Jump to content

Habs toughness questioned once again?


HabsHeaven

Recommended Posts

I continue to be surprised at the emergence of this club. Wildcard is still, IMO, a generous term for the team...I think there has been a lot of smoke and mirrors that, in a short season, will have fans thinking this club is better then it is. Frankly, I can't believe people are talking about trading Leblanc for a bottom 6 grinder...that's beyond ridiculous and flies in the face of building an organization that needs to develop "waves" of young talent throughout it's levels.

I'm a little torn about my off-season, and early season, comments to trade guys for picks/prospects...obviously the club is doing well and I have no problem eating crow. But ya know what, I'd still rather see the Habs trade Ryder and Gionta for the best prospects they can because I still don't see this team being close to a contender...and playing for the playoffs is Leafs Hockey. I'd still like to see if then can get a couple 1st rounders and try to deal into the top 3 again. I maintain that this club is playing way over it's head. Outside of Subban, Markov, Pleks, MaxPac, Price, Galchenyuk, Emelin no one should be untouchable...though I like Prust, Gorges and would think they'd need to be blown away to consider dealing some other young guys on the big club...I'm referring primarily to Diaz, Gallagher and Eller.

If you were really stuck on "going for it" then I'd want Iginla as a rental.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'd want to move Gionta in the off season. With bourque and Prust injured already, I also wouldn't want to trade Ryder. I can't see us getting more than a 2nd for him and we'd still need a move to replace him - which would cost assets as well.

I wouldn't move Leblanc unless it was for someone like Jagr. He'd not only give us additional size and skill for the playoffs, but he already has existing chemistry with pleks and he could also help to further develop Eller and Gally squared.

I continue to be surprised at the emergence of this club. Wildcard is still, IMO, a generous term for the team...I think there has been a lot of smoke and mirrors that, in a short season, will have fans thinking this club is better then it is. Frankly, I can't believe people are talking about trading Leblanc for a bottom 6 grinder...that's beyond ridiculous and flies in the face of building an organization that needs to develop "waves" of young talent throughout it's levels.

I'm a little torn about my off-season, and early season, comments to trade guys for picks/prospects...obviously the club is doing well and I have no problem eating crow. But ya know what, I'd still rather see the Habs trade Ryder and Gionta for the best prospects they can because I still don't see this team being close to a contender...and playing for the playoffs is Leafs Hockey. I'd still like to see if then can get a couple 1st rounders and try to deal into the top 3 again. I maintain that this club is playing way over it's head. Outside of Subban, Markov, Pleks, MaxPac, Price, Galchenyuk, Emelin no one should be untouchable...though I like Prust, Gorges and would think they'd need to be blown away to consider dealing some other young guys on the big club...I'm referring primarily to Diaz, Gallagher and Eller.

If you were really stuck on "going for it" then I'd want Iginla as a rental.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's a good question - is this season smoke and mirrors?

In 2008 we had a 'smoke and mirrors' season, and the main reason for it was arguably that Kovalev decided to show up and be a dominant player from pole to pole. It helped that young players like the Kostitsyn Bros., Higgins and Komisarek still seemed to be on the way up, not yet exposed. It also helped that Mark Streit was around to second Markov.

For this season to be smoke and mirrors, wouldn't it need to be the case that certain players are, like Kovaelv was, playing way over their heads in a fashion unlikely to be duplicated? But if that's right, then who is doing that on this edition of the Habs? Maybe Gallagher (although an optimist would note that he is merely doing in the NHL exactly the same thing that he's done at every other level). Is Subban's emergence as a Norris contender really a surprise or an aberration? Is he 'playing over his head?' Is Price? MaxPac? Prust?

Or, does 'smoke and mirrors' just mean that this team is riding a wave of enthusiasm and getting artifically inflated results in consequence? But for this to be so, some players would still need to be shown to be playing over their heads, no? When you consider that these guys have still been rattling off wins without Prust, Bourque and Diaz - all key contributors early - you have cause to wonder whether this team's ceiling is a lot higher than we all first thought. The only real X-factor seems to me to be Markov's knee.

I'm not being contentious here, just trying to work it out. I agree we're a wild card. But I'm not convinced this is another 2008, or 2002 for that matter (the Theodore miracle year).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think it's fair to call 2008 smoke and mirrors.

