that made me laugh, moving Darche. If there was a 12th round, we wouldn't get that for Darche.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...