When does Therrien get fired?

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I sincerely don't feel there's a single team out there that comes into Montreal laughing while saying "hey there's that coach Therrien, hands down the worst in the league and their management has no idea what they're doing".

Especially Therrien. I'm not going to defend him because I'm a neutral on him but he's made the cup final before and has done some good in this league. Bergevin hasn't done anything yet but I do agree that within the hockey community in terms of the NHL and NHLPA and GMs, owners, etc., I doubt any one of them would think Bergevin or Poile are a complete fool for making the move they did. It's closer than people are willing to admit. One can mention the cons of the move but there are also pros.

It's mainly fans who are overreacting. My head hurt the day I heard about the trade but it's not a cataclysmic move and so this harsh criticism is overblown.

Yeah, guys like Brian Burke and Cam Neely probably think it's a brilliant move. Everyone else - i.e., humans in possession of brains - thought it was a bizarre, inexplicable move by the Canadiens, and it remains so. Most teams don't trade superstars entering their prime for 31-year-olds entering their decline on a 10-year deals for 8 mil per. When the very best that can be hoped for from a trade is that it's a saw-off, well, that's a dumb trade. But like the Leafs fans we are, many of us are determined to keep believing.

[DON]

Yeah, guys like Brian Burke and Cam Neely probably think it's a brilliant move. Everyone else - i.e., humans in possession of brains - thought it was a bizarre, inexplicable move by the Canadiens, and it remains so. Most teams don't trade superstars entering their prime for 31-year-olds entering their decline on a 10-year deals for 8 mil per. When the very best that can be hoped for from a trade is that it's a saw-off, well, that's a dumb trade. But like the Leafs fans we are, many of us are determined to keep believing.

So 25% of HabFans responding to polls, that like the trade and another 10-20% who are OK with the trade are lacking brains?

Your opinion is just that, but don't need to crap like that on those who differ, do you? Or is that a crutch you need to help convince yourself you are smarter then us dummies?

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

So 25% of HabFans responding to polls, that like the trade and another 10-20% who are OK with the trade are lacking brains?

Your opinion is just that, but don't need to crap like that on those who differ, do you? Or is that a crutch you need to help convince yourself you are smarter then us dummies?

Oh, all right, I retract the "brains" comment. Although I continue to believe that liking this trade is primarily rooted either in tired old-school thinking or the not-uncommon tendency of fans to delude themselves so as to retain hope.

[xXx..CK..xXx]

Yeah, guys like Brian Burke and Cam Neely probably think it's a brilliant move. Everyone else - i.e., humans in possession of brains - thought it was a bizarre, inexplicable move by the Canadiens, and it remains so. Most teams don't trade superstars entering their prime for 31-year-olds entering their decline on a 10-year deals for 8 mil per. When the very best that can be hoped for from a trade is that it's a saw-off, well, that's a dumb trade. But like the Leafs fans we are, many of us are determined to keep believing.

This is not a Sidney Crosby for David Backes. This is not a Jonathan Toews for Shane Doan.

The thing is that even if it is a losing trade that baffles the mind, it is not one that puts ourselves in any different position of contention next season. If Carey Price is the reason we do well this season I can damn well assure you he would have been the reason we did well even with Subban on our team. The move changes the dynamic of the team but we are not that much worse or that much better simply because of it. In fact I think we are a better team on the ice this season when one looks outside of the microscope on PK Subban.

Lose faith in management because of one move even if the team continues to progress. Just letting you know CC, you've made your point. You made it even before Subban got traded. When people mentioned his name in trades you commented that a team doesn't trade PK Subban as if it were some written rule. The rule got broken and now you're adamantly against it.

If you're not able to enjoy the team that's fine, but don't compare other followers of the team to Leaf fans when your opinion can be the one that's incorrect. Your comparison to the Leafs is so off base because the Habs have had, in general, much more competitive teams than the Leafs since 1993. We've had our sniffs and key injuries have hurt us. It is also off base because the fans supporting the team even in the present believe that the team is better or still competitive despite the individual trade. You do as well, but management was mean. Leafs fans, I don't know what they do, but until maybe Austin Matthews and the new team behind the scenes, there has been no real indication that they should be competitive. As I said, no comparison.

