You're Marc Bergevin - What deal do you offer Subban?

[Zowpeb]

blah...an average of $4.5M a year offer over 4 years is very fair and probably slightly more then he should get at this point. Just go there and be done with it.

If he doesn't like it then offer him 2 years at $4M per...if he looks good over those 2 years he'll have a chance to renew with a bigger raise for a longer time frame. If he wants longer term security then his agent needs to understand they aren't going to pay him TODAY for the player he MAY become...they need to make that known. If someone wants to throw him an offer sheet (which I think would skewer that GM so soon after the lock-out) then let them try...and then decide if you want to keep him at a dollar figure that is probably still going to be less then he allegedly wants now.

[tebo64]

If a player is over paid does it mean all other players must be or will have to be overpaid? Kaberle was not Bergevin's mistake, he has a structure and if he wants credibility with the players and management will will stick to his structure. That does not mean he is stuck to a certain amount but it has to fit in his team structure. I think we need to think long term for the team success.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

He doesn't lose any leverage if the D plays well. Fact is, Subban is an asset and not playing an asset weakens the team depth. Is the D playing well? Great, then it will be even better with Subban. No assets to trade needed. Just sign on the line that is dotted.

[brobin]

He doesn't lose any leverage if the D plays well. Fact is, Subban is an asset and not playing an asset weakens the team depth. Is the D playing well? Great, then it will be even better with Subban. No assets to trade needed. Just sign on the line that is dotted.

But he does... If Markov is back and truly our number one guy, Emelin takes another step forward, Kaberle rocks on the Pp, etc... Then Bergevin is under no pressure to sign a deal. He can also point out that while we needed all those minutes from PK last year, we don't need as much now... Not good for PKs negotiating position. Of course, it can go the other way too...

[TurdBurglar]

Eklund is reporting the deal is close, possibly by the end of today we'll have one. The sides got close by upping the years offered to 8.

I'm guessing it's gonna be around the $5.5m mark. An 8 @ $5.5m contract is good for Subban as he is now, if he continues to improve it's a great deal. I think anything 6 or over for that term is making a huge mistake.

EDIT: Made an edit, I accidently put TSN instead of Eklund. Don't want to mix up a good source with an unreliable one.

[Trizzak]

Eklund is reporting the deal is close,

Well then it's confirmed... PK will be traded.

[ForumGhost]

Wow, so many people apparently don't care to see Subban signed unless it's for dimes? Fact is, you have to pay good money to keep your talent. If you just throw up you hands, say 'screw it, he wants too much money', and trade him for something less valuable, you're team will always be stuck in mediocrity. PK is obviously an outstanding talent. You can't keep players like him around without dipping into the bank.

[JCPetit]

Wow, so many people apparently don't care to see Subban signed unless it's for dimes? Fact is, you have to pay good money to keep your talent. If you just throw up you hands, say 'screw it, he wants too much money', and trade him for something less valuable, you're team will always be stuck in mediocrity. PK is obviously an outstanding talent. You can't keep players like him around without dipping into the bank.

It's not the money that is the problem, it's the number of years. Quite different.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

But he does... If Markov is back and truly our number one guy, Emelin takes another step forward, Kaberle rocks on the Pp, etc... Then Bergevin is under no pressure to sign a deal. He can also point out that while we needed all those minutes from PK last year, we don't need as much now... Not good for PKs negotiating position. Of course, it can go the other way too...

Again, Markov and Kaberle are in their mid 30s. Even if they play great, the team is not going to do much without depth. The team has no scoring depth after Subban, Markov and Kaberle on the back end. How hard is this to understand? Emelin is not going to become anything more than maybe a 20 point player leeching second assists off his D partner. Bergevin is under a lot of pressure to keep his number one defenceman from last year and one of the cornerstones of this franchise.

As for all of those minutes, what happens if Markov or Kaberle goes down? We suddenly have a crippled PP and we're once again playing a forward on the backend. Yeah. Fantastic. Go Cup crazy folks! We need Subban. Same as if this was Price or Pacioretty holding out.

[JCPetit]

Again, Markov and Kaberle are in their mid 30s. Even if they play great, the team is not going to do much without depth. The team has no scoring depth after Subban, Markov and Kaberle on the back end. How hard is this to understand? Emelin is not going to become anything more than maybe a 20 point player leeching second assists off his D partner. Bergevin is under a lot of pressure to keep his number one defenceman from last year and one of the cornerstones of this franchise.

