You're Marc Bergevin - What deal do you offer Subban?

[brobin]

Benn signed, 5 years, 5.25. Not a great contract relative to his free agency timing. I think they only bought a singe year, but I am not positive.

I don't see PK getting more then that, in fact, I see him worth less, although forward vs D is always tough. In any case, I think this leaves

PK as the last big name hold out.

[Zowpeb]

I'm just stunned at some posters around here who simply refuse to understand simple economics, RFA vs UFA status, and how it relates to player value. Our education system is seriously failing...

This team has a salary cap. Therefore payroll obligations are finite and limited...when you pay more then you need to then you take away available money to sign other talent. Therefore your team is going to be worse. Not hard to understand folks.

This has nothing to do with Subban's results the past 2 years...it has everything to do with his lack of leverage to negotiate. If he gets $4M per year then the Habs are being generous based on the fact he can't generate competition to sign him. All he can do is withhold services and hope he gets signed to an offer sheet (unlikely) or demand a trade...in the end his smartest move is to sign a short term deal, play his but off and then sign a long term deal. Hell, he'd likely make out similarly on an annual pay basis when you consider that even a long term deal now would likely be loaded towards the final few years...all the Habs are doing is mitigating risk by wanting a shorter term deal.

[JoeLassister]

And I'm stunned at some posters who can't believe that Subban wants more than the Del Zotto's deal just because RFA are not supposed to get 100% of what they deserve based on their game and pts and duty load. Enough with the lowballing. Pay Subban what he deserves for 2 years and he'll sign it.

[bbp]

I'm just stunned at some posters around here who simply refuse to understand simple economics, RFA vs UFA status, and how it relates to player value. Our education system is seriously failing...

I don't think our education system teaches the economics of sports... Don't blame the system yo!

[hab29RETIRED]

I'm just stunned at some posters around here who simply refuse to understand simple economics, RFA vs UFA status, and how it relates to player value. Our education system is seriously failing...

This team has a salary cap. Therefore payroll obligations are finite and limited...when you pay more then you need to then you take away available money to sign other talent. Therefore your team is going to be worse. Not hard to understand folks.

This has nothing to do with Subban's results the past 2 years...it has everything to do with his lack of leverage to negotiate. If he gets $4M per year then the Habs are being generous based on the fact he can't generate competition to sign him. All he can do is withhold services and hope he gets signed to an offer sheet (unlikely) or demand a trade...in the end his smartest move is to sign a short term deal, play his but off and then sign a long term deal. Hell, he'd likely make out similarly on an annual pay basis when you consider that even a long term deal now would likely be loaded towards the final few years...all the Habs are doing is mitigating risk by wanting a shorter term deal.

I think we all understand UFA vs RFA. However, when the oilers signed Horcoff to $5M they screwed themselves with what they have to pay for Eberle and Hall while they are still RFA's. Similarly, when the habs TRADED for such a horrible contract that that bum Kaberle has they screwed themselves. Why the hell would Subban want to play for less money then Kaberle, Bourque, Prust or others that don't mean as much to him???? Particularly when other RFA's are getting big pay days????

With Subban and Markov we have a very good defence. Without Subban, we have Markov, but an average to below average defence. If Markov keeps up his play AND we sign Subban, I'm VERY optimistic we can make the playoffs - and I tend to be a glass is empty type of guy.

If you worked with an incompetent idiot and were being paid less then him, would you want to stick around or go find an employer who is willing to pay you??? And believe me, if this drags on over to the summer, after teams can exercise their buyouts that actually reduce their cap hit, someone WILL make an offer.

[hab29RETIRED]

I'm just stunned at some posters around here who simply refuse to understand simple economics, RFA vs UFA status, and how it relates to player value. Our education system is seriously failing...

This team has a salary cap. Therefore payroll obligations are finite and limited...when you pay more then you need to then you take away available money to sign other talent. Therefore your team is going to be worse. Not hard to understand folks.

