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You're Marc Bergevin - What deal do you offer Subban?


dlbalr

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I have to be the guy that says the thread's too long to read it in its entirety but.... (sorry if this has been asked), does the potential of Subban sitting for a year burn that year as an RFA? I know in the case of a hold-out (ala Yashin, who was in the final year of his contract), that the contract is valid until the player plays out the duration of his contract (meaning sitting out didn't "complete" his contract). I'm guessing the year is burned with an RFA, however, and he's one year closer to UFA status.

The RFA year would be burned. Players are eligible to become UFA's at age 27, regardless of how many seasons they've played in the NHL.

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My bet is this is mostly about Meehan looking for another Doughty deal (he makes money on these deals and it helps him attract more players). I do suspect that PK's ego makes him easy prey for Meehan.

I find it interesting that no offer sheets have shown up, but there are a few teams getting desperate enough about their D that they might try it. Detroit is an obvious candidate but I don't think they have the cap space to offer anything significant.

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I think it's fair to say that PK is asking too much, and the teams offer. Is ALSO to low. Thus... On another note, no way does PK sit on his laurels. He is a work out demon and loves the ice also. This is probably the best guy for the Habs as an organisation in decades. He's the face already. He does everything you'd want in the community and gets along with everyone on his team but gets under thenskin of the opposition too. How perfect is that. Plus, he has the talent to be an all-star. No one needs to worry about PK. Many fans of the Habs are acting like children, the way they did with Price. Only Price deserved it a little bit. PK, NOT IN THE SLIGHTEST.

I'm not sure if you been following the team closely for the last 5 years or so, but I'll fill you in in case you haven't.

Price came in the league pegged as the second coming of Sir Patrick. That s an unbelievable amount of pressure on a 20 year old. He had his ups and he had his downs. From getting the starting job at 20 and expected to be Roy. To tanking at 21 then rumors swirling about a trade because Halak would not stay with Price there and Halak just came off an amazing playoff run. To bouncing back when everyone was on his back at 22. Considering his age and his first few years in the league, you can see reasoning for his attitude towards the fans and media. He had to learn to deal with the fans and media in his own way. Not to mention he isn't and will never be Patrick Roy.

Subban on the other hand was a bit different. He came in the league in midst of a 2 round playoff run, with no real huge expectations at that time and thrived. He got a spot in the starting core for Montreal where he had problems with other players off the ice. One incident where it leaked to media about Hal Gill was constantly at PK about not throwing his equipment around and picking up after himself, a clear sign of disrespect towards your teammates and surroundings. It seemed at the time that these incidents were frequent. For the next 2 years on and off PK and the coaches in arguments often during practices, mostly about his lack of effort either during drills or during game time. Players from other teams publicly citing PK's lack of respect. for his age, towards other teams and players during games.

While these reports are just quick examples, I can't remember any of the attitude problems with Price in the locker room. Price even had a real bad year, Halak took over and Price sat on the bench, quietly. So he isn't quite the work demon you believe he is and there is reason to worry about PK.

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The rumoured deal for Subban would be perfect. MB should sign that now.

4 million for 6 years including 2 UFA seasons..... I'd do a dance in the streets for that deal.

From what I understand teams cannot offer offer sheets til like July 1st.

They can do them at any time. Subban is RFA right now.

The July 1st is only for say a guy like Tuukka Rask. He'll be RFA after this seson, but no one could offer sheet him before July 1st

I have to be the guy that says the thread's too long to read it in its entirety but.... (sorry if this has been asked), does the potential of Subban sitting for a year burn that year as an RFA? I know in the case of a hold-out (ala Yashin, who was in the final year of his contract), that the contract is valid until the player plays out the duration of his contract (meaning sitting out didn't "complete" his contract). I'm guessing the year is burned with an RFA, however, and he's one year closer to UFA status.

Hopefully everything I've said is invalidated and Subban/Meehan and Bergevin agree sooner rather than later.

Yes, Subban is still UFA at 27. There is no change based on how many years he plays.

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Some quick notes from Pierre LeBrun on the Subban situation (plus the other current RFA's):

Bergevin insists he’s not going to trade Subban but one can’t help but wonder if this thing drags on too long if he’ll have to reconsider.

One thing is clear, Montreal’s insistence on doing a short-term deal signals that the Habs just aren’t sure about what they have in Subban just quite yet.

http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/id/21560/rumblings-will-stars-benn-be-first-to-re-sign

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I've been of the opinion that Subban deserves a long term deal and I like a player wanting to stay with us long term and that opinion isn't changing.

That said, I hope him and Bergevin decide they are getting nowhere and go with a one year deal that just fits under the cap so they can deal with this next summer.

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Yes, that is what you do.

