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HabsTrick450

State of the team

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You gotta love how after a mediocre season(if that's the right choice of words), everyone turns on DD. 178 games played with 111 points, that's damn solid if you ask me.

DD didn't pass the eye test for me at all this season. i don't have to look at stats to tell me that. And Derek Roy is a better all around player then DD. If all our players,prospects and drafts are so good,why are we basically mediocre for the last 20 yrs

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DD didn't pass the eye test for me at all this season. i don't have to look at stats to tell me that. And Derek Roy is a better all around player then DD. If all our players,prospects and drafts are so good,why are we basically mediocre for the last 20 yrs

We never tanked/we traded away the Captains/no big trades/not a free agent destination/only franchise to have a bizarre ethnocentric preoccupation with regards to coaches and players. (TOR and EDM to an extent).

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It's an interesting question for wider discussion, why this franchise has not been able to make the jump from good team to serious contender in the Gainey/Gauthier/Bergevin years. I don't think our failure to tank is a fully sufficient explanation.

If I had to posit a hypothesis, I'd say it comes back to terrible player development in the Gainey era. Maybe if our development program had been stronger, Rebuild 1.0 would not have floundered so spectacularly. Maybe Higgins, Latendresse and the Kostitsyns would have evolved into bona-fide top-6 forwards, for instance; maybe Price would have had a smoother arc. Throwing away a legitimate second-line C in Ribeiro, and then another one in Grabs, on a team that had an absolutely dire need for C, also didn't help.

I always suspected that Rebuild 2.0 - the UFA frenzy of '09 - was intended as a stop-gap that would keep us competitive until we replenished the system. If it contended, that was a bonus.

So what really happened was the failure of Rebuild 1.0. We've been riding a transitional structure ever since. The lesson here may be that, no matter how well you draft, don't neglect player development, or you're looking at a decade of being "merely good."

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It's an interesting question for wider discussion, why this franchise has not been able to make the jump from good team to serious contender in the Gainey/Gauthier/Bergevin years. I don't think our failure to tank is a fully sufficient explanation.

If I had to posit a hypothesis, I'd say it comes back to terrible player development in the Gainey era. Maybe if our development program had been stronger, Rebuild 1.0 would not have floundered so spectacularly. Maybe Higgins, Latendresse and the Kostitsyns would have evolved into bona-fide top-6 forwards, for instance; maybe Price would have had a smoother arc. Throwing away a legitimate second-line C in Ribeiro, and then another one in Grabs, on a team that had an absolutely dire need for C, also didn't help.

I always suspected that Rebuild 2.0 - the UFA frenzy of '09 - was intended as a stop-gap that would keep us competitive until we replenished the system. If it contended, that was a bonus.

So what really happened was the failure of Rebuild 1.0. We've been riding a transitional structure ever since. The lesson here may be that, no matter how well you draft, don't neglect player development, or you're looking at a decade of being "merely good."

Just think of the number of Habs-drafted players and that were let go/didn't pan out for various reasons in the Gainey-Gauthier: Higgins, McDonagh, Perezhogin, the Kostitsyns, O'Byrne, Locke, Chipchura, Grabovski, D'Agostini, Latendresse, Carle, Maxwell, Fischer, Valentenko. What a list.

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Just think of the number of Habs-drafted players and that were let go/didn't pan out for various reasons in the Gainey-Gauthier: Higgins, McDonagh, Perezhogin, the Kostitsyns, O'Byrne, Locke, Chipchura, Grabovski, D'Agostini, Latendresse, Carle, Maxwell, Fischer, Valentenko. What a list.

Still better than the Houle era. Top 10 players drafted in the Houle era:

1. Andrei Markov

2. Mike Riberio

3. Michael Ryder

4. Francois Beauchemin

5. Ron Hainsey

6. Arron Asham

7. Mathieu Garon

8. Brett Clark

9. Marcel Hossa

10. Jason Ward

See how the list drops off? That's because the only other players that played any games in the NHL were Matt Carkner, Eric Chouinard, Gordie Dwyer, Ben Guite, Jozef Balej, Andre Bashkirov and Matt Higgins. Every other player busted. Most of the success came from a lucky 1998 NHL Entry Draft where Montreal landed Ribeiro (2nd), Beauchemin (3rd), Markov (6th) and Ryder (8th).