This has nothing to do with Subban's results the past 2 years...it has everything to do with his lack of leverage to negotiate. If he gets $4M per year then the Habs are being generous based on the fact he can't generate competition to sign him. All he can do is withhold services and hope he gets signed to an offer sheet (unlikely) or demand a trade...in the end his smartest move is to sign a short term deal, play his but off and then sign a long term deal. Hell, he'd likely make out similarly on an annual pay basis when you consider that even a long term deal now would likely be loaded towards the final few years...all the Habs are doing is mitigating risk by wanting a shorter term deal.

He has leverage. Witholding his services is a huge leverage to someone who is adamant to be paid his true value. Coffey did it, which got him dealt out of Edmonton. Gilmour did it which netted the leafs a game breaker and the flames a bum like Leeman.

Players that exercised their RIGHT to withhold their services have also won - as did their teams. Ken Dryden did it and the habs got 4 cups with him on the team. Last year Doughty did an the kings got a cup.

[Commandant]

Funny how John Carlson and Tyler Myers were RFA defencemen who got paid a lot more than what Bergevin is offering.

Funny how Jamie Benn, Taylor Hall, Tyler Seguin, Jordan Eberle, and others were RFA forwards who got paid a lot more than what Bergevin is offering.

So much for RFAs having no leverage.

[hab29RETIRED]

Funny how John Carlson and Tyler Myers were RFA defencemen who got paid a lot more than what Bergevin is offering.

Funny how Jamie Benn, Taylor Hall, Tyler Seguin, Jordan Eberle, and others were RFA forwards who got paid a lot more than what Bergevin is offering.

So much for RFAs having no leverage.

Agreed. Managing cap space is about offering RFA's more by buying UFA years early AND signing the right guys to big $ deals. I'd rather sign guys who are up on the upward side of their career, rather then just throwing stupid money to UFA's who are usually approaching their downward trend.

I had actually hoped the Habs would have signed Subban to a Myers type of contract prior to the lockout. Could have locked him long-term cheap, by offering a big signing bonuses built in.

[JoeLassister]

Funny how John Carlson and Tyler Myers were RFA defencemen who got paid a lot more than what Bergevin is offering.

Funny how Jamie Benn, Taylor Hall, Tyler Seguin, Jordan Eberle, and others were RFA forwards who got paid a lot more than what Bergevin is offering.

So much for RFAs having no leverage.

Exactly. Subban has 0 good reason not to believe that he should sign for AT LEAST the type of money Fowler makes and that is 4M$ per season.

And for whatever group of RFA or UFA Subban could be par of...

[hab29RETIRED]

With Meszaros injury in Philly and if there play doesn't improve, you have to wonder if they would offer sheet Subban.

[JCPetit]

I'm just stunned at some posters around here who simply refuse to understand simple economics, RFA vs UFA status, and how it relates to player value. Our education system is seriously failing...

This team has a salary cap. Therefore payroll obligations are finite and limited...when you pay more then you need to then you take away available money to sign other talent. Therefore your team is going to be worse. Not hard to understand folks.

This has nothing to do with Subban's results the past 2 years...it has everything to do with his lack of leverage to negotiate. If he gets $4M per year then the Habs are being generous based on the fact he can't generate competition to sign him. All he can do is withhold services and hope he gets signed to an offer sheet (unlikely) or demand a trade...in the end his smartest move is to sign a short term deal, play his but off and then sign a long term deal. Hell, he'd likely make out similarly on an annual pay basis when you consider that even a long term deal now would likely be loaded towards the final few years...all the Habs are doing is mitigating risk by wanting a shorter term deal.

Good post. Sounds obvious to me, but apparently it is not.

[brobin]

People throw around comparables which often aren't. There is a claim that PK should not take Del Zotto money, but I don't see people claiming he should. The claim is he should take Del Zotto TERM. Everything I have heard is that PK wants long term, Berg wants bridge. I think there is plenty of evidence that a bridge deal is standard practice in Montreal. PK is not being singled out by Berg.

Once they agree on term, then then will decide money. I would be shocked if he doesn't get more per year then Del Zotto.

[JoeLassister]

With Meszaros injury in Philly and if there play doesn't improve, you have to wonder if they would offer sheet Subban.