[Scott462]

Oh, all right, I retract the "brains" comment. Although I continue to believe that liking this trade is primarily rooted either in tired old-school thinking or the not-uncommon tendency of fans to delude themselves so as to retain hope.

Or you could be like me and actually like Shea Weber.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

Lose faith in management because of one move even if the team continues to progress. Just letting you know CC, you've made your point. You made it even before Subban got traded. When people mentioned his name in trades you commented that a team doesn't trade PK Subban as if it were some written rule. The rule got broken and now you're adamantly against it.

If you're not able to enjoy the team that's fine, but don't compare other followers of the team to Leaf fans when your opinion can be the one that's incorrect. Your comparison to the Leafs is so off base because the Habs have had, in general, much more competitive teams than the Leafs since 1993. We've had our sniffs and key injuries have hurt us. It is also off base because the fans supporting the team even in the present believe that the team is better or still competitive despite the individual trade. You do as well, but management was mean. Leafs fans, I don't know what they do, but until maybe Austin Matthews and the new team behind the scenes, there has been no real indication that they should be competitive. As I said, no comparison.

In defence of CC and others like myself, we've been questioning Bergevin all season and not having the same faith in him as in previous years. His reluctance to fix the right wing hole (even this year he only signed Radulov for one year, he could be gone to Vegas next summer and the team will once again be hoping a kid moves up or another RW with question marks comes around to be signed for cheap), his reluctance to do anything to save the season before it got to the point of no return, the commitment to a failing coaching staff, all of that has led to big question marks on the way Bergevin has been managing. And a lot of us were saying that if Bergevin didn't make the right moves at free agency, faith would no longer be free. Marc proceeded to make a move we didn't have to make for reasons that still don't seem to have anything to do with the on ice product or the problem of the season.

Imagine if Marc Bergevin, instead of trading P.K. Subban, traded Alex Galchenyuk for Matt Duchene. Now, Duchene is a very good player. Put up 70 points once. He also scored 30 goals last year and had more points overall than Alex. Would you feel good about it? Would you feel like Bergevin just made a move that helps the team? Would you feel like the trade was made for on ice reasons or that the trade was made for other reasons stemming on Galchenyuk's constant disagreements with the coach about his place on the team? Would you be surprised when the people defending the deal say Galchenyuk just got his points because the Habs sucked and teams didn't care so they were easy points to score? Would you feel okay with Bergevin making that move? Would you trust this organization going forward if they trade the brightest young star on the team for a guy a few years older after it was pretty clear that player didn't see eye to eye with the coach?

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Weber is an excellent defenceman. He's just worse than PK Subban in several important areas of the game, is declining, has a worse contract, has a middling playoff track record, and diminishes the Habs' ability to handle the speed of teams like Pittsburgh and TB.

xXx, what I said was, a team doesn't trade PK Subban unless it makes the team better; and making the team better via such a trade required getting back a #1 defenceman AND a top-6 FW. Bergevin failed to achieve the second, and therefore succeeded only in weakening the team through the trade.

That said, I agreed at the time, and still agree, that Shaw is better than that dolt Eller, and that Radulov is a high-ceiling addition; so I share your view that, taken as a whole, the team is better overall. Of course, adding Price is massive. A top-10 team is my expectation.

The problem with downgrading on a core piece like Subban is that the downgrade will haunt you for years to come. In five years, we will still be mourning the loss of Subban because he will still be ripping it up; meanwhile, Preds fans will have long forgotten Weber. The best analogy for this trade is Turgeon-for-Corson, IF Turgeon had had about 8-10 years of elite production left in him.

As for management, they've made ONE major move - this one - and it was a revelatory moment. It revealed them to be blinkered and petty in their thinking, weakening the team at the key spot of #1 defenceman for years to come. I cannot believe in a management group that could make such a mistake, especially when, as I believe, the move was animated mainly by considerations that have nothing to do with on-ice excellence. If it was about that, they'd have kept PK Subban.

