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Offseason changes Required


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I keep asking for people's opinion about Keith Ballard. Hardly a grade-A option, but he seems to me to have been chronically underused and under-valued in Vancouver. Maybe he could be signed affordably as a stop-gap option after his inevitable buy-out. Shane O'Brien might also be a buyout candidate given the mess in Colorado. I know people want heavy duty names capable of logging 20 minutes per night, but these sorts of guys might be more realistic options in terms of a short-term patchup job. Thoughts?

If you're looking for an Emelin replacement, Ballard isn't that guy. If Diaz was out, he'd make sense but not here. O'Brien, to me, is one of the most overhyped d-men out there. Even if he was bought out, I wouldn't want him although he at least is a physical player.

Admittedly, you're not going to get a 'Grade-A' option as a short-term stopgap for Emelin so if that's the route to go, I'd toss out Mark Fistric's name as an option. He hits a lot and blocks shots. That's about it but given the status of the D, those are two very important elements.

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I agree with everything, other then Gorges being part if the gauranteed long term core. If the anything goes officiating continues, we need a more Tinordi and Emelin type of dmen and gorges us expandable.

Next year we also need a steady, tough, net clearing, hard hitting dman.

Emelin, Subban, Markov and Tinordi (if he doesnt take a step back like 2nd year players generally do) are a good core. If bealieau is ready to take the next step great, or if we get pre-injury Diaz, that us a bonus. But we need another heavy hitter on the blue line, particularly since Emelin will miss a couple of months.

You may not want him as part of the core, but he is an asset under contract for 5 more seasons.

It that sense, barring a trade, you know he's going to be here in 2 seasons. That can't be said for Markov, Emelin, Diaz or Bouillon, which is ultimately the point I was trying to make.

4 assets on D are controllable long-term. 2 of them are prospects that may not hit potential. Another proven commodity long-term wouldn't go amiss.

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You may not want him as part of the core, but he is an asset under contract for 5 more seasons.

It that sense, barring a trade, you know he's going to be here in 2 seasons. That can't be said for Markov, Emelin, Diaz or Bouillon, which is ultimately the point I was trying to make.

4 assets on D are controllable long-term. 2 of them are prospects that may not hit potential. Another proven commodity long-term wouldn't go amiss.

I think from our long-term deals that we would want to move, Gorges is probably the most movable (Price, MaxPac are guy's who I wouldn't want to move unless it was for an offer you can't refuse), I think despite being signed for 5 years, Gorges is a movable contract this year. If he has another bad or below average year, moving him would become difficult.

It looks like the league is going back to the clutch-grab, everything goes style, which makes him less effective.

I know he is popular here, but the other long-term contract I'd want to move is Moen. he just isn't physical enough for a guy his size. I think Edmonton is a team that would be looking for guys like both Moen and Gorges.

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I agree that our defence corps looks good in 2-3 years. The problem is getting from here to there, and this problem has to be taken seriously, because this team is too good right now to sacrifice to future hopes just because we can't be bothered to address obvious short-term weaknesses.

I agree with everything, other then Gorges being part if the gauranteed long term core. If the anything goes officiating continues, we need a more Tinordi and Emelin type of dmen and gorges us expandable.

I am totally with you two on this. We can't be missing a top four dman for 2-3 months next year with the window wide open on this team's cup aspirations. Plus Gorges performance this year has to have MB at least mildly concerned about his longevity and tradability.

If Gorges and Markov were to both drop off sooner rather than later, the Habs may have a serious situation on defence, during a period of time when their offense is peaking in terms or production and affordability. There are no guarantees that Tinordi and Beaulieu can both become top four D. Also, I really think that most armchair GMs are underestimating the importance of Markov for the Habs offense. The best years to make a cup run are the next couple, while Markov is still an offensive force on the PP. It is next to impossible to replace an elite PP talent like his.

All this to say that it wouldn't surprise me at all to see MB make a bold trade this off-season for a top four dman in his prime. I guess he is realizing that the best years for these Habs are the next couple, while vets like Markov, Gio and Pleks are still producing at an elite level (the anti-Gio sentiment in these threads is absolutely ridiculous - the guy just scored 14 goals in a 48 game season = on pace for 25+ = he's still got lots to give) and kids like the Gallies are still cheap.

I am thinking that a top end dmen is the target, not elite - no Karlsson, Weber or Keith coming our way, but someone top end, in their prime. Here's my wish list for big, two-way talent dmen who have established themselves as very good, might get even better dmen:

Cody Frason, Alex Edler, John Carlson, Jack Johnson, or Victor Hedman.