In 2009, the team dealt with some of the most derailing stupidity I've ever seen. Players went uncontrollable with partying and it was just one injury after another. With all of the injuries, the team was 12th in goals per game in the league but slipped defensively. I recall at some point it felt like the entire team except Lapierre and Latendresse were sleeping and playing through the motions.

Was it smoke and mirrors the leader in the East? Oh for sure. But we were a good playoff team in 2008 and should have been better in 2009 (but were not).

I don't know if we're a wildcard anymore. I honestly think next season, this team will stay top four in the East. Then again, I think Anaheim Ducks fans are saying the same. Montreal and Anaheim have scary similar records and we were both bottom five teams last season. Maybe it's our magical Disney runs?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have wanted Clowe on this team for a long time. If we have a chance to get him and don't....I will be dissappointed. With him and Prust on our team I am loving it! Just the right amount of toughness, without having to commit a spot to a 6 mpg enforcer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My guess is that there are two reasons for the disbelief:

1) Generally: Habs fans have gotten cynical after a couple of decades of crap compaired to the pre-salary cap good 'ol days.

2) Specifically: This team has vastly underpreformed for two seasons due to an unholy run of injuries and the frustration that resulted (not to mention the rapid decline of the $7M man).

There are no smoke and mirrors - this season is for real. In Price, Subban, Markov, Pleks, Ryder and Patches we have very high end players at each position. And many younger players are coming along nicely - Eller in particular, plus Gallagher and Galchenyuk, who is a future star player. Add a healthy capitain and the fact that Bourque is a legit top six forward, and you have a very deep team.

This is reflected not only in the standings, but in the shot totals and fancy stats (corsi, fenwick, fenwick close, etc). And we have dominated our opponents in many of the games we have lost (see: Buffalo this past week).

Anyone who thinks that being bruisers is a key to winning the Stanley Cup hasn't watched the Stanley Cup finals very often. No, you can't be push overs. But this team is not push overs. They are winners and will be for several years to come.

All that being said, I have no problem with the idea of adding grit for the play offs. But that gritty 4th line forward or 6th dman will have to bump one of the other not-so-productive players, like Armstrong, Moen or Boullion.

What I am hoping, rather, is that Tinordi proves this week that he deserves to stay, and that come the playoffs he has gotten comfortable enough to give us a one-two punch on the point - Emelin and Tinordi are tough customers. I would much rather see Tinordi-Diaz as the 3rd pairing than have Boullion out there making stupid plays like this:

and this: http://video.canadiens.nhl.com/videocenter/console?hlg=20122013,2,444&lang=en - see Tavares' goal in the 1st.

Where was the cube going on that???

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Toughness is just something personally that I like to have on the team. Win or lose, I don't like my team to get muscled or bullied. I do not think adding Clowe would make us worse.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Frankly, I can't believe people are talking about trading Leblanc for a bottom 6 grinder...

You think he has the skills for the top-6? I thought he was drafted for third line duty. If we can use him to get something better, I'm all for it. If the damn Sens weren't in the hunt which they shouldn't be with all the bobo's they're carrying, I'd try to use Leblanc as bait to see if Ottawa is willing to move Neil.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You think he has the skills for the top-6? I thought he was drafted for third line duty. If we can use him to get something better, I'm all for it. If the damn Sens weren't in the hunt which they shouldn't be with all the bobo's they're carrying, I'd try to use Leblanc as bait to see if Ottawa is willing to move Neil.

Although I have said that I am not in favor of trading prospects I'd send Leblanc for Neil in a heart beat.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You think he has the skills for the top-6? I thought he was drafted for third line duty. If we can use him to get something better, I'm all for it. If the damn Sens weren't in the hunt which they shouldn't be with all the bobo's they're carrying, I'd try to use Leblanc as bait to see if Ottawa is willing to move Neil.

No way this happens. Chris Neil will retire a Senator. I don't think this season is an aberration, this is the beginning of a very well-built franchise. The past years underperformance, imo, were due to Markov being injured, Gomez, and youth in key situations. Now that Price, Subban, Pacioretty, Desh, Emelin, Diaz, and Eller are all getting older, and growing with the team, this is the result.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What would you suggest? He's a good 4th liner.

He's an okay 4 minute per game 4th liner that can fight. He also puts the team shorthanded an awful lot with boneheaded penalties and often crosses the line; he has legitimately earned the reputation of a cheapshot artist. He played some junior hockey in Barrie (I'm near that area) so I'm a bit more familiar with him than most 4th line goons, I wouldn't want him anywhere near this team. The bad more than outweighs the good with him which is sad because he legitimately has some skill.