Prior to that was Serge Savard, who between 1983 and 1995 had only four technically successful first round picks: Saku Koivu, Andrew Cassels, Shayne Corson and Petr Svoboda. While the team did draft Claude Lemieux, Patrick Roy, Stephane Richer, Brent Gilchrist, Jyrki Lumme, John Leclair, Eric Desjardins, Mathieu Schneider, Craig Conroy, Brian Savage, Valeri Bure, Craig Rivet, Tomas Vokoun, Jose Theodore and others, Serge Savard and his crack team of scouts at the time were complete failures with the first round pick. Now, drafting wasn't a science then but picking the Thunderbirds three (Vallis, Stevenson, Bilodeau) was incredibly bizarre. At least they knew how to pick them in the second round.

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Just think of the number of Habs-drafted players and that were let go/didn't pan out for various reasons in the Gainey-Gauthier: Higgins, McDonagh, Perezhogin, the Kostitsyns, O'Byrne, Locke, Chipchura, Grabovski, D'Agostini, Latendresse, Carle, Maxwell, Fischer, Valentenko. What a list.

When someone can tell me how always pissing and moaning about the past is going to help us , then let's piss and moan. First of all habs trick 450 there are guys on your list who were run cause they needed to be run out eg: the Kosty boys, where are they now? locke was never going to make and he hasn't. Perezhogin took his ouck and went home. latendresse has accomplished very little. O'byrne? valentenko? Fischer? come on. The draft is a crap shoot and every team has a list like ours. We, it can be argued , made these players better so they at least had a shot at the NHL. Just my different point of view.

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When someone can tell me how always pissing and moaning about the past is going to help us , then let's piss and moan. First of all habs trick 450 there are guys on your list who were run cause they needed to be run out eg: the Kosty boys, where are they now? locke was never going to make and he hasn't. Perezhogin took his ouck and went home. latendresse has accomplished very little. O'byrne? valentenko? Fischer? come on. The draft is a crap shoot and every team has a list like ours. We, it can be argued , made these players better so they at least had a shot at the NHL. Just my different point of view.

I'm not moaning about the past, I am very optimistic about the future of the team. However, Chicoutimi Cucumber asked why we are not an elite team yet and I offered my opinion, which is that the way some of the players I listed impacted the team (whether it be with their on-ice play or their off-ice attitude/behaviour), crippled the Habs' hopes to contend for the Cup during the late 2000s. Management is not fully to blame but some mistakes were made, namely rushing Latendresse to the NHL, trading McDonagh (who's now a legit top 4 defenseman in the NHL), not being more stern with players that had behaviour problems (such as the Kosty bros) and so on. I can't blame them for the draft picks they made, as they probably scouted well and drafted players they thought were the best available/suited the team's needs.However, I can't believe that Claude Giroux was drafted 2 spots after David Fischer or that Jeff Carter, Dustin Brown, Ryan Getzlaf, Brent Seabrook, Zach Parise, Ryan Kesler, Mike Richards & Corey Perry were all picked in the 1st round after the Habs selected Andrei Kostitsyn. Just so many what-if scenarios. Still, this team has a bright future and I will enjoy watching it unfold.

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#1 problem going into this year,is that we still have the same non-physical defense as last year. Not one single change. With Emelin out until at least November,and his physicalness after a huge question mark,the situation is even worse. And we also saw how markov disappeared down the stretch/playoffs,and he's a year older. Instead of wasting time and money for washed up forwards,how about a 1-2 year physical stop gap on defence. Murray and/or Fistric would be much more important to this team than the yearly Jagr negotiations.They're slow,but pair one with Diaz/Beaulieu.the other with PK and you have a very solid and improved core.

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Guest Stogey24

#1 problem going into this year,is that we still have the same non-physical defense as last year. Not one single change. With Emelin out until at least November,and his physicalness after a huge question mark,the situation is even worse. And we also saw how markov disappeared down the stretch/playoffs,and he's a year older. Instead of wasting time and money for washed up forwards,how about a 1-2 year physical stop gap on defence. Murray and/or Fistric would be much more important to this team than the yearly Jagr negotiations.They're slow,but pair one with Diaz/Beaulieu.the other with PK and you have a very solid and improved core.