We're going to pay to get one of those boys. Gorges goes the other way, and maybe DD, and either our first round pick and a second, or we're going to have to throw the likes of Gallagher into the deal. If Gallagher was involved, I'd want Hedman coming back.

Before everyone freaks out, remember you have to pay to play, and just imagine this defense:

Hedman-Subban

Markov-Emelin

Tinordi-Diaz

Cube, Beaulieu

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Throwing Gallagher in deals now?

Hilarious.

You got that right. Here's another one. This board would let Ryder walk with out batting an eye, a 35 goal scorer, and continued to pour in excuses to justify keeping Gomez around, a 1 goal scorer, not to mention a 7m/3.5 cap hit variance.
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Fistric played less than 15 minutes per game for an Oilers team that lacked defence and toughness. I don't know that he is the answer.

I don't think he's a great option either but if we're looking at lower-end players who play a similar style, Fistric probably should be in the conversation. He's a 3rd pairing player with his holes for sure but his strengths line up somewhat well with Emelin.

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Edler is an interesting option, but you're gonna be giving back picks and prospects. More likely, Gillis holds out for MaxPac; failing that he will want Bourque + picks and/or prospects. Also, he hardly addresses the need for toughness on the back end. But patience makes a very interesting point about the benefits of acquiring a top-4 defender.

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Edler is an interesting option, but you're gonna be giving back picks and prospects. More likely, Gillis holds out for MaxPac; failing that he will want Bourque + picks and/or prospects. Also, he hardly addresses the need for toughness on the back end. But patience makes a very interesting point about the benefits of acquiring a top-4 defender.

Edler has developed into a much tougher player compared to the softy he was at the start of his career . He's quite comparable to Roman Hamrlik now. However I think what people are looking for is a nasty crease clearer with size. On the open market is going to be Douglas Murray and Brooks Oprik out of Pittsburgh. Either guy would be great for the team.

Also the reason I'm fine with Ryder leaving is because I don't want to pay him what he'll likely cost on the market for the term. He's expected to want a long term deal. I'd rather let a younger player develop with that time. Especially a guy like Gallagher.

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Edler has developed into a much tougher player compared to the softy he was at the start of his career . He's quite comparable to Roman Hamrlik now. However I think what people are looking for is a nasty crease clearer with size. On the open market is going to be Douglas Murray and Brooks Oprik out of Pittsburgh. Either guy would be great for the team.

Also the reason I'm fine with Ryder leaving is because I don't want to pay him what he'll likely cost on the market for the term. He's expected to want a long term deal. I'd rather let a younger player develop with that time. Especially a guy like Gallagher.

EXACTLY.

Sign a Murray or Orpik or make a small trade for a guy like Franson. Unless the rate is reasonable, let Ryder walk and let Gally and Kristo develop...

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Throwing Gallagher in deals now?

Hilarious.

Happy to amuse you :)

But I am serious. We all love Gallagher, and he is coming off a Calder nomination season and a good showing in his first (brief) playoff outing. So his value is high. But really, he is 5 or 6th on the Habs forward depth chart (behind Patches, Pleks, Galch, Eller, and still behind Gio imo). Talking trades is tough when we are attached to the players involved, but you have to give up quality to get quality.

If MB decides we need a top four dman now for the reasons I propose above, as I hope, then we are going to give something up to get a player in his prime. For me, the only untouchables at forward are Patches, Eller and Galch. And we have the forward depth to give up Gallagher. Obviously I would rather sacrifice a first and a second plus Gorges, but that won't be enough for a serious dman in his prime.

The biggest problem with my proposed deal for Hedman is not that Yzerman won't be willing to consider, but that he probably doesn't want another St. Louis in the lineup, unless he thinks Gally would benefit from the example.

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Brooks Orpik is not a UFA. He is signed for next season at a 3.75 million cap hit.

I'd absolutely love to get him, but doubt the Pens give him up, he's their best defensive D.

Orpik would be a great target, but what does Pitts need that we have to offer? They would want Patches.

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Brooks Orpik is not a UFA. He is signed for next season at a 3.75 million cap hit.

I'd absolutely love to get him, but doubt the Pens give him up, he's their best defensive D.

Sorry.. my mistake. Murray is still a solid option. IF we go the trade route I preger Franson, would be cheaper.

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I think you have rated Galleghar way too low. Where would you rate St Louis on TB's forward depth chart??? IMO he is #2 in TB. Would you put him behind Stamkos and lecavalier?? Hell before stamkos, I'd have put St. Louis as their top forward even even Richards was there.