My point with the 'Leafs' analogy is that the Habs have not come even within sniffing distance of the Cup - not even the Finals, really, considering how we were manhandled by Philly when we did miraculously make the semis in '10 - in 23 frigging years. Yet since Savard took over in 2000 we, as fans, have continually believed that a return to glory was just around the corner. Even now, with a glaring piece of evidence that the organization is in the hands of hidebound dolts, many continue to believe this. The best hope for a Cup is that Price can take the team all the way before Weber's game really starts to decline - say, a 2-3 year window - because the longer MT and MB are in charge, the more degraded the organization is likely to become.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

I know people take the whole Leafs comparison like you were just insulted, but all Canadian teams are in the same boat (Winnipeg not as much but they'll get there). The most passionate, hardcore fans cheering for teams that have won nothing for decades. And the Canadiens and Leafs are the only ones who haven't seen the Stanley Cup final in at least 20 years. Nobody wants to walk away from these organizations we've loved for years but Canadian NHL teams are some of the worst managed, worst run, and unluckiest franchises in all of major sports. That's not by accident.

[xXx..CK..xXx]

I guess I felt the JM-Halak run team was a really special team (before Philly) and also felt that we had a real shot the Vanek year had Price not got injured. I definitely thought we could win the cup before Price went down. Two conference finals shows that we've been favorites in the East. Then again so have Washington and NYR and what do they have to show for it? Perhaps all of that is more revealing of my perspective as a fan more than anything.

I do think we've been the best Canadian team along with the Canucks for the past 15 years or so even though other Canadian teams have made the final within that span. The scary thing is that the Canucks and the Sedins seem to be a little more quiet as of late so hopefully the same doesn't happen to us as well. I do see positives with Carey Price but that's only where it starts. It's easy to say that if we win a Cup it will be because of him but when we do win the cup, it won't have been just because of him. He may win the Conne Smythe but if we do win we'll have needed a team. With still only a few tweaks, I see hope for the team.

I do wish we had more core pieces locked up for longer up front and a few like Desharnais should be gone. That's where we've really need a new look.

[illWill]

I think it's great that the Subban/Weber trade can be debated, like most comparable trades. I would say I have a neutral opinion on it as of now. And I think the only problem I have with the debate is that those against it do not budge on their opinion whatsoever. They are 100% convinced it is a bad trade with 0% chance it is a good trade. Whereas those who like the trade or are neutral want to see how it works out.

[hab29RETIRED]

That's called hedging your bets, or sitting on the fence, or once again following Management like a blind sheep until they are once again proven wrong.

You probably thought the gomez deal was great as well.

I think it's great that the Subban/Weber trade can be debated, like most comparable trades. I would say I have a neutral opinion on it as of now. And I think the only problem I have with the debate is that those against it do not budge on their opinion whatsoever. They are 100% convinced it is a bad trade with 0% chance it is a good trade. Whereas those who like the trade or are neutral want to see how it works out.

[illWill]

That's called hedging your bets, or sitting on the fence, or once again following Management like a blind sheep until they are once again proven wrong.

You probably thought the gomez deal was great as well.

It's called being a realist. I recognize that there is a chance it could work out in different ways. To sit here and say that it's a bad deal before 1 game is played is just plain dumb when it involves two elite players.

As far as the Gomez trade goes, I hated that trade more than any other one because I constantly chirped my buddy who is a Rangers fan about Gomez and his ridiculous contract. But why debate with you about anything? You know it all anyway. Your opinion is the only correct opinion. I vote to rename this site Habs29World

[DON]

Oh, all right, I retract the "brains" comment. Although I continue to believe that liking this trade is primarily rooted either in tired old-school thinking or the not-uncommon tendency of fans to delude themselves so as to retain hope.

You could be correct, but doubtful is all tired and deluded reasoning, only time will tell.

[Meller93]

It's called being a realist. I recognize that there is a chance it could work out in different ways. To sit here and say that it's a bad deal before 1 game is played is just plain dumb when it involves two elite players.

I think it's because those who hate the trade look at it in a completely different way than those who are neutral/positive about it. Those who hate the trade I would say generally have a more analytical mindset, and are looking further into the trade's future. Those who are ok with it look at the impact in has now. Personally, I think the Habs will just fine with Weber over the next 3 years or so. He is an elite defenceman, and that's fine.

At the risk of speaking for others it's the part where we watch PK continue to dominate when Weber is 35 and slower than an asthmatic sloth that I'm worried about.

