DON Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 Why do people expect him to stay in that role for his entire stint? He was given a safe role with instructions to not screw up. Mission accomplished. He might still get some offensive linemates in coming games. People are acting like he is a superstar being held back. He is a minor prospect at this point getting some game time due to a rash of injuries. Given the success Therrien has had with our rookies who are our first line a year later, maybe we should give him a bit of credit that he knows what he is doing. agree completely Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 I respect putting him on a line to get him to produce, don't get me wrong, but in my opinion, that's high risk. I prefer the low risk option unless the player is, say, Sydney Crosby. The debate comes down to philosophy, do you push the player, or insulate him. I've seen too many high profile guys destroyed because they weren't insulated. Mr Tyler Myers, come on down! You're the next contestant in Rush the Rookie! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 Monohon us getting regular pp time - something Galy squared didn't last year. Based on his play, DD doesn't look like he belongs in the NHL either. Monahan plays on a crappy (momentarily overachieving) team with few PP options. Holland, seems some see him as a 3rd liner at worst and some see as simply bottom six fill-in (at present). Like Leblanc and Bournival, I think he may be more a 2nd/3rd line player, in a couple-several years just not for this 5-15 game stint and as was said before, the current lines arnt written in stone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted October 23, 2013 Author Share Posted October 23, 2013 I respect putting him on a line to get him to produce, don't get me wrong, but in my opinion, that's high risk. I prefer the low risk option unless the player is, say, Sydney Crosby. The debate comes down to philosophy, do you push the player, or insulate him. I've seen too many high profile guys destroyed because they weren't insulated. Mr Tyler Myers, come on down! You're the next contestant in Rush the Rookie! He doesn't have to be rushed or asked to play huge minutes. But its just as detrimental to take a guy still developping both in his play and physically and ask him to play the grinder role on an energy line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 I respect putting him on a line to get him to produce, don't get me wrong, but in my opinion, that's high risk. I prefer the low risk option unless the player is, say, Sydney Crosby. The debate comes down to philosophy, do you push the player, or insulate him. I've seen too many high profile guys destroyed because they weren't insulated. Mr Tyler Myers, come on down! You're the next contestant in Rush the Rookie! Luke Schenn & Gary Nylund (once traded with Bergevin to Hawks) are other good contestants, both from Leafs. Schenn is still catching up, but 3rd overall Nylund never did develop after getting hung out to dry for 3 or 4 years in Toronto. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bar Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 Who's expecting Holland to shine ? I expect him to "not cost any game". That's it. He's a replacement. He's Shane Falco. Wooooa....thats a harsh statement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 I honestly don't think the 4th line was intended to be the crash and bang/high energy unit last night. To me, it seemed like their job was to play a few shifts a period and not screw up too badly, with White getting some added responsibilities in certain faceoff situations. (Kind of like it was a few years ago, with Darche, Weber, and insert centre here.) If they had intended for it to be a hitting line, I think they may have moved Moen there. The Oilers aren't an overly physical team so there wasn't really a need for an energy line as there is with certain opponents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nihilz Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 Galchenyuk Eller Gallagher Bourque Plekanec Gionta Dumont Bournival Leblanc Moen Tarnasky White Blunden At this point. This is what I'd like to see iced. Rotating Nasty & Blunden depending on opponent. Frankly. Waive Briere, Cube & DD. Let the kids play and chips fall where they may. This isn't the year anyhow. Get the kids some experience. Move forward with cash & roster spots that will want to be filled instead of needing to be filled. Move Moen, Gionta, Diaz & Markov at the deadline. Hopefully Markie would come back at a discount. Im done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 I honestly don't think the 4th line was intended to be the crash and bang/high energy unit last night. To me, it seemed like their job was to play a few shifts a period and not screw up too badly, with White getting some added responsibilities in certain faceoff situations. (Kind of like it was a few years ago, with Darche, Weber, and insert centre here.) If they had intended for it to be a hitting line, I think they may have moved Moen there. The Oilers aren't an overly physical team so there wasn't really a need for an energy line as there is with certain opponents. That was exactly my point on Monday. Oilers play a wide open game. Would