How many times is this topic going to be posted

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How many times is this topic going to be posted

I haven't seen a post mentioning Fistric or Murray here. And I looked at every post on this thread. So what are you talking about ??? It will probably be posted until the D beefs up..Would you rather read about tired trade proposals of 3 garbage players for one elite player.

Edited by jcc10
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I think JCC 10 is simply stating what alot of us feel, and that is that the status quo is not going to cut it. MB as much as said that they would be stayng away for the most part from high end free agency signings. This would mean at least for me, that if the Canadiens want to compete with the rest of the kids on the block, that a trade is in order. i think we are very fortune, that MB is in fact the one making the deals, and anything we say will not accelerate or infleunce that process in any way. Relax- something will get done.

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Still better than the Houle era. Top 10 players drafted in the Houle era:

1. Andrei Markov

2. Mike Riberio

3. Michael Ryder

4. Francois Beauchemin

5. Ron Hainsey

6. Arron Asham

7. Mathieu Garon

8. Brett Clark

9. Marcel Hossa

10. Jason Ward

See how the list drops off? That's because the only other players that played any games in the NHL were Matt Carkner, Eric Chouinard, Gordie Dwyer, Ben Guite, Jozef Balej, Andre Bashkirov and Matt Higgins. Every other player busted. Most of the success came from a lucky 1998 NHL Entry Draft where Montreal landed Ribeiro (2nd), Beauchemin (3rd), Markov (6th) and Ryder (8th).

Prior to that was Serge Savard, who between 1983 and 1995 had only four technically successful first round picks: Saku Koivu, Andrew Cassels, Shayne Corson and Petr Svoboda. While the team did draft Claude Lemieux, Patrick Roy, Stephane Richer, Brent Gilchrist, Jyrki Lumme, John Leclair, Eric Desjardins, Mathieu Schneider, Craig Conroy, Brian Savage, Valeri Bure, Craig Rivet, Tomas Vokoun, Jose Theodore and others, Serge Savard and his crack team of scouts at the time were complete failures with the first round pick. Now, drafting wasn't a science then but picking the Thunderbirds three (Vallis, Stevenson, Bilodeau) was incredibly bizarre. At least they knew how to pick them in the second round.

Savard had a lot of first-round busts, but overall his scouting was highly successful - the proof being that his team was a contender practically every year of his tenure. Fans at the time failed to appreciate his work because they'd been spoiled by all the dynasties and hungered for an offensive superstar, but the fact is that Savard pioneered what became the New Jersey Devils model of team-building. I'd give my eye-teeth to have the Habs be as strong now as they were then.

And anyone who classifies Gainey in the same league as Houle is out of their minds. Gainey was a solid if flawed GM who put this organization back on the footing to compete and be a good franchise in the NHL. Houle was an utterly unqualified buffoon.

As for the Gainey era itself, I'm not sure that obsessing over missed first-round opportunities is very useful, because you can probably do the same with most teams (e.g., almost every team passed on Giroulx in the first round, not just us). On balance, I don't think there was anything wrong with Gainey's drafting - in fact I seem to recall seeing data suggesting that his organization drafted a higher per centage of NHLers than almost any other. The real issue, I suspect, was how propsects were handled once in the system. I found it telling that, once he installed himself as coach in '09, he ended up firing ther entire Hamilton coaching staff, as though he were shocked to find the condition of the young players he was handling. In short, while Gainey's virtues were many, I don't think he had a clue about player development in the contemporary era. He seems to have assumed that it would just sort of look after itself, the way it did when he was coming up...rather than realizing that you need serious strategies for sheltering players from the bad habits and excesses that come with being 22 and the toast of the town in Montreal, for instance.

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Savard had a lot of first-round busts, but overall his scouting was highly successful - the proof being that his team was a contender practically every year of his tenure. Fans at the time failed to appreciate his work because they'd been spoiled by all the dynasties and hungered for an offensive superstar, but the fact is that Savard pioneered what became the New Jersey Devils model of team-building. I'd give my eye-teeth to have the Habs be as strong now as they were then.