I think Gallegher is behind maxpac and Galchenyuk and possibly pleks for 1 more year. I also think he could potentially be or #2 forward. I think that by the end of this year, he definitely passed Gionta on the depth chart.

If Gally was between 6 feet and 6'2 where would you rank him?? I think you are letting his size cloud your judgement. He is the type of player you build a franchise around - regardless where he was drafted or his size. Using your rationale, Detroit should have traded away datsyuk.

Happy to amuse you :)

But I am serious. We all love Gallagher, and he is coming off a Calder nomination season and a good showing in his first (brief) playoff outing. So his value is high. But really, he is 5 or 6th on the Habs forward depth chart (behind Patches, Pleks, Galch, Eller, and still behind Gio imo). Talking trades is tough when we are attached to the players involved, but you have to give up quality to get quality.

If MB decides we need a top four dman now for the reasons I propose above, as I hope, then we are going to give something up to get a player in his prime. For me, the only untouchables at forward are Patches, Eller and Galch. And we have the forward depth to give up Gallagher. Obviously I would rather sacrifice a first and a second plus Gorges, but that won't be enough for a serious dman in his prime.

The biggest problem with my proposed deal for Hedman is not that Yzerman won't be willing to consider, but that he probably doesn't want another St. Louis in the lineup, unless he thinks Gally would benefit from the example.

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To me, you've gotta keep Gallagher, even if you think he's 6th on the depth chart.

He's 20 years old, and already had a season that would be 25+ goals over 82 games....

He's so young that he's one of the pieces you are building with (along with Galchenyuk, Patches, Eller)...

The other forwards might be better right now, but if you want to rebuild the right way, you can't give up the young winger.

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To me, you've gotta keep Gallagher, even if you think he's 6th on the depth chart.

He's 20 years old, and already had a season that would be 25+ goals over 82 games....

He's so young that he's one of the pieces you are building with (along with Galchenyuk, Patches, Eller)...

The other forwards might be better right now, but if you want to rebuild the right way, you can't give up the young winger.

Gallagher is awesome. An excellent young forward. His grit and skills outweigh his stature. But I think big skilled centres are harder to come by than goal scoring wingers. Eller and Galchenyuk are the key there. And Patches is our best forward for years to come. The thing about Gallagher is that his value is super-high because of his rookie year. But he is concussion prone and that might be a long-term issue. If you can get the likes of Hedman for a package that includes Gally, Gorges and picks, you have to do it, imho.

This addresses a need that can help make the Habs a true contender immediately, while Markov is still productive, without selling the farm. I can see why some might want to put Gallagher on an untouchables list, but I think that would be a mistake.

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He is the type of player you build a franchise around - regardless where he was drafted or his size. Using your rationale, Detroit should have traded away datsyuk.

I am sorry, but I do not think Gallagher is "the type of player you build a franchise around." Are you actually comparing the kid to Datsyuk? A decade long point per game player? There are only three players with franchise player potential on the Habs current roster:

PK Subban - I think he just proved he is the real deal.

Carey Price - skills there, consistency yet to come, but it will.

Alex Galchenyuk - only time will tell...

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I am sorry, but I do not think Gallagher is "the type of player you build a franchise around." Are you actually comparing the kid to Datsyuk? A decade long point per game player? There are only three players with franchise player potential on the Habs current roster:

PK Subban - I think he just proved he is the real deal.

Carey Price - skills there, consistency yet to come, but it will.

Alex Galchenyuk - only time will tell...

I'm comparing his draft position and size was to Datsyuk (datsyuk is bigger, but is still consider undersized). WHen he was the same age, no one could have imagined he would have become one of the best players in the NHL either.

If I was to rank the habs, i'd say Subban, Galchenyuk, and then a toss up between Price/MaxPac. Price has to show a little more mental toughness and consistency, before we'll know whether he has Brodeur potential, or if he'll be like Fleury. Having said that, he also has to have the D in front if him play better.

The guys I want to build around and don't move going forward are the following (unless somone totally offers an amazing deal):

-Subban

-Galchenyuk

-Galleghar

-MaxPac

-Price (one more year for him to show more consistency)

-Eller

-Tinordi

-Emelin

-Bealieau

IMO everyone else is movable - even Pleks (who I'd move before or after the 2014/2015 season). I'm a big fan of Pleks, but he becomes expandable if Galchenyuk is moved to centre and Eller builds on the last half of this season. Cap wise I don't know if we would be able to keep him when some if our young guys get raises.

This summer, the veterans I'd hang on to are Pleks, Markov, Prust and White. its not popular here, but I still say we should be trying to move Gorges, Gionta and Moen, i'd add DD to that, but don't think he is movable for a decent return with the way he finished his season. however, I do think he should be moved to the wing.