have been a perfect time to give Holland an offensive opportunity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 Frankly. Waive Briere, Cube & DD. They cannot waive Briere. That's what his NMC prevents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 Galchenyuk Eller Gallagher Bourque Plekanec Gionta Dumont Bournival Leblanc Moen Tarnasky White Blunden At this point. This is what I'd like to see iced. Rotating Nasty & Blunden depending on opponent. Frankly. Waive Briere, Cube & DD. Let the kids play and chips fall where they may. This isn't the year anyhow. Get the kids some experience. Move forward with cash & roster spots that will want to be filled instead of needing to be filled. Move Moen, Gionta, Diaz & Markov at the deadline. Hopefully Markie would come back at a discount. Im done. With Price playing like he is, maybe all Habs need to do is sneak into playoffs and instead of fading a bit as he did last year, Price will steal a few games; so just a bit early only 9 games into season to be tossing in the towel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted October 24, 2013 Author Share Posted October 24, 2013 Luke Schenn & Gary Nylund (once traded with Bergevin to Hawks) are other good contestants, both from Leafs. Schenn is still catching up, but 3rd overall Nylund never did develop after getting hung out to dry for 3 or 4 years in Toronto. I'd argue that they weren't that good to begin with. Zach Hamil was drafted 7th overall by the Bruins, wasn't rushed, in fact he is no 25 and has played 20 NHL games cause he just isn't that good. Sometimes guys are just draft busts, had nothing to do with rushing them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 I'd argue that they weren't that good to begin with. Zach Hamil was drafted 7th overall by the Bruins, wasn't rushed, in fact he is no 25 and has played 20 NHL games cause he just isn't that good. Sometimes guys are just draft busts, had nothing to do with rushing them. sure, I just vaguely remember Nylund anyways, as a very high pick that was good for the Habs to play against and never panned out cept on physical side. and Schenn did seem like he was thrown to the wolves with a weak d-core and expected by the brainiac GM to live up to draft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovett's Magnatones Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 I agree with the philosophy, but applied to a situation like Pacioretty a few years ago. Holland projects to be a bottom six guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 He doesn't have to be rushed or asked to play huge minutes. But its just as detrimental to take a guy still developping both in his play and physically and ask him to play the grinder role on an energy line. No, he wasn't put on a grinder crasher line. He was put on a line which was going to be given limited minutes in order to give them (particularly him) a welcome to the big leagues where he wasn't relied upon. I dunno which Montreal team you're watching, but we don't have a "grinder" line. When there are only 3 forwards who are over 5'6 and they're spread out, there's no such thing as a grinder line. Unless it's peewee. Therrien did an *excellent* job with Holland. Small minutes. Situations where he can succeed. Smart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted October 24, 2013 Author Share Posted October 24, 2013 A line that features White and Blunden isn't a grinder line? Oh maybe those two guys with their 7 goals in 200 career games are being put out there to score goals. And please lets not talk about the forwards who are 5'6" in relation to this, because neither of White and Blunder, nor Moen who was playing on that line last week.. or parros who played on that line at the beginning of the year are of the 5'6" variety. Guys who are small, DD, Gio, Gallagher, have never been used with White this season... So I don't see how that is relevant at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neech Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 Bah, this isn't a big deal. We gave him tiny minutes and put him in low-pressure situations for the most part. It doen't really matter if he plays 5 minutes with Desharnais or with White, and it's certainly not 'detrimental to his development' to play with grinders in his first NHL game. Maybe it would be if he played out of position for his first season, but he's an emergency replacement who probably won't be here for long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted October 24, 2013 Author Share Posted October 24, 2013 Bah, this isn't a big deal. We gave him tiny minutes and put him in low-pressure situations for the most part. It doen't really matter if he plays 5 minutes with Desharnais or with White, and it's certainly not 'detrimental to his development' to play with grinders in his first NHL game. Maybe it would be if he played out of position for his first season, but he's an emergency replacement who probably won't be here for long. Its detrimental to the TEAM... to have two lines that are ineffective because Moen is out of position on the third and Holland is out of position on the fourth. Neither can play the role they are put in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neech Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 Its