Exactly what I'd want to happen. Philly throwing 7 years and 31,5M$ at Subban.

PK signs it. Habs match. We lock him for 7 years BOOOM !!!!

But there were some posts about July 1st for offer sheet... What's up with that ?

[brobin]

Philly has zero cap space. How are they going to offer PK that kind of deal?

[hab29RETIRED]

Philly has zero cap space. How are they going to offer PK that kind of deal?

Philly has never let cap space stop them. If they want to, they'll make a trade. If Mezaros is out for the season, that will also free up some room.

Exactly what I'd want to happen. Philly throwing 7 years and 31,5M$ at Subban.

PK signs it. Habs match. We lock him for 7 years BOOOM !!!!

But there were some posts about July 1st for offer sheet... What's up with that ?

My worry is that we'd opt for the picks. I also think that if its an offer sheet it would be for money to discourage matching.

[Helmethead]

With PK supposedly instructing Meehan to find "grounds for agreement quickly" Part of me thinks there is a chance MB does a 180o and suddenly throws a 8yr-38mil offer on the table, with PK jumping all over it like sailor on a port hooker.

Meehan would of course counter at 40mil and all is well in Habsville again.

[JCPetit]

With PK supposedly instructing Meehan to find "grounds for agreement quickly" Part of me thinks there is a chance MB does a 180o and suddenly throws a 8yr-38mil offer on the table, with PK jumping all over it like sailor on a port hooker.

Meehan would of course counter at 40mil and all is well in Habsville again.

Wishful thinking. MB is going to stick to his gun. You just have to listen what the former Habs say at RDS to understand that management is very comfortable with the offer it has left on the table. I don't say that it ca't be improved. Just that MB is patiently waiting for Subban to come to his sense and sign a reasonable agreement (which is far from the numbers you are talking about).

[bar]

Exactly what I'd want to happen. Philly throwing 7 years and 31,5M$ at Subban.

PK signs it. Habs match. We lock him for 7 years BOOOM !!!!

But there were some posts about July 1st for offer sheet... What's up with that ?

I'm almost 100% sure that teasm cannot make offer sheets til July 1st 2013.

[Zowpeb]

Exactly what I'd want to happen. Philly throwing 7 years and 31,5M$ at Subban.

PK signs it. Habs match. We lock him for 7 years BOOOM !!!!

But there were some posts about July 1st for offer sheet... What's up with that ?

If Subban was to get an offer sheet at that level the Habs would certainly match it. It's really the only leverage, outside of sitting out, that Subban has to get a long term deal he wants. However, why would Philly waste their time signing him to an offer sheet the Habs would surely match? They gain nothing and it's a waste of their time and effort. The only way someone signs Subban to an offer sheet is if they think they have a chance of not only Subban accepting it BUT that the Habs may not match...that will require over $6M per year for probably 7 years. I don't see any team making that offer sheet unless this drags out for another 4-6 weeks.

You keep talking about the Habs paying him what he "deserves"...sounds like a child, or Quebec university student, talking about their entitlements. LOL

Seriously, no one is saying that Subban won't one day be worth those kinds of dollars on the UFA market...he very likely will. This is about the Habs not being in a position where they have to pay for future risk (Subban could get injured, could regress, become a locker room cancer, fall into the Montreal party scene as many others have, etc)...so the Habs SHOULD be looking for a bridge deal on any young RFA. In 2 years, they can offer Subban his big deal...he'll have a proven track record and, hopefully, a pattern of consistency (something his short career has not defined yet).

As someone pointed out earlier, this is really ridiculous on Subban's part...he could probably sign for $3.5M and $4M over the next 2 years before signing a bigger increase that encompasses a couple UFA years. Instead he wants a long term deal...which would, in all likelihood, be structured something like $3.5M/$4M/$5M/$6M/$6.5M/$7M. So in the end, it's all about him wanting to force the Habs to commit those bigger years now...he wants a guarantee against all the risk the Habs have concern about (ie. the injury risk, regression risk, locker room risk, etc). Why should the Habs cave in to that? It's a very dangerous precedent...Subban is 1-2 years early in making this kind of demand.

