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Therrien and Holland: Setting up a Young Player for Failure


Commandant

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I'll never understand why a team calls up a young, offensive prospect, and then proceeds to play him with two guys who have 8 career goals combined (in nearly 200 NHL games). It doesn't make sense to me to call up a creative playmaker and then put him in a role he is unsuited for and has no chance to succeed. I had a bit of a rant on this last night.

http://lastwordonsports.com/2013/10/23/setting-a-young-player-up-for-failure/

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Holland seemed to be a smart well rounded player in junior, who did great when combined with 2 skilled offensive kids. But come on, it was his first NHL game and he is unlikely ready for primetime yet. He was simply the best fill in they have and the 5-6minutes he had was a lot less ice than I hoped for, but about exactly what I expected.

I doubt many call ups expect much more for 1st game.

Holland is a smart defensive player who is likely best shot blocking forward and I thought the 4th line looked good and was more energized than the other 3 lines.

Should White's line have been given twice as much icetime, would of been fine by me, but would of shocked me.

Would Holland have helped more by playing with Desharnais and Bourque? Possibly but vs a weak Oiler team it shouldn't of mattered and Holland was likely extremely happy just to be in the lineup.

I have a bigger issue with Tinordi playing 7-9minutes, when he could be playing 25 in Hamilton, but injuries being what they are I don't think coach is being overly conservative with youth.

But on a regular basis 6-7 minutes should be only for the goons of the league and young forwards should get at least 10minutes to have any chance to prove themselves (or show weaknesses).

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Er, I completely disagree. Not only was Holland used where he should have been used (see: early use of Gal(l)y's last season), but his ice time was *entirely* given to allow him to succeed. I don't know what your criteria are for Holland to succeed, but I thought he looked safe and smart out there every shift. I think Therrien introduced him to the NHL just about perfectly. This kid isn't an elite talent who's going to change the game, he's a solid kid who plays a solid game.

In my opinion, Therrien has used his kids just about *perfectly* since taking over as coach. He's guided them in slowly, hasn't broken their confidence, and has routinely placed them in situations designed for success. Should Beaulieu and Tinordi be getting 20 minutes of game time at this level? Didn't MT say Galchenyuk would be limited his first season? (And he was, 12 minutes a game.)

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I thought he was used well. I am sure he was told to focus on a simple, defensive game and not to worry about offence. He made a few nice plays, even getting PK time. Several times he was given a pat on the back by Therrien and White.

When he is used to the speed and defensively confident, then you can start giving him offensive roles.

Fortunately, real NHL coaches don't judge young players by goals in their first game.

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I like the way Calgary is using Monohon a let better then hoe MT has used our kids.

I said the same thing on Monday about putting Holland with slugs and DD with Moen. Either don't play DD or play him with guys that can finish.

I'd rather see bournival and Holland together than insulating them with no- skill 4th liners. Why do the habs have to try and turn everyone with skill into checkers.

Er, I completely disagree. Not only was Holland used where he should have been used (see: early use of Gal(l)y's last season), but his ice time was *entirely* given to allow him to succeed. I don't know what your criteria are for Holland to succeed, but I thought he looked safe and smart out there every shift. I think Therrien introduced him to the NHL just about perfectly. This kid isn't an elite talent who's going to change the game, he's a solid kid who plays a solid game.

In my opinion, Therrien has used his kids just about *perfectly* since taking over as coach. He's guided them in slowly, hasn't broken their confidence, and has routinely placed them in situations designed for success. Should Beaulieu and Tinordi be getting 20 minutes of game time at this level? Didn't MT say Galchenyuk would be limited his first season? (And he was, 12 minutes a game.)

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It's worth noting that Blunden and Holland spent some time together last year (I think a bit this year too). That little bit of familiarity probably came into play. Holland and Bournival also played together a lot last season though.

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Er, I completely disagree. Not only was Holland used where he should have been used (see: early use of Gal(l)y's last season), but his ice time was *entirely* given to allow him to succeed. I don't know what your criteria are for Holland to succeed, but I thought he looked safe and smart out there every shift. I think Therrien introduced him to the NHL just about perfectly. This kid isn't an elite talent who's going to change the game, he's a solid kid who plays a solid game.

In my opinion, Therrien has used his kids just about *perfectly* since taking over as coach. He's guided them in slowly, hasn't broken their confidence, and has routinely placed them in situations designed for success. Should Beaulieu and Tinordi be getting 20 minutes of game time at this level? Didn't MT say Galchenyuk would be limited his first season? (And he was, 12 minutes a game.)