detrimental to the TEAM... to have two lines that are ineffective because Moen is out of position on the third and Holland is out of position on the fourth. Neither can play the role they are put in. Moen has previously been OK in a second line role, not optimal but decent enough as a stop-gap - and a better option than an untested rookie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 Moen has previously been OK in a second line role, not optimal but decent enough as a stop-gap - and a better option than an untested rookie. OK? Maybe in a Darchey way, but I would stick with Bournival, kid can skate and backchecks. But Moan does seem quicker and more willing to mix things up this year and he is an effective checker, but on rushs and around the net I would prefer to see the kid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 Commandant may have a point that this usage is detrimental to the team, right now. As to whether it's detrimental to the players' development, I have no idea. I've said it before: there is no one-size-fits-all model for player development. Some guys are ruined by being rushed (Fatendresse). Some guys can jump right in and eat big minutes (Seth Jones). Some guys struggle mightily for a while when given major minutes but eventually grow into it (Plekanec). Some - probably most - guys benefit from the Galy Squared treatment of being given sheltered minutes and gradually eased in. It depends on the individual and the environment. So while I think you can look back and retrospectively conclude that player X or Y was mishandled, I don't think it makes sense to pretend that we know what we're talking about when it's actually happening. We're just not close enough to the individuals involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForumGhost Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 They are simply introducing him to NHL hockey in the healthiest way possible. Let him get a sense for the pace of the game without over-exposing him. Obsiously, the 4th line sees the least amount of minutes, so not only are you not going to wear him out (you can't expect someone with the experience of Holland, who is in his first pro season, to play top 9 minutes), but also it represents the least amount of risk for the overall team having someone so inexperienced in the line-up. Also, playing with defensive-minded players like Moen can only be a good influence on young guys. Even if they have top 9 skill, you still want them to be responsible players. This strategy is only really a problem if he becomes a fixture on the 4th line or ends up in the press box for an extended period of time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted October 24, 2013 Author Share Posted October 24, 2013 They are simply introducing him to NHL hockey in the healthiest way possible. Let him get a sense for the pace of the game without over-exposing him. Obsiously, the 4th line sees the least amount of minutes, so not only are you not going to wear him out (you can't expect someone with the experience of Holland, who is in his first pro season, to play top 9 minutes), but also it represents the least amount of risk for the overall team having someone so inexperienced in the line-up. Also, playing with defensive-minded players like Moen can only be a good influence on young guys. Even if they have top 9 skill, you still want them to be responsible players. This strategy is only really a problem if he becomes a fixture on the 4th line or ends up in the press box for an extended period of time. I think he can still play limited minutes while being used in the top 9. Double shift moen some shifts.. but when holland goes on the ice put him in a position to succeed instead of with grinders. It takes a little creativity. But it can be done Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neech Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 Maybe he'll get a chance with other linemates after a few games if he's still up and doing alright. He was put in a situation with low pressure and expectations - probably the opposite of being set up for failure. You may have a point after a few weeks and we can tell that he's not getting a chance to progress, but for a first NHL game it was a reasonable role for him. Bournival started out with White and co. and it didn't hurt him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted October 25, 2013 Author Share Posted October 25, 2013 Maybe he'll get a chance with other linemates after a few games if he's still up and doing alright. He was put in a situation with low pressure and expectations - probably the opposite of being set up for failure. You may have a point after a few weeks and we can tell that he's not getting a chance to progress, but for a first NHL game it was a reasonable role for him. Bournival started out with White and co. and it didn't hurt him. Bournival is much grittier. Is also much better developped physically. There are guys who can handle that role.. Bournival yes... Geoffrion when given the role yes.. Louis Leblanc, etc... Guys who don't fit in that role, Holland, and Aaron Palushaj and Matt D'agostini, when we put them there. Also, I just saw Moen on the PP.... UGH! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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