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When does Therrien get fired?


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I don't think Weber is the player Subban is. I also don't think Subban is the player Weber is. Our team has very few all stars; Weber is one of those all stars.

 

I get that the argument is simply about Weber tapering off but without trying to predict the future, I'm going to be very happy that we have Weber come playoff time. It's the players around him who need to step up as well. 80%+ of the players in the league taper off during the long grind of a season so why be on him about an issue that affects most of the players in the league?

 

Where is Weber's leadership? We can't possibly know what's going on in the locker room, remember? I wouldn't doubt that he's been a great leader throughout this whole process of a season. Perhaps his "leadership" was part of the reason many people got their wish when it comes to Therrien getting fired. It's all speculation.

 

Bergevin needs to get a puck moving defenseman to play with Weber. Beaulieu is not the answer this season and I was his biggest advocate. In all honesty, it's very possible that all the eyes in the world that matter are missing that we have a potentially elite 1st pairing with Weber-Markov. Markov was on the 1st pair only last season. The only problem is that it's not possible because Markov cannot play those type of minutes. If we can get a younger Markov like player, however, we're gravy. If not, I still won't be complaining about Weber tapering off unless it's painfully obvious. If Subban were on the team, the defense would still need to be addressed. I watch every game and Weber is there around our net for some goals against but he's not getting blown away by the opposition.

 

 

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The point about leadership isn't that I know what is happening in the room.

 

The point is that its done nothing on the ice to take us out of the tailspin.

 

Leadership exists.  I'm just not sure it leads to wins.  My point is that you should pay for talent, not things like leadership and character. 

 

As for Weber-Markov.  The issue is that both have trouble with really fast opposition.  I like Markov with a Subban, or Markov with a Petry.  I'm not sure I like him with a Weber. 

 

 

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4 hours ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

 

Subban's point total by month:

 October 5 

november 10 

December 2

January 1

February 4

 

Weber's point total by month:

October 10

November 8

December 3

January 10

February 1

 

Two months ago would put us in mid December. Are we talking about when Weber got a whopping 3 points to Subban's 2? Or are we talking about November when Subban got 10 points to Weber's 8? Or are we just trying to create a narrative. Based on stats alone, Subban's arguably had a better February, I agree. I guess that's what people have been waiting for. It looks to me like Weber was able to bounce back after a mediocre December as well though.

 

We're not talking about stats? Oh okay, Weber's defensive play has been the cause of our slump and the reason our coach got fired, while Subban has been exquisite in his defensive play. That's what I was missing. :sarcasm_on:

 

 

Are you really that clueless???  You do realize subban played 18 games less than Weber because of injuries right and despite that only has 9 less points????  Subban was injured most of December and January with a hernia injury and started the year with food poisoning with the rest of the predators.  What's webers excuse for the drop off in his play after???

 

What was the reason that Weber was brought in???  Leadership.   The team completely collapsed and the argument was that the leadership group of maxpac, subban and Gallagher (who was also injured). were ineffective to prevent the collapse that occurred after price went down.  There was also a feeling we needed a tougher dman to prevent teams for taking runs at Price.  The big feared and fearless leader Weber was supposed to bring leadership and prevent a similar collapse.  Guess what he brought didley squat to prevent a similar collapse as last year.  The great mark messier leadership award winner did squat to prevent a melt down.  He was supposed to exert fear in teams and prevent them for taking runs at Price.  Guess what he failed in that regard as well.  He was so good at preventing teams at taking runs at Price, that the usually cool, calm and collected Price finally snapped having to fend for himself.   And has looked more like red light racicot than the best goalie in the world.  Yep, Weber did wonders at helping out price and bringing leadership to this team.

 

If the trade was petry for Weber, it would have been a decent deal.  We would have picked up a guy who could have been a top pairing dman with subban and we would have still had a dynamic puck moving dman that we are now lacking.  Instead we have an old declining dman whose contract is going to be an anchor on this team the last 4 or 5 years of his deal.  A guy who while still having a cannon for a shot, gets hemmed in almost as badly in his own end as Emelin, and is about as effective as Emelin in transitioning the puck out of his own end.  And by the genius that is MT, the two dman have been paired together all year.