Its not about minutes its about hiw they are used.

Galchenyuks minutes may have been limited but he played with Gallagher to start. Two offensive players whi can create with each other and finish each others passes.

There is a difference with putting Holland with a line whose job is to go out there.. be physical for 30 seconds and then get off without giving up a goal.

Its not about time on the ice. Its about role. Holland doesn't fit an energy line role

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Its not about minutes its about hiw they are used.

Galchenyuks minutes may have been limited but he played with Gallagher to start. Two offensive players whi can create with each other and finish each others passes.

There is a difference with putting Holland with a line whose job is to go out there.. be physical for 30 seconds and then get off without giving up a goal.

Its not about time on the ice. Its about role. Holland doesn't fit an energy line role

But where are you going to put him? On one of the top three lines where he's actually expected to produce and if he doesn't then he's actually not performed adequately? That's confidence killing. If he plays well enough for three or four games, then you give him a runout with bigger responsibility and see how he responds. But throwing him out there on a line that's supposed to produce rather than the fourth which is supposed to show energy and hustle, just setting him up for disaster, IMO.

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How do you expect someone to 'shine' in 3-4 games to get a promotion to a higher line when they're on a grinder line. It's been a bad stance for years, stop bringing up players unless they are in the role which suits them. I'm not going to rehash the same old debate that goes on and on, I just agree with Commandant in his assessment.

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How do you expect someone to 'shine' in 3-4 games to get a promotion to a higher line when they're on a grinder line. It's been a bad stance for years, stop bringing up players unless they are in the role which suits them. I'm not going to rehash the same old debate that goes on and on, I just agree with Commandant in his assessment.

Who's expecting Holland to shine ? I expect him to "not cost any game". That's it. He's a replacement. He's Shane Falco.

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How do you expect someone to 'shine' in 3-4 games to get a promotion to a higher line when they're on a grinder line. It's been a bad stance for years, stop bringing up players unless they are in the role which suits them. I'm not going to rehash the same old debate that goes on and on, I just agree with Commandant in his assessment.

Who expects Holland to "shine"? Hope for it for sure, but cant expect it at this point.

If he can keep his head above water, check at both ends, block some shots and don't turn pucks over, that would be sweet. That is all that is needed or hoped from Holland till #67 & #8 are back.

I would love for Holland to make a Gallagher-like impact as a rookie, but he likely needs another year in the weight room and AHL before he can even compete for pucks. It took Eller and Pacioretty several years to bulk up and Holland is still quite slight I think (even Bournival has 10-15lbs on him).

If he was a Lehkonen or Collberg, then yes I totally agree with Commandant that 4h line duty is a bit unwise, but a Bournival-Vail-Holland are all defensively responsible and will never have 40-50 goal season in NHL, so why not.

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Calgary is not insulating Monohon and is using him in all situations.

Calgary is using Monahan and Baerschi the same way we used Gallagher and Galchenyuk so...

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I remember Matt D'Agostini coming up so they immediately put him with Koivu. He scored a bunch of goals and then disappeared. When we traded him we got a prospect.

If Holland just sticks to fourth line duty I don't see him becoming anything of value. Place him with Bournival and Desharnais.

Calgary is not insulating Monohon and is using him in all situations.

Monahan and Baerschi are 8th and 10th for even strength minutes.

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Know what the problem here is? Holland isn't actually ready to be up. Management didn't call up Holland because he showed them it was his time. It was because an injury decimated lineup forced management's hand into calling up the "most nhl ready" player. I think we can agree that on the farm club not many are really performing the way we'd hope (Although I'm starting to wonder if Sylvian Lefebvre is at fault for half the underperformances).

Both the sides of what you guys are saying have a point to them, yes I'd like to see Holland playing with people who don't have hands of stone, but I'm also pretty damn happy Holland isn't in our top 9, because he simply isn't ready.

Work with what we got is all we can do. Hopefully there'll be some pleasant surprises, but I'm bracing for quite a painful November.

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Why not put him in a better position to produce offensively but let him know he is expected to show the same hustle and energy.

Hell, most if our veterans have been crap. Why keep playing them?? And if we are going to play DD, it is more important to play him with guys with some finish than a big guy like hands of stone Moen.