I think we should add a more physical and meaner upgrade to replace Gorges while Markov is still here and I really think that even a Markov on the downside of his career he is worth keeping around and is seriously undervalued by most.

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If we stand pat, we will fall behind. I would remind you that Detroit is in our division next year, that we stayed relatively healthy all year and 4 games separated 2nd from 8th. What I am hearing here, is that you want to tweak the lineup but not much more. To me that is a recipe for missing the playoffs.

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No one is saying that there doesn't need to be changes. Obviously there does.

How many changes you can make in one offseason with the cap coming down is one issue.

The second issue is a question... are you trying to win right now, or build a team. I think we are still building, and if thats the case, you don't throw out the 20 year old Calder Candidate. You gotta find another way, and perhaps it involves moving Gionta at the trade deadline next year, and continuing to build with youth for now.

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No one is saying that there doesn't need to be changes. Obviously there does.

How many changes you can make in one offseason with the cap coming down is one issue.

The second issue is a question... are you trying to win right now, or build a team. I think we are still building, and if thats the case, you don't throw out the 20 year old Calder Candidate. You gotta find another way, and perhaps it involves moving Gionta at the trade deadline next year, and continuing to build with youth for now.

Sure, but the argument I make above is that armchair GMs have come to underestimate the importance of Markov's offensive leadership. The window on his crucial participation in cup runs is limited. It happens to coincide with the next couple of years when a number of excellent young players (Galch, Gally, Tinordi, Beaulieu, not to mention Eller and Subban next season) have affordable contracts.

I say make a move now for a top four dman who is in his prime who can help lead the runs these next few years. We have some of the best offensive depth in the league right now. It's a fine balance between Pleks, Gio and Bourque still producing like top 6 forwards and the young guns remaining affordable.

The next two seasons are prime time.

The missing piece is a Hedman-like dman. It will cost a high end forward to get it done, but that's the way it works. That's not "throwing out" Gallagher, it's quality for quality. And it will take Gorges plus picks as well to get the likes of Hedman.

We have the forward depth to augment a blueline that is not ready for elite contention. I say do it.

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We're not moving Gallagher. Nor should we. The whole idea is a classic case of looking a gift horse in the mouth, just the type of over-theorizing that armchair GMs love to do. If ANY other team had Gallagher, we'd be demanding to know how come the Habs can't find gems like that in the late rounds and drooling enviously over their great young talent, not sagely declaiming that they should trade those guys for hypothetical upgrades. In Gallagher we have found Brian Gionta Redux...and possibly more than that. The concussion issue is the only reason at all for doubting his future.

"If we stand pat we fall behind..." I'm not sure that's true when you have a clutch of young players who may well get better. Indeed, I think there is at least some chance of Markov being better too, now that his knee has a year under its belt (so to speak). Also, as Commandant noted, other teams may be forced to shed talent to get under the cap. That said, there is no question that we need to add a physical, top-6 defensive defenceman. Bergevin cannot escape this requirement, no matter what excuses exist.

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We all love what Gallagher did this year. But it is the homers in us that leads us to covet him as untouchable as the 4th ranking young offensive player on the team (after Patches, Eller and Galchenyuk).

You sometimes have to give up a high end player to get what you need to become a contender.

While we have gotten lucky with the rapid development of the Gallies, it is much rarer to see defencemen accelerate their development so dramatically. That means Tinordi and Beaulieu will probably require 2 or more seasons to step up to genuine top-four roles. Those happen to be the two seasons when Markov, Gio, Pleks and Bourque will be at their best.

So you do a deal for a top end dman in their prime, and maximize the probability for cup runs sooner, and later.

Two last arguments

1) Top defencemen are generally more important to team success than top forwards (with the exception of game changing stars like Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos, etc). They play more shifts/minutes per game, and they play a bigger part in driving puck possession. If you can turn one young scorer + a solid defensive dman + picks into a top end dman in his prime, this team at this juncture has to consider it.

2) Gallagher is small. He plays big, but it really would not hurt to turn him and Gorges into a big dman with skills, leaving room for the likes of Gio, DD and Hudon on the roster.

ALL of this is probably moot. If you think we have a strong reaction to the idea of losing Gallagher, can you imagine what TB fans and management would say to the idea of trading away Hedman??? And I guess that is my point really. We would be lucky to get him for Gallagher +++. Yzerman would probably stand firm on getting one of Patches or Galchenyuk fpr Hedman, if he would even consider it at all...

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