 

all because our idiotic GM didn't do what any other friggin GM would have done - fired a useless fat Fxck who should never have been hired to begin with.  He choose his asshole buddy (or fox hole buddy), over a franchise dman.  He signed an pleks to an extension and didn't even try to move him at the deadline last year.  He signed a 3rd line guy dumb as Sean Avery to a 5 year deal, just because he played for a cup winner.

 

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7 hours ago, Commandant said:

You're missing the point.

 

Weber played better 2 months ago.

 

Subban is playing better right now. 

 

 

The concerning thing is that this has been a recurring pattern with Weber, getting worse later in the season. It was something mentionned around the time of the trade. 

Agreed.  And don't forget that subban was hurt.

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6 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Are you really that clueless???  You do realize subban played 18 games less than Weber because of injuries right and despite that only has 9 less points????  Subban was injured most of December and January with a hernia injury and started the year with food poisoning with the rest of the predators.  What's webers excuse for the drop off in his play after???

 

What was the reason that Weber was brought in???  Leadership.   The team completely collapsed and the argument was that the leadership group of maxpac, subban and Gallagher (who was also injured). were ineffective to prevent the collapse that occurred after price went down.  There was also a feeling we needed a tougher dman to prevent teams for taking runs at Price.  The big feared and fearless leader Weber was supposed to bring leadership and prevent a similar collapse.  Guess what he brought didley squat to prevent a similar collapse as last year.  The great mark messier leadership award winner did squat to prevent a melt down.  He was supposed to exert fear in teams and prevent them for taking runs at Price.  Guess what he failed in that regard as well.  He was so good at preventing teams at taking runs at Price, that the usually cool, calm and collected Price finally snapped having to fend for himself.   And has looked more like red light racicot than the best goalie in the world.  Yep, Weber did wonders at helping out price and bringing leadership to this team.

 

If the trade was petry for Weber, it would have been a decent deal.  We would have picked up a guy who could have been a top pairing dman with subban and we would have still had a dynamic puck moving dman that we are now lacking.  Instead we have an old declining dman whose contract is going to be an anchor on this team the last 4 or 5 years of his deal.  A guy who while still having a cannon for a shot, gets hemmed in almost as badly in his own end as Emelin, and is about as effective as Emelin in transitioning the puck out of his own end.  And by the genius that is MT, the two dman have been paired together all year.

 

all because our idiotic GM didn't do what any other friggin GM would have done - fired a useless fat Fxck who should never have been hired to begin with.  He choose his asshole buddy (or fox hole buddy), over a franchise dman.  He signed an pleks to an extension and didn't even try to move him at the deadline last year.  He signed a 3rd line guy dumb as Sean Avery to a 5 year deal, just because he played for a cup winner.

 

 

So much to debate with here but not enough time in the world to do so

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The bottom line is that the Weber trade has solved exactly zero problems while creating new ones (the need for a nimble puck mover, substantially shortening the cup window). Because Weber is a legit top pairing guy it's not a disaster like Savard for Chelios, but it's still a dumb, unnecessary trade, period.

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7 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

The bottom line is that the Weber trade has solved exactly zero problems while creating new ones (the need for a nimble puck mover, substantially shortening the cup window). Because Weber is a legit top pairing guy it's not a disaster like Savard for Chelios, but it's still a dumb, unnecessary trade, period.

 

Exactly this. 

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1 minute ago, Scott462 said:

We don't know if it has solved problems or not. Still too early to tell really but I get people are searching for a chance to say I was right!!!

 

They have been unable to come out of the tailspin and had to fire the coach because of it.  I'm pretty sure thats enough time to say the leadership is not having an effect on the ice. 

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11 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

They have been unable to come out of the tailspin and had to fire the coach because of it.  I'm pretty sure thats enough time to say the leadership is not having an effect on the ice. 

 

That's unfair to blame on Weber. I'm sure he is a fine leader but he is brand new to the club so I'm sure he knows he has to tread lightly coming to a new team and start throwing his weight around.