Your top 6, if bonafide studs get an average of 6 million each. That leaves 30 osh million for the others. At an average of about 2 million a piece

I think many teams do it this way:

Top 6: 30 to 36 million

Next 6: 20 to 24 million

Next 6: 12 million

Next 6: 6 million

Nothing wrong with that at all

Seems to have worked for all the best teams of the last decade.

It's about making sure you get value for where you spend your money. About safely slotting the players where they belong. This is what the Habs need to get better at.

I feel confident in a future top 6 earning big contracts of:

Price, Patch, Chens, Subban, 2 others TBD (Markov has two years left as a top tier - hopefully he returns to near form and earns it)

followed by Pleks as a tier 2, maybe tier 1. Qualified tweener. Despite what people say, he's a stud two way centre. One of the best in the league. Every team needs a great two way centre if you don't have a truely elite centre. Hopefully Chens becomes that.

Etc.

Except paying those guys as your top 6 now means you aren't going to have a quality team for 2-3 years, at least, since they aren't yet at their peak. Further it's probable that those early signing risks don't all pan out as well as planned and you are stuck with 2-3 overpaid players. Most top teams pay a top 6 group of guys that kind of money BUT they also leverage a few quality young guys who are also CHEAP because of their RFA status.

I hope to god that some of you who advocate overpaying now because Subban is a nice guy...and has the potential (please look up what that means) to be very good...don't ever start a business.

If so, you can hire me and pay me a CEO salary because I could be a CEO one day...I'm a VP today, under 40 and have the potential for the executive suite...I also give to charity and volunteer coaching kids soccer and hockey. Would you pay me $500K+ with bonuses a year to be your VP? I realise the going VP rate is $120K but I'm a good guy and have the potential to run your business in 3-4 years.

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Make it 5M for 8 years and I'd join your dance. (that would not be gay if we would wear Habs jerseys, would it ?)

4 million for 6 years including 2 UFA seasons..... I'd do a dance in the streets for that deal.

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EK is saying 6 years @4million is on the table. Ok that and a dollar may get you a coffee somewhere but if (a big if) it was true, i would definitely suppport this. 4mill is a bout 1 mill too much but for 6 years, it makes sense because in a bout 3 years this may look like a steal. :habslogo:

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EK is saying 6 years @4million is on the table. Ok that and a dollar may get you a coffee somewhere but if (a big if) it was true, i would definitely suppport this. 4mill is a bout 1 mill too much but for 6 years, it makes sense because in a bout 3 years this may look like a steal. :habslogo:

If we could get Subban for that, MB should be named GM of the year, the day that deal is signed.

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Except paying those guys as your top 6 now means you aren't going to have a quality team for 2-3 years, at least, since they aren't yet at their peak. Further it's probable that those early signing risks don't all pan out as well as planned and you are stuck with 2-3 overpaid players. Most top teams pay a top 6 group of guys that kind of money BUT they also leverage a few quality young guys who are also CHEAP because of their RFA status.

I hope to god that some of you who advocate overpaying now because Subban is a nice guy...and has the potential (please look up what that means) to be very good...don't ever start a business.

If so, you can hire me and pay me a CEO salary because I could be a CEO one day...I'm a VP today, under 40 and have the potential for the executive suite...I also give to charity and volunteer coaching kids soccer and hockey. Would you pay me $500K+ with bonuses a year to be your VP? I realise the going VP rate is $120K but I'm a good guy and have the potential to run your business in 3-4 years.

Perhaps you would buy Apple stock in 2013. I bought in 1998. Everything in life is pretty much a calculated gamble. The same holds true in hockey.

By the way - PK is the best dman on one of 30 NHL teams. In addition, why should he be paid less than ageing and fading dmen like Kaberle and Markov. You bet your bottom dollar he wants more than them. And he's correct to think so.

Edited by dreegking
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Perhaps you would buy Apple stock in 2013. I bought in 1998. Everything in life is pretty much a calculated gamble. The same holds true in hockey.

By the way - PK is the best dman on one of 30 NHL teams. In addition, why should he be paid less than ageing and fading dmen like Kaberle and Markov. You bet your bottom dollar he wants more than them. And he's correct to think so.

This is absurd. He can think whatever he wants but he has no leverage to negotiate a better contract then veteran UFA's. If he doesn't like it then he should complain to the NHLPA. It remains to be seen if he's better then Markov and, fwiw, the Habs didn't sign Kaberle to that ridiculous deal...

Signing a player to a signficant deal when you can sign them to a cheaper deal is not a calculated gamble...it's just stupid.

Your Apple stock comment makes no sense...the correct analogy is that you would have paid the equivalent of Apple's share price TODAY in 1998 simply because you thought it would be worth that one day.

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Don't worry about Subban's contract. Sooner or later, it's going to be resolved, one way or the other. Meanwhile, the team will learn to play without him and that's a good thing. BTW, when you look at Markov, you understand how much that guy's absence hurt the team, and the difference between him and Subban. I love P.K., but he still has a lot to learn to become as good as an aging Markov.