And anyone who classifies Gainey in the same league as Houle is out of their minds. Gainey was a solid if flawed GM who put this organization back on the footing to compete and be a good franchise in the NHL. Houle was an utterly unqualified buffoon.

As for the Gainey era itself, I'm not sure that obsessing over missed first-round opportunities is very useful, because you can probably do the same with most teams (e.g., almost every team passed on Giroulx in the first round, not just us). On balance, I don't think there was anything wrong with Gainey's drafting - in fact I seem to recall seeing data suggesting that his organization drafted a higher per centage of NHLers than almost any other. The real issue, I suspect, was how propsects were handled once in the system. I found it telling that, once he installed himself as coach in '09, he ended up firing ther entire Hamilton coaching staff, as though he were shocked to find the condition of the young players he was handling. In short, while Gainey's virtues were many, I don't think he had a clue about player development in the contemporary era. He seems to have assumed that it would just sort of look after itself, the way it did when he was coming up...rather than realizing that you need serious strategies for sheltering players from the bad habits and excesses that come with being 22 and the toast of the town in Montreal, for instance.

Thanks you hit the nail on the head re; scouting/gm. and being a contender. timmins and co. have drafted many NHL players,but none that are really outstanding and we haven't been a contender,except 07-08,under his era.That 03 draft was an umitigated disaster that resonates today

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I'm not moaning about the past, I am very optimistic about the future of the team. However, Chicoutimi Cucumber asked why we are not an elite team yet and I offered my opinion, which is that the way some of the players I listed impacted the team (whether it be with their on-ice play or their off-ice attitude/behaviour), crippled the Habs' hopes to contend for the Cup during the late 2000s. Management is not fully to blame but some mistakes were made, namely rushing Latendresse to the NHL, trading McDonagh (who's now a legit top 4 defenseman in the NHL), not being more stern with players that had behaviour problems (such as the Kosty bros) and so on. I can't blame them for the draft picks they made, as they probably scouted well and drafted players they thought were the best available/suited the team's needs.However, I can't believe that Claude Giroux was drafted 2 spots after David Fischer or that Jeff Carter, Dustin Brown, Ryan Getzlaf, Brent Seabrook, Zach Parise, Ryan Kesler, Mike Richards & Corey Perry were all picked in the 1st round after the Habs selected Andrei Kostitsyn. Just so many what-if scenarios. Still, this team has a bright future and I will enjoy watching it unfold.

This is aimed at everyone on this board :

Can we just stop talking about picking A. Kostitsyn instead of :

Parise, Getzlaf, Burns, Kesler, Richards and Perry.

I can live with stating Jeff Carter, Hugh Jessiman or Dustin Brown, they are the 3 next picks of this draft, but ALL THE REST (especially Corey Perry, the 28th oa pick) were selected 7 to 18 ranks later.

Get over these names, no one were drafting them at #10 oa ! NO ONE.

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This is aimed at everyone on this board :

Can we just stop talking about picking A. Kostitsyn instead of :

Parise, Getzlaf, Burns, Kesler, Richards and Perry.

I can live with stating Jeff Carter, Hugh Jessiman or Dustin Brown, they are the 3 next picks of this draft, but ALL THE REST (especially Corey Perry, the 28th oa pick) were selected 7 to 18 ranks later.

Get over these names, no one were drafting them at #10 oa ! NO ONE.

That will only happen when people recognize that the 2009 Entry Draft wasn't very strong after the first 15 picks. Leblanc's 10 points in 42 games is pretty comparable to Jacob Josefson's 22 points in 91 games, Jordan Caron's 25 points in 88 games or Kyle Palmieri's 29 points in 70 games. Sure there was a Ryan O'Reilly in the second round but he was pretty far from the pick. Leblanc was marked as just outside of the Top 10 prospects and dropped to us. Now, has Marcus Johansson put up a lot of points? Sure, 95 in 183. On a team desperate for a center.

Even though I've stated that this year is crucial for Leblanc, the lack of patience on a prospect who took a bad injury is disappointing.

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