And I won't rehash my schpeel about trade value, which I think Subban has more of than Weber.

[xXx..CK..xXx]

I think it's because those who hate the trade look at it in a completely different way than those who are neutral/positive about it. Those who hate the trade I would say generally have a more analytical mindset, and are looking further into the trade's future. Those who are ok with it look at the impact in has now. Personally, I think the Habs will just fine with Weber over the next 3 years or so. He is an elite defenceman, and that's fine.

At the risk of speaking for others it's the part where we watch PK continue to dominate when Weber is 35 and slower than an asthmatic sloth that I'm worried about.

And I won't rehash my schpeel about trade value, which I think Subban has more of than Weber.

In 3 years we have Weber and Sergachev. Maybe we have Oliver Ekman Larsson as well. Weber will be really solid for longer than 3 years. Honest estimate of mine is 5-6 years at a bare minimum. His slap shot won't go away and speed already isn't his strength.

The fact it's 10 years long is a solid argument against it but there will be ways to get out of the contract near the end IF that's the case and then we'll have 9 million to spend on someone.

It might sound like a weak argument in response to defending a trade. But it's only a response to those who are looking 5 years down the road.

[Meller93]

In 3 years we have Weber and Sergachev. Maybe we have Oliver Ekman Larsson as well. Weber will be really solid for longer than 3 years. Honest estimate of mine is 5-6 years at a bare minimum. His slap shot won't go away and speed already isn't his strength.

The fact it's 10 years long is a solid argument against it but there will be ways to get out of the contract near the end IF that's the case and then we'll have 9 million to spend on someone.

It might sound like a weak argument in response to defending a trade. But it's only a response to those who are looking 5 years down the road.

Yea but I mean in three years we could have had Sergachev and Subban too. Sure Weber will be solid for 5-6 years, but I want better than solid, because I believe we just traded 7 years of elite.

[DON]

Yea but I mean in three years we could have had Sergachev and Subban too. Sure Weber will be solid for 5-6 years, but I want better than solid, because I believe we just traded 7 years of elite.

Elite headaches for coaches/teamates as well and I believe that Weber coming on-board should only lengthen firing timeline for Coach.

[kaos]

The best hope for a Cup is that Price can take the team all the way before Weber's game really starts to decline - say, a 2-3 year window - because the longer MT and MB are in charge, the more degraded the organization is likely to become.

For the last year or 2 the time line has been to win a cup in the next 3 to 5 years before cheap Pacioretty and Price contracts need renewing and while Subban is in his Prime. Weber fits that timeline, will do as Therrien wishes, then regardless of results, can be moved out as the Habs get old and expensive and retool.

Unfortunately has yet to assemble the finishing pieces to win the cup.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

Weber fits that timeline, will do as Therrien wishes, then regardless of results, can be moved out as the Habs get old and expensive and retool.

Nobody really considers that Weber never wanted to goto Montreal and might not embrace it here. He'll say the right things now but what happens if the season goes poorly and Shea is treated to boos every time he plays in the Bell Centre?

It's entirely possible that Shea might be what Bergevin prefers, but Montreal becomes a place Weber wants nothing to do with. What then?

[DON]

Nobody really considers that Weber never wanted to goto Montreal and might not embrace it here. He'll say the right things now but what happens if the season goes poorly and Shea is treated to boos every time he plays in the Bell Centre?

It's entirely possible that Shea might be what Bergevin prefers, but Montreal becomes a place Weber wants nothing to do with. What then?

That would fly in the face of one main reason he was traded for. Leadership and Captain material, which Bergevin had to see was lacking once 31-11 went down and so he added it this off-season. And Weber plays a safe game, will hammer home goals from the point, lay out a few big hits and protect Carey, so unlikely to become a player treated poorly by the home fans, even though was traded for the fan favourite.

The big X-factor is Radulov, can he help finally put them over the top?

[habs rule]

It's called being a realist. I recognize that there is a chance it could work out in different ways. To sit here and say that it's a bad deal before 1 game is played is just plain dumb when it involves two elite players.