 

But what about the teams true leader, the leader that was missing all of last year? Price or Pacorietty? Personally I think the blame should fall at their feet more than Weber who has only been with the club for half a season. Which is why I think it is not decided yet still way too early. I thought that when Weber was lighting it up. Thought that when PK was injured and I still think that now.

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I'm not "blaming" it on Weber.

 

I'm saying that one of the reasons he was acquired was to add leadership to the group that tailspinned last year. 

 

What I'm saying is that addition of leadership has not changed a damn thing.  There is no difference in this area vs when Subban was here. 

 

Of course I'm of the belief that things like leadership and character get massively, massively overrated. 

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16 hours ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

If Subban gets injured it's an excuse but if Weber is hurting he's old. So this season doesn't count? Alright well if Weber gets injured in 3 years due to his age, let's just not count that year in our assessment.

 

If Weber is already old and hurting then Montreal has a serious problem. He shouldn't be at the same point Markov is.

 

Also it's pretty obvious at this point that "leadership" is a dogwhistle for "quiet". Shea Weber doesn't bring anything to the table in the locker room that changes the team posititvely. He's just quieter with the media. 

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The one thing I feel is important re: Weber is seeing him with a better defensive partner. I think there's too much slack he's given for carrying Emelin (Markov did a better job carrying Komisarek and rarely was he talked about the game way Weber is talked about) but I do think he has to work extra to make up for having a terrible defensive partner. I still don't know what drugs people were on thinking Emelin was suddenly a first pairing D. He was awful. It just felt like he was good when he was hitting guys.

 

If Markov takes a bad spill Montreal will have the worst left defence in the NHL by a mile (subtract Markov and Pacioretty and the Habs have the weakest left side in the league). Bergevin decided to do nothing and let Therrien try to make Emelin a first pair D. I don't think one can completely evaluate Weber until he's given a better partner, but it does explain that Weber is not prime Markov or even Subban, who did a much better job carrying Gorges and Bouillon. He needs a smart mobile left defenceman to play his game at full bars.

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41 minutes ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

The one thing I feel is important re: Weber is seeing him with a better defensive partner. I think there's too much slack he's given for carrying Emelin (Markov did a better job carrying Komisarek and rarely was he talked about the game way Weber is talked about) but I do think he has to work extra to make up for having a terrible defensive partner. I still don't know what drugs people were on thinking Emelin was suddenly a first pairing D. He was awful. It just felt like he was good when he was hitting guys.

 

If Markov takes a bad spill Montreal will have the worst left defence in the NHL by a mile (subtract Markov and Pacioretty and the Habs have the weakest left side in the league). Bergevin decided to do nothing and let Therrien try to make Emelin a first pair D. I don't think one can completely evaluate Weber until he's given a better partner, but it does explain that Weber is not prime Markov or even Subban, who did a much better job carrying Gorges and Bouillon. He needs a smart mobile left defenceman to play his game at full bars.

 

This is a good point but I think Subban would struggle just as much as Weber has in trying to carry the load with Emelin. I think it was tried a couple times last year with terrible results.

 

I think both guys need at least a good partner to play with even if they have completely different styles. That's not to say Emelin hasn't had a great year definitely better than last year when he played with Subban a couple times but he is what he is in the end. 

 

I do agree though we do need help on the left side, especially on defence with Markov aging and Beaulieu up in the air.

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5 hours ago, illWill said:

 

So much to debate with here but not enough time in the world to do so

Nor desire... sometimes all that comes out of a hole is sh!t...not worth debating, because it's just that, sh!t.

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50 minutes ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

The one thing I feel is important re: Weber is seeing him with a better defensive partner. I think there's too much slack he's given for carrying Emelin (Markov did a better job carrying Komisarek and rarely was he talked about the game way Weber is talked about) but I do think he has to work extra to make up for having a terrible defensive partner. I still don't know what drugs people were on thinking Emelin was suddenly a first pairing D. He was awful. It just felt like he was good when he was hitting guys.