If he was as committed as he claims then he'd just say, fine, let's sign a 1 year $3.5M deal and talk again in the summer where we can negotiate without it impacting the team...and he get's one more year (albeit shortened) to try and show he's worth more and push for the longer deal.

[Zowpeb]

With PK supposedly instructing Meehan to find "grounds for agreement quickly" Part of me thinks there is a chance MB does a 180o and suddenly throws a 8yr-38mil offer on the table, with PK jumping all over it like sailor on a port hooker.

Meehan would of course counter at 40mil and all is well in Habsville again.

That would be ridiculous for Subban...he'd leave a lot of future earning potential on the table. Subban WILL one day be worth $6M per year...basic cap inflation alone will push salaries up, though I'm confident he'll eventually be that good even in today's dollars. Why would you want this if you're Subban?

The issue is that the Habs shouldn't COMMIT to paying the big future dollars yet. Too much changes in how they need to organize the team.

[huzer]

For those throwing money around...I thought the disagreement hinged mainly on term (I'm sure dollars, too). Where is everyone gathering these mythical lowball numbers from? And saying the Habs are offering less than what they pay Prust has got to be downright silly, he's a $2.5M cap hit.

[kaos]

They offer Id make to Subban along with a contract like Giontas + some other picks and prospects is to the Washington Capitals for Alex Ovechkin.

[dlbalr]

Meehan and Bergevin are meeting today to discuss Subban's deal. Per Nick Kypreos, he's looking for at least the deal that Benn got. https://twitter.com/RealKyper/status/294828570293968896

[JoeLassister]

If Subban was to get an offer sheet at that level the Habs would certainly match it. It's really the only leverage, outside of sitting out, that Subban has to get a long term deal he wants. However, why would Philly waste their time signing him to an offer sheet the Habs would surely match? They gain nothing and it's a waste of their time and effort. The only way someone signs Subban to an offer sheet is if they think they have a chance of not only Subban accepting it BUT that the Habs may not match...that will require over $6M per year for probably 7 years. I don't see any team making that offer sheet unless this drags out for another 4-6 weeks.

You keep talking about the Habs paying him what he "deserves"...sounds like a child, or Quebec university student, talking about their entitlements. LOL

Seriously, no one is saying that Subban won't one day be worth those kinds of dollars on the UFA market...he very likely will. This is about the Habs not being in a position where they have to pay for future risk (Subban could get injured, could regress, become a locker room cancer, fall into the Montreal party scene as many others have, etc)...so the Habs SHOULD be looking for a bridge deal on any young RFA. In 2 years, they can offer Subban his big deal...he'll have a proven track record and, hopefully, a pattern of consistency (something his short career has not defined yet).

As someone pointed out earlier, this is really ridiculous on Subban's part...he could probably sign for $3.5M and $4M over the next 2 years before signing a bigger increase that encompasses a couple UFA years. Instead he wants a long term deal...which would, in all likelihood, be structured something like $3.5M/$4M/$5M/$6M/$6.5M/$7M. So in the end, it's all about him wanting to force the Habs to commit those bigger years now...he wants a guarantee against all the risk the Habs have concern about (ie. the injury risk, regression risk, locker room risk, etc). Why should the Habs cave in to that? It's a very dangerous precedent...Subban is 1-2 years early in making this kind of demand.

If he was as committed as he claims then he'd just say, fine, let's sign a 1 year $3.5M deal and talk again in the summer where we can negotiate without it impacting the team...and he get's one more year (albeit shortened) to try and show he's worth more and push for the longer deal.

In my opinion, paying for future risk >>>>>>>> losing Subban because they don't.

Overpaying Subban >>>>>> Not playing Subban.

I totally don't care how much money he makes. As long as he's on the ice when we face Boston.

[REV-G]

I read that CJAD staffer/writer Chantel Desjardins reported that PK has told his agent to get a quick settlement to a new contact. This is good news if the report is accurate. Someone has to be willing to move if this is going to be resolved and gets PK signed with us. Does anyone know who Chantel is and if she is a good credible source?