If you want a fighter, I'm pretty sure the Ducks would part with Staubitz who you noted earlier you liked. He's hurt at the moment I think but has been a healthy scratch for them as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the team could be 23 Prusts or 23 Orrs or 23 Neils and people would still "question the toughness". Even Habs fans (which I'll assume the thread starter is) have bought into the "diving/embellishing/whining Habs" stereotype. Is Montreal the grittiest team out there to play against? No, but they're far from creampuff status.

  • Upvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the team could be 23 Prusts or 23 Orrs or 23 Neils and people would still "question the toughness". Even Habs fans (which I'll assume the thread starter is) have bought into the "diving/embellishing/whining Habs" stereotype. Is Montreal the grittiest team out there to play against? No, but they're far from creampuff status.

You make a good point. It is traditional for the Montreal Canadiens to confront bigger,badder opponents. Think of the Bruins and Flyers in the 1970s. The only time this was not true was in the Burns years when we had as tough as team as any. It's part of the Habs' historical identity that we ice teams defined mainly by speed, skill, team play and goaltending; but the winning models have always had enough toughness and grit to grind out wins against teams that were expected to run them out of the rink. In this sense, the current edition may prove to be right in line with the Habs' historic identity.

That said, if we could add a Chris Neil, Shane O'Brien or other 'play-and-drop 'em' guy at the deadline, it certainly would not be a bad thing, especially with Bourque and Prust still out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You make a good point. It is traditional for the Montreal Canadiens to confront bigger,badder opponents. Think of the Bruins and Flyers in the 1970s. The only time this was not true was in the Burns years when we had as tough as team as any. It's part of the Habs' historical identity that we ice teams defined mainly by speed, skill, team play and goaltending; but the winning models have always had enough toughness and grit to grind out wins against teams that were expected to run them out of the rink. In this sense, the current edition may prove to be right in line with the Habs' historic identity.

That said, if we could add a Chris Neil, Shane O'Brien or other 'play-and-drop 'em' guy at the deadline, it certainly would not be a bad thing, especially with Bourque and Prust still out.

Chris Neil is such a pipe dream it isn't funny. He is Mr Ottawa, and only Buffalo (Gaustad) is dumb enough to trade a "team identity guy" like that. We are better off offering Weber and Kaberle for Sidney Crosby. Shane O'Brien isn't out of the question though. He was a healthy scratch earlier this year, I bet we could trade Louis Leblanc and a 2nd to get him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The team is tougher than years in the past but i wouldn't say they are tough.

Last year they were like powder puff girls.

This year they may be light weights.

Next year i suspect MB will get hem bigger and tougher to probably a light heavy weight team with Prust and a true heavy weight.

For this reason, i was really surprised by the DD signing. I just don't see how your going to win in the playoffs with Pleks and DD as your top 2 centers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I really like the concept of team toughness. I agree with the Habs philosophy of not wanting to add a goon. All our team is playing tough, and I like it.

However, it's just plain wrong to think our team is strong enough for the Bruins. Look what they did to Patches. The Gallys are gonna get killed. Prust already allows Gallagher and others to play tough. I think adding another Prust would double the impact and the team ability to play tough.

Galchenyuk has been cut with the head down a couple times this season. He is vulnerable to the big hit. We have to make sure the opponent doesn't take the liberty to hurt our kids. That's why I'd recommend having our own wrecking ball.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I really like the concept of team toughness. I agree with the Habs philosophy of not wanting to add a goon. All our team is playing tough, and I like it.

However, it's just plain wrong to think our team is strong enough for the Bruins. Look what they did to Patches. The Gallys are gonna get killed. Prust already allows Gallagher and others to play tough. I think adding another Prust would double the impact and the team ability to play tough.

Galchenyuk has been cut with the head down a couple times this season. He is vulnerable to the big hit. We have to make sure the opponent doesn't take the liberty to hurt our kids. That's why I'd recommend having our own wrecking ball.

I like tough hockey as much as anyone on this board, but we aren't going to out muscle the Bruins. The idea of being team tough is to make your team tougher to play against, win the battles in the corners, clear the crease, and finish your checks. The Bruins are basically a bunch of thugs and cheapshot artists who need these tactics to throw teams off their game. We just need to play a strong "road hockey" to take advantage of them, and cash in on our powerplays.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Leblanc took a bad injury and has a coach who seems to be burying him. There's more details than what you read on the surface.