 

If Markov takes a bad spill Montreal will have the worst left defence in the NHL by a mile (subtract Markov and Pacioretty and the Habs have the weakest left side in the league). Bergevin decided to do nothing and let Therrien try to make Emelin a first pair D. I don't think one can completely evaluate Weber until he's given a better partner, but it does explain that Weber is not prime Markov or even Subban, who did a much better job carrying Gorges and Bouillon. He needs a smart mobile left defenceman to play his game at full bars.

Excellent ^

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13 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Are you really that clueless???  You do realize subban played 18 games less than Weber because of injuries right and despite that only has 9 less points????  Subban was injured most of December and January with a hernia injury and started the year with food poisoning with the rest of the predators.  What's webers excuse for the drop off in his play after???

 

What was the reason that Weber was brought in???  Leadership.   The team completely collapsed and the argument was that the leadership group of maxpac, subban and Gallagher (who was also injured). were ineffective to prevent the collapse that occurred after price went down.  There was also a feeling we needed a tougher dman to prevent teams for taking runs at Price.  The big feared and fearless leader Weber was supposed to bring leadership and prevent a similar collapse.  Guess what he brought didley squat to prevent a similar collapse as last year.  The great mark messier leadership award winner did squat to prevent a melt down.  He was supposed to exert fear in teams and prevent them for taking runs at Price.  Guess what he failed in that regard as well.  He was so good at preventing teams at taking runs at Price, that the usually cool, calm and collected Price finally snapped having to fend for himself.   And has looked more like red light racicot than the best goalie in the world.  Yep, Weber did wonders at helping out price and bringing leadership to this team.

 

If the trade was petry for Weber, it would have been a decent deal.  We would have picked up a guy who could have been a top pairing dman with subban and we would have still had a dynamic puck moving dman that we are now lacking.  Instead we have an old declining dman whose contract is going to be an anchor on this team the last 4 or 5 years of his deal.  A guy who while still having a cannon for a shot, gets hemmed in almost as badly in his own end as Emelin, and is about as effective as Emelin in transitioning the puck out of his own end.  And by the genius that is MT, the two dman have been paired together all year.

 

all because our idiotic GM didn't do what any other friggin GM would have done - fired a useless fat Fxck who should never have been hired to begin with.  He choose his asshole buddy (or fox hole buddy), over a franchise dman.  He signed an pleks to an extension and didn't even try to move him at the deadline last year.  He signed a 3rd line guy dumb as Sean Avery to a 5 year deal, just because he played for a cup winner.

 

If you could think a little bit outside your and Subban's own world, my point was that Subban actually had decent numbers compared to Weber a few months ago. Someone said he was playing great two months ago and Subban wasn't and that the reverse was now true; in effect trying to portray a contrast that Weber regresses while Subban progresses as a season wears on. The argument that he's good early on and bad late has no statistical basis yet. After a mediocre December, he bounced back in January with a decent showing. Two weeks into February and we want to jump on him? His defensive play has not regressed as much as some are saying and his offensive numbers don't show any trends either. Everyone knows Subban was injured but I didn't mention it because it's irrelevant.

 

If anyone's leadership should be brought into question its Price's leadership which has clearly been missing throughout this slump rather than Weber. Price has a mental lapse and it's credited and excused because he hypothetically wanted Therrien gone. Something which was further evidenced by his great game against Winnipeg. But Weber's leadership is in question? Shouldn't you be happy that his "lack of leadership" did you a favor and helped get the coach canned, just like Price's lackadaisical effort did?

 

What exactly do you expect Weber to do? Do you ask that he physically pick up the other team's player and physically throw him out of the crease? Do you want him to whisper sweet nothings into the opponents ear about how he will commit a crime on their family if they so much as come within an inch of Price? Do you want him to rip their heads off during a headlock which in turn will lead him to a 5, a game and a 22 game suspension, and life in prison?

 

Is that really what you thought Weber's main strength is? If you want to get on him, get on him for not being more dangerous on the power play as of late. This is a rational thing to be upset about but it's also something he'll likely turn around. 