As far as the Gomez trade goes, I hated that trade more than any other one because I constantly chirped my buddy who is a Rangers fan about Gomez and his ridiculous contract. But why debate with you about anything? You know it all anyway. Your opinion is the only correct opinion. I vote to rename this site Habs29World

sounds good to me.

That would fly in the face of one main reason he was traded for. Leadership and Captain material, which Bergevin had to see was lacking once 31-11 went down and so he added it this off-season. And Weber plays a safe game, will hammer home goals from the point, lay out a few big hits and protect Carey, so unlikely to become a player treated poorly by the home fans, even though was traded for the fan favourite.

The big X-factor is Radulov, can he help finally put them over the top?

Hey here's idea maybe we should not have traded for him?

[DON]

sounds good to me.

Hey here's idea maybe we should not have traded for him?

Radulov?

[habs rule]

Radulov?

Still stirring, always good to see.

[DON]

On ‎2016‎-‎07‎-‎30 at 10:57 PM, habs rule said:

Still stirring, always good to see.

OH, you will really like this;

(from NHL.com)

"One man who definitely isn't short on energy, according to Lacroix, is head coach Michel Therrien. Both he and the rest of the Canadiens' assistants have a great deal of respect and admiration for the 52-year-old Montreal native, who is headed into his fifth straight year behind the bench on home turf.

"I've worked with a few coaches in the league, and I've told Mike [Michel] that he's as sharp as they come behind the bench. He sees the game extremely well. He's got tremendous communication with his players," explained Lacroix, whom Therrien has tasked with scouting the Canadiens' opponents and sharing game preparation duties alongside Clement Jodoin, in addition to being an important presence at practice. "You see one Mike behind the camera, but we see him every day. He trusts his staff to do a job for him, for the team. We're just a continuation of his coaching and we know where we're going. We're as prepared as any staff in the league. I truly feel that."

Jodoin, meanwhile, lauded Therrien's incredible work ethic all year long - along with his relentless desire to win, too.

"I'm with him every day. His passion is unbelievable. He has one thing - he wants to win. Every game, he's expecting the best from everybody. His purpose, every time he steps behind the bench, is to win 81 games. We're over there to win. We're not over there to get close. He's a guy who's pushing everybody," said Jodoin, four full years into his second stint with the Canadiens following QMJHL head coaching stays in Lewiston and Rimouski, and one season at the helm of the AHL's Hamilton Bulldogs. "For the last few years, there's no question that I've been learning a lot from him about the details. Like he says, "my little mouse is working 24 hours a day." He's always thinking about details, details, details. The way he's sharing the workload, everyone's involved."

[habs rule]

1 hour ago, DON said:

OH, you will really like this;

(from NHL.com)

"One man who definitely isn't short on energy, according to Lacroix, is head coach Michel Therrien. Both he and the rest of the Canadiens' assistants have a great deal of respect and admiration for the 52-year-old Montreal native, who is headed into his fifth straight year behind the bench on home turf.

"I've worked with a few coaches in the league, and I've told Mike [Michel] that he's as sharp as they come behind the bench. He sees the game extremely well. He's got tremendous communication with his players," explained Lacroix, whom Therrien has tasked with scouting the Canadiens' opponents and sharing game preparation duties alongside Clement Jodoin, in addition to being an important presence at practice. "You see one Mike behind the camera, but we see him every day. He trusts his staff to do a job for him, for the team. We're just a continuation of his coaching and we know where we're going. We're as prepared as any staff in the league. I truly feel that."

Jodoin, meanwhile, lauded Therrien's incredible work ethic all year long - along with his relentless desire to win, too.

"I'm with him every day. His passion is unbelievable. He has one thing - he wants to win. Every game, he's expecting the best from everybody. His purpose, every time he steps behind the bench, is to win 81 games. We're over there to win. We're not over there to get close. He's a guy who's pushing everybody," said Jodoin, four full years into his second stint with the Canadiens following QMJHL head coaching stays in Lewiston and Rimouski, and one season at the helm of the AHL's Hamilton Bulldogs. "For the last few years, there's no question that I've been learning a lot from him about the details. Like he says, "my little mouse is working 24 hours a day." He's always thinking about details, details, details. The way he's sharing the workload, everyone's involved."

I want to thank you for keeping the the thread going.