The attitude you have about him is why Montreal has such a reputation of eating their young. Leblanc is a 2009 draft pick. Quite young still. Next year at 100% he could be exactly what our team needs. Right handed winger with good IQ.

You didn't know he was a winger and you seem to want him traded just because he hasn't played this season. Me starting to think you just didn't like the draft pick.

Sure, think whatever you want. Leblanc is our next Kyle Chipchura.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

We need some toughness tomorrow we are gonna get **** on, bruins play goon hockey. if we go with the same lineup as we did tonight, our chance of winning drop then if we had White and Prust. We need energy players not Helpern he is not a physical presence.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We need some toughness tomorrow we are gonna get **** on, bruins play goon hockey. if we go with the same lineup as we did tonight, our chance of winning drop then if we had White and Prust. We need energy players not Helpern he is not a physical presence.

We lost tonight because we couldn't score goals, not because we were too weak.

It wasn't even about how big or tough the Penguins were because Brendan Gallagher sure found his way into the slot just about every time he tried.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Very true, just those games like Toronto & Boston we are gonna need some physical presence

We lost tonight because we couldn't score goals, not because we were too weak.

It wasn't even about how big or tough the Penguins were because Brendan Gallagher sure found his way into the slot just about every time he tried

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One day the Habs will be waltzing down Ste Catherines with the Cup lofted high and pundits around hockey nation will decry the Canadiens as too small and soft.

We could have 23 guys who are 6'6, 230 and who are all in the top 30 in hits and fights in the NHL and we would still be called small and soft.

People don't like change. They want to keep believing the same things forever because it's easier. Remember, we're the flying Frenchmen. I believe the posters on this particular board are more intelligent than the average water cooler gathering (read: HFBoards). Are we smaller than other teams, sure. But small doesn't have to be a physical measure. How many of you really and truly believe Gallagher is "small?" Have we actually lost a game this season because we were run into the boards? I suppose there were a couple of games where you could argue we were battered to a loss, but in my humble opinion, I don't think it's really an issue - not like it was in the not too far distant past. You have to remember, there are big players in the NHL who play very, very small. I don't think we're a "small" team at all. And with a healthy Prust and Bourque, I think we can keep up with just about anyone.

Now, that's not to say an upgrade on one of the so-called "small" players for someone of equal or more talent and more size would be good. I don't think anyone would argue with putting in a Getzlaf over a Desharnais (and that's just a stretched example to make a point, I know it won't happen). Those kinds of moves, however, take time.

With regards to Patches and him playing "small," I disagree. He's playing no differently. After he rammed someone in the boards (was it pre-season last?), he stopped being a real physical presence. I still see him going to the slot every game looking for the loose pucks that he regularly buries. I'm not going to say he's 'snake-bit' because I don't like that term, I think he's going through a confidence lull. Remember a few games back he had a couple of chances to bury it? I'm guessing that made him think; think back to the beginning of the season when he struggled. It never fully got out of his head, and now it's back. And players should never, ever think. Not like that, anyhow. But I digress...

See, the problem with this whole "small" talk is that, if you remove half those players from the lineup, Montreal loses far more skill than any comparable other team. More than that, we lose heart. I'd rather have a team that plays with heart because that'll overcome size nine times out of ten. Example? Flyers defence. "Nuff said. Which brings me to the guy who's getting the most schtick - Desharnais. Now, hold your breath here, because I'm going to drop a little can of "What?" and it's going to be ugly until you take a moment to consider it. Desharnais is Ribeiro. Without the attitude. He's a couple inches shorter, but he has the same hands, the same vision. This time, though, we have a guy who's a team fellow and who wants to win as part of a team. Ribeiro was soft, floated a lot, but managed to get reasonable points when he was younger. Hello, welcome to Desharnais. Longer he plays, more points he'll get as he learns his trade. (Also, Ribeiro has been paired with guys like, oh, I dunno, Ovechkin, so that'll also help the point totals.)

Would you rather have Ribeiro or Desharnais? Learn to take a face-off, David, and it becomes a complete conquering, rather than just a no-brainer.

Back when this team was small, we had guys like Petrov and Lind and Witehall... I know, I'm bringing up bad, supressed memories. Now, this team is "small" and we have Gallagher, Gionta, Desharnais... None of them play small. And hey, look at our record.

Just one fan's opinion.

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...