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Don't worry about Subban's contract. Sooner or later, it's going to be resolved, one way or the other. Meanwhile, the team will learn to play without him and that's a good thing. BTW, when you look at Markov, you understand how much that guy's absence hurt the team, and the difference between him and Subban. I love P.K., but he still has a lot to learn to become as good as an aging Markov.

Subban isn't Markov at his best yet but he's closer at a younger age. That's what is important here. Markov is 34. We'd be lucky to get five more seasons out of him. I'm guessing more like three. Subban, however, we probably have 10+ if he stays healthy. That's the difference here. Why limit our depth?

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Nobody is trying to limit our depth. We are managing the price of our depth. It is quite different and very sound, on a business basis.

Eventually you have to realize that overpaying on your original number by a million would mean you have to play someone on your 6th line that isn't as good, but that means the bulk of your minutes is taken up by a much better player. That's a worthy sacrifice.

It's so funny to me when someone calls a player overpaid and it's by $500K. As if that $500K was the difference between a Cup and a lottery pick.

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Especially after last night's game, you have to wonder. If we continue to play like that, and Subban continues to sit on contract talks, wouldn't his value start getting lower? I know he's a quality player, but I'm assuming Meehan is increasing Subban's value according to how much the team needs Subban. That being said, if Meehan and Subban see the team being successful without him, shouldn't his value go down?

Also, another food or thought. How much is Subban worth to the team when he is putting his short-term future and development in jeopardy for money?

I'm seriously coming to terms with if Subban isn't signed by the end of the week, just trade him. Even Doughty didn't lose important games over contract. This greed issue bugs me, especially after Subban telling the media he wants to play in Montreal and that is all he's focusing on. If this were true, I can't help but believe he would have been playing since the 19th.

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Trading Subban accomplishes nothing. Then everything depends on a 34-year-old injury-prone Markov, with no prospective #1 defenceman ready to replace him as he declines. Unless Markov miraculously stays both superb and healthy for years to come, we will need to replace what Subban brings or else say goodbye to any dream of contending within the next 5 years.

No thanks.

But you're right that Subban's leverage diminishes insofar as Markov continues to dominate and the team plays well. This is the best-case scenario for Bergevin and probably just what he was hoping for.

It's a business. For better or worse, Subban is standing by his agent. Once signed, though, I have no doubt he will give his all for the team just as he's done for the past two seasons. I don't think we should be making decisions regarding core players out of spite.

One thing's for sure, though - that display by #79 really undercored the difference between Subban and a genuine all-star calibre #1 defenceman. I've been saying consistently that Subban, at present, is a quality #2 defenceman on a good team. I think Markov just proved me right.

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Especially after last night's game, you have to wonder. If we continue to play like that, and Subban continues to sit on contract talks, wouldn't his value start getting lower? I know he's a quality player, but I'm assuming Meehan is increasing Subban's value according to how much the team needs Subban. That being said, if Meehan and Subban see the team being successful without him, shouldn't his value go down?

Also, another food or thought. How much is Subban worth to the team when he is putting his short-term future and development in jeopardy for money?

I'm seriously coming to terms with if Subban isn't signed by the end of the week, just trade him. Even Doughty didn't lose important games over contract. This greed issue bugs me, especially after Subban telling the media he wants to play in Montreal and that is all he's focusing on. If this were true, I can't help but believe he would have been playing since the 19th.

I agree with you. The Subban situation can't be compared to Dougthy's strike. Not only Dougthy had accomplished more, he was with a better team, the urgency to play was not the same. He did not look like blackmailing; in the case of Subban, unfortunately it does. He sends the message that he is ready to hurt his teammates to get what he wants. He also doesn't look bothered by the fact that he has not played since April and that the others will have quite a few steps over him once he will be ready to play -- a situation that will only get worse if he doesn't sign soon.

The fact is that I am very disappointed by his attitude and doubt that his career with the Habs will be long.

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It's so funny to me when someone calls a player overpaid and it's by $500K. As if that $500K was the difference between a Cup and a lottery pick.

On a one-player basis, you're absolutely right. If it becomes a pattern (having to overpay by that amount or so) to bring in UFA's or extend RFA's, cumulatively it becomes a problem. Perhaps not to the extent of being a Cup team or having a high lottery pick but 6 overpayments of that type of money is a productive $3 million player. The Habs already have a lot of those guys on their roster so I can appreciate where some fans may be hoping the trend doesn't continue.

That said, if management deems he is a franchise-type player (I suspect they don't at this point), it would make more sense to 'overpay' by that gap if the belief is that he will ultimately be worth it in the end than it would giving that extra amount to a pricey role player, something this team did back in the offseason with Prust.

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