As for all of those minutes, what happens if Markov or Kaberle goes down? We suddenly have a crippled PP and we're once again playing a forward on the backend. Yeah. Fantastic. Go Cup crazy folks! We need Subban. Same as if this was Price or Pacioretty holding out.

What we need more than Subban is great management. We need a GM that has a plan and can stick to it. Of course, one has to be flexible, but there is also a limit to that. If Subban and his agent are not able to understand that, so be it. I am 100% behind the GM.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

What we need more than Subban is great management. We need a GM that has a plan and can stick to it. Of course, one has to be flexible, but there is also a limit to that. If Subban and his agent are not able to understand that, so be it. I am 100% behind the GM.

If Bergevin ends up having to sacrifice for one player, it doesn't destroy his plan. People need to stop thinking in absolutes. Again, Dean Lombardi didn't want to sign Drew Doughty on a long term deal for $7M per at 21. Guess what? He still got a ring and the Kings are not destroyed on some twisted downward spiral due to the Drew Doughty contract.

[JCPetit]

Subban will have to compromise. No way he will be signed to a seven or eight years contract. Forget that.

[sakiqc]

For a player as confident as PK, why is he hanging on signing a long term contract right now? Is it because he knows he is not what he makes fans/management believe him to be? If I'm PK, I want a small deal and sign a huge deal in a couple years, when my value will have skyrocketed. If I'm management, I want to lock PK long term now at a reasonable cost, while he is still progressing and hasn't reached his full value yet. My feeling is that PK wants the contract he could have 3 years from now if everything goes as he plans (win a couple Norris and Conn Smythe). Sorry PK, we all like you but you have to earn your way and we'll be very glad for you when you get it.

[Helmethead]

Because Kaberle was a free agent brought in by the last, and desperate, GM. Comparables are nice negotiating tools, but leverage is what counts. PK has little leverage this season. If he was the final piece on a cup contender, then he would have lots of leverage. At this point, PK has to decide if he wants to sit to see if his leverage improves. For example, Markov sucks, Kaberle is worse. The team is in a playoff position, etc. something to make Bergevin need PK back in the lineup. On the other hand, if the D look pretty good without him, he loses even more leverage.

This is the key. Fan base thinks we suck, hence it's ok to play hard ball with PK since "we aren't going anywhere anyway" and "it will only help our overall draft position."

Problem is, we don't suck as bad as our record showed last season. We will win our share of games and be in the thick of things come end March - mid april. Theoretical leverage in the fans and press' eyes just went out the window. Pressure's on now; what do you do?

My opinion? 8yrs @ a shade under $5mil per year.

[sakiqc]

This is the key. Fan base thinks we suck, hence it's ok to play hard ball with PK since "we aren't going anywhere anyway" and "it will only help our overall draft position."

Problem is, we don't suck as bad as our record showed last season. We will win our share of games and be in the thick of things come end March - mid april. Theoretical leverage in the fans and press' eyes just went out the window. Pressure's on now; what do you do?

My opinion? 8yrs @ a shade under $5mil per year.

That would be great but PK won't sign that.

[JCPetit]

You give a player what you, the boss, thinks he deserves. Obviously, Subban has a very high opinion of himself. Bergevin has no obligation to satisfy his player's ego. As a manager, he has to make a business decision, nothing else.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

That would be great but PK won't sign that.

Talk is that Bergevin and Meehan are not arguing money. The money is agreed upon (and it's not a ridiculous amount). It's the term that Bergevin refuses to budge on right now and Subban wants between six and eight years.

[JCPetit]

Talk is that Bergevin and Meehan are not arguing money. The money is agreed upon (and it's not a ridiculous amount). It's the term that Bergevin refuses to budge on right now and Subban wants between six and eight years.

That's what has been written all over the place from the beginning. The problem is the length of the contract and it's not a small issue.

[sakiqc]

That's what has been written all over the place from the beginning. The problem is the length of the contract and it's not a small issue.

If the problem is the length, then most probably PK wants the shorter one, while Bergevin wants the longest one.

If it's 5M/year, I could see PK wanting 2-3 years, then look for a new contract at 6+/yr

[Machine of Loving Grace]

If the problem is the length, then most probably PK wants the shorter one, while Bergevin wants the longest one.