 

The difference I see here is that while Price has indeed had a recent slump which has been league wide acknowledged, people are looking a little too hard into finding a reason to hate on Weber. 

 

Enjoy and have fun. 

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Guest Stogey24
12 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Are you really that clueless???  You do realize subban played 18 games less than Weber because of injuries right and despite that only has 9 less points????  Subban was injured most of December and January with a hernia injury and started the year with food poisoning with the rest of the predators.  What's webers excuse for the drop off in his play after???

 

What was the reason that Weber was brought in???  Leadership.   The team completely collapsed and the argument was that the leadership group of maxpac, subban and Gallagher (who was also injured). were ineffective to prevent the collapse that occurred after price went down.  There was also a feeling we needed a tougher dman to prevent teams for taking runs at Price.  The big feared and fearless leader Weber was supposed to bring leadership and prevent a similar collapse.  Guess what he brought didley squat to prevent a similar collapse as last year.  The great mark messier leadership award winner did squat to prevent a melt down.  He was supposed to exert fear in teams and prevent them for taking runs at Price.  Guess what he failed in that regard as well.  He was so good at preventing teams at taking runs at Price, that the usually cool, calm and collected Price finally snapped having to fend for himself.   And has looked more like red light racicot than the best goalie in the world.  Yep, Weber did wonders at helping out price and bringing leadership to this team.

 

If the trade was petry for Weber, it would have been a decent deal.  We would have picked up a guy who could have been a top pairing dman with subban and we would have still had a dynamic puck moving dman that we are now lacking.  Instead we have an old declining dman whose contract is going to be an anchor on this team the last 4 or 5 years of his deal.  A guy who while still having a cannon for a shot, gets hemmed in almost as badly in his own end as Emelin, and is about as effective as Emelin in transitioning the puck out of his own end.  And by the genius that is MT, the two dman have been paired together all year.

 

all because our idiotic GM didn't do what any other friggin GM would have done - fired a useless fat Fxck who should never have been hired to begin with.  He choose his asshole buddy (or fox hole buddy), over a franchise dman.  He signed an pleks to an extension and didn't even try to move him at the deadline last year.  He signed a 3rd line guy dumb as Sean Avery to a 5 year deal, just because he played for a cup winner.

 

That's a good post man.

 

This d-core went to shit. Bergevin needs to make a move. 

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I think the reason they got rid of him was because Terrell, I mean PK, had a nauseating, look at me, personality, and his endless self promotion was seen as a distraction by management. They saw an opportunity to pick up an equally good number 1 defense who could equal his point production without the drama and distraction. At a 1.2 million savings in cap hit. They lost out on a mobile defenseman. That is certain. But I do not believe they lost. Not even a little bit. No PK. I dont have my popcorn ready. Take your brand to smashville. They like cancer players down there.

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6 hours ago, Scott462 said:

 

This is a good point but I think Subban would struggle just as much as Weber has in trying to carry the load with Emelin. I think it was tried a couple times last year with terrible results.

 

I think both guys need at least a good partner to play with even if they have completely different styles. That's not to say Emelin hasn't had a great year definitely better than last year when he played with Subban a couple times but he is what he is in the end. 

 

I do agree though we do need help on the left side, especially on defence with Markov aging and Beaulieu up in the air.

 

The year Subban won the Norris he played more 5v5 minutes with Franky Bouillion than any other partner.  Think about that for a minute.

 

Emelin is better than Frankie Bouillion was in 2013. 

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Guest Stogey24
37 minutes ago, BCHabnut said:

I think the reason they got rid of him was because Terrell, I mean PK, had a nauseating, look at me, personality, and his endless self promotion was seen as a distraction by management. They saw an opportunity to pick up an equally good number 1 defense who could equal his point production without the drama and distraction. At a 1.2 million savings in cap hit. They lost out on a mobile defenseman. That is certain. But I do not believe they lost. Not even a little bit. No PK. I dont have my popcorn ready. Take your brand to smashville. They like cancer players down there

The dressing room problem was the real reason he was dealt. Well that's what I think anyways. It's really ashame. 

 

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