But where are you going to put him? On one of the top three lines where he's actually expected to produce and if he doesn't then he's actually not performed adequately? That's confidence killing. If he plays well enough for three or four games, then you give him a runout with bigger responsibility and see how he responds. But throwing him out there on a line that's supposed to produce rather than the fourth which is supposed to show energy and hustle, just setting him up for disaster, IMO.

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But where are you going to put him? On one of the top three lines where he's actually expected to produce and if he doesn't then he's actually not performed adequately? That's confidence killing. If he plays well enough for three or four games, then you give him a runout with bigger responsibility and see how he responds. But throwing him out there on a line that's supposed to produce rather than the fourth which is supposed to show energy and hustle, just setting him up for disaster, IMO.

Every player has slumps, if this is a confidence issue that kills his career, he was never going to make it in the NHL as at some point he would have a slump that would effect his confidence.. Players who make it have resiliant personalities.

As for setting him up for disaster by asking him to produce, i look at it as just the opposite. Every player has strengths and weaknesses, the best coach puts a player in a position where he can use his strengths and minimize his weaknesses. Asking him to be on an energy line does quite the opposite.

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Monohon us getting regular pp time - something Galy squared didn't last year.

I remember Matt D'Agostini coming up so they immediately put him with Koivu. He scored a bunch of goals and then disappeared. When we traded him we got a prospect.

If Holland just sticks to fourth line duty I don't see him becoming anything of value. Place him with Bournival and Desharnais.

Monahan and Baerschi are 8th and 10th for even strength minutes.

Based on his play, DD doesn't look like he belongs in the NHL either.

Know what the problem here is? Holland isn't actually ready to be up. Management didn't call up Holland because he showed them it was his time. It was because an injury decimated lineup forced management's hand into calling up the "most nhl ready" player. I think we can agree that on the farm club not many are really performing the way we'd hope (Although I'm starting to wonder if Sylvian Lefebvre is at fault for half the underperformances).

Both the sides of what you guys are saying have a point to them, yes I'd like to see Holland playing with people who don't have hands of stone, but I'm also pretty damn happy Holland isn't in our top 9, because he simply isn't ready.

Work with what we got is all we can do. Hopefully there'll be some pleasant surprises, but I'm bracing for quite a painful November.

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Know what the problem here is? Holland isn't actually ready to be up. Management didn't call up Holland because he showed them it was his time. It was because an injury decimated lineup forced management's hand into calling up the "most nhl ready" player. I think we can agree that on the farm club not many are really performing the way we'd hope (Although I'm starting to wonder if Sylvian Lefebvre is at fault for half the underperformances).

Both the sides of what you guys are saying have a point to them, yes I'd like to see Holland playing with people who don't have hands of stone, but I'm also pretty damn happy Holland isn't in our top 9, because he simply isn't ready.

Work with what we got is all we can do. Hopefully there'll be some pleasant surprises, but I'm bracing for quite a painful November.

I don't expect him to seize the opportunity and be a gallagher and never go back to the AHL. That isn't what this is about.

You have to use him, you have no choice, use him in a way that maximizes his strengths and minimizes his weaknesses. Putting a guy who is not physical, but is skilled, on the "energy line" is a waste.

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I don't expect him to seize the opportunity and be a gallagher and never go back to the AHL. That isn't what this is about.

You have to use him, you have no choice, use him in a way that maximizes his strengths and minimizes his weaknesses. Putting a guy who is not physical, but is skilled, on the "energy line" is a waste.

No I agree no one expects a Gallagher, and I agree you have to play a player to their strengths.

It's just neither option is desirable. I guess you could play him in the top nine an still limit his minutes fairly well.

But like I said, he isn't up because he's ready to be in the top 9, it's cause someone has to fill in.

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No I agree no one expects a Gallagher, and I agree you have to play a player to their strengths.

It's just neither option is desirable. I guess you could play him in the top nine an still limit his minutes fairly well.

But like I said, he isn't up because he's ready to be in the top 9, it's cause someone has to fill in.

Of course, and whats better to fill in on a line with DD and Bourque... a guy who might not be ready but has offensive skills, or a grinder who we know has a limited offensive game in Moen?

This is about the team too. You have two less effective lines by having Moen and Holland out of position IMO.

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Why do people expect him to stay in that role for his entire stint? He was given a safe role with instructions to not screw up. Mission accomplished.

He might still get some offensive linemates in coming games.

People are acting like he is a superstar being held back. He is a minor prospect at this point getting some game time due to a rash of injuries.

Given the success Therrien has had with our rookies who are our first line a year later, maybe we should give him a bit of credit that he knows what he is doing.

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