Again, what is being reported is that Bergevin wants a bridge contract while Subban wants a long term deal now. Bergevin wants him to be an RFA in two seasons when Markov, Kaberle and Gionta are UFA so he can sign him for whatever and not worry about his cap next year. Subban wants to be a Hab for the rest of his career now.

Unrelated to your reply but it's kind of funny how people think banking on Markov and Kaberle playing well is somehow a disadvantage for Subban. I'm pretty sure the same people saying, "Sit or trade Subban and see how Kaberle does" are the same people saying, "Buy out Kaberle in the summer"

[brobin]

Again, Markov and Kaberle are in their mid 30s. Even if they play great, the team is not going to do much without depth. The team has no scoring depth after Subban, Markov and Kaberle on the back end. How hard is this to understand? Emelin is not going to become anything more than maybe a 20 point player leeching second assists off his D partner. Bergevin is under a lot of pressure to keep his number one defenceman from last year and one of the cornerstones of this franchise.

As for all of those minutes, what happens if Markov or Kaberle goes down? We suddenly have a crippled PP and we're once again playing a forward on the backend. Yeah. Fantastic. Go Cup crazy folks! We need Subban. Same as if this was Price or Pacioretty holding out.

I don't think you understand what I am saying. In the short term, Subban sitting out has no leverage if the team is getting along fine without him. If Markov goes down, then he will have leverage. I am not talking about trading him, I am talking about leverage while he sits.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Huh. Well, this is puzzling. If money isn't the issue, then how can term be the problem?

Say, for the sake of argument, you agree that PK is - at present - worth $4.5 million a year (not unreasonable for a #2 defenceman on a good team, which is what PK is at this stage in his development). Let's even be generous and adjust for Quebec taxes; that comes to $5 mil per. OK. Buyouts considered, is that really sufficient to put us way over the cap next season? Are there other huge RFA contracts we expect to be signing this summer? Then what's the problem? Or does MB (somehow) think we can contend next season and wants the extra cap space in order to sign a short-term UFA who he thinks will put us over the top?

If, again, you agree on the salary that PK's performance warrants, why would you want PK to sign at that rate for only two years rather than, say, 6 - unless you think his game is going to regress??

I can see Bergevin digging in on salary and saying, look, you're RFA, take less now, you'll make it up later. I can see PK wanting to be paid big dollars on a long-term deal predicated on his continued ascension to 'star' status. That's the dispute that makes sense. But I don't comprehend the idea of Bergevin agreeing that PK is worth X, but not wanting to lock him up.

Maybe I'm missing something. Help me out.

[brobin]

The only credible sources I have heard say it is all about term with Bergevin wanting two to three, Subban six. That is a huge difference as one leaves him an RFA and the other makes him a FA at the end.

The other issue is definitely around the reluctance of a new GM to hand out a long term deal to such a young player. That could turn into an albatross around his neck. I bet if PK agreed to a bridge deal, they would come to terms on money pretty quick.

[JCPetit]

It's easy to deal with other people's money. The reality is that a sound business must be run by following strict rules. Bergevin, obviously, has a disciplined approach regarding salaries and contracts. I am glad he does and hopes that he won't make an exception with Subban. The young man might be very good, but he has not shown that he is a great teammate to me. If we give him the moon this year, I wonder who will control him on and off the ice.

I hope for a two years contract (two at the most) with a salary of 3.5 million per year. He should be able to make do with that.

[hab29RETIRED]

If Lombardi stuck to his guns last year and didn't resign Dowdy, would the kings have won the cup last year?

In these situations things can get ugly quickly- that's how the Flames ended up moving Gilmour for Leeman.

The first time I heard the quote it was from Harry Neale:

If you start listening to the fans, pretty soon you'll be sitting up there with 'em.

Yup. I've moved toward a hard-liner position on the PK thing. Bergevin must do what is best for the organization in pure hockey terms. That means not knuckling under to agents or fans - and hopefully not to interfering ownership either (some posters have suggested that Molson will 'force' Bergevin to sign PK, apparently failing to realize that if that happens, it will be a very ominous signal for our ability to ice a winning team going forward). MB has to make his stand here and now and establish that the Montreal Canadiens are an elite organization committed to excellence and winning...nothing else.