The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 Or the Coach kindly old gentleman that he is is a piece of shit . It is possible n'es pas C'est possible, but those exact same players have been perfectly productive under Le Genius before. So I'd tend not to think he is the key variable. Old age is much more likely in the case of Pleks and Markov. Conversely, it could just be an unfortunate concatenation of slumps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habs rule Posted January 9, 2016 Author Share Posted January 9, 2016 C'est possible, but those exact same players have been perfectly productive under Le Genius before. So I'd tend not to think he is the key variable. Old age is much more likely in the case of Pleks and Markov. Conversely, it could just be an unfortunate concatenation of slumps. And I do not disagree, but I am beginning to question the GM whom I have always supported with either not being able to find the players or not realizing that Le Genius is not an offensive coach but a really good defensive coach who has kinda lost the team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Link67 Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 And I do not disagree, but I am beginning to question the GM whom I have always supported with either not being able to find the players or not realizing that Le Genius is not an offensive coach but a really good defensive coach who has kinda lost the team. every team goes through things like this, even the greatest, look at Chicago, had their post season in jeopardy for half the season, get in not where they should have, but get it together in the end with great results. There was a stretch where people and analysts where questioning their window, changes were coming, but nothing happened, no firings no trades, just a team capable of better than they were showing, getting themselves to a higher level on their own because that was what they were capable of. Are we as good as our start? no, are we as bad as this slump? no. Grab hold of the railings, hold on to your hat, and let out a diabolical laugh all the way down the rapids as Captain Barbosa would, because their is sure to be calmer waters ahead. Making decisions under the mindset of panic and the world is crumbling often forces a move you end up regretting in the end for one reason or another. Bergevin is doing exactly what he should be doing in this market right now, not listening to a single panic stricken fan's cries for block buster shake ups. Especially since i'm sure all of the other GMs smell blood in this slump and are negotiating in the position of ,you need me more than I need you, pretext , asking inflated prices for anything Bergevin asks about hoping he succumbs to our cries. No, i do believe he is doing a fine job, more so in this slump, which is the most adversity this group, including management, has faced since its been brought in. He is showing the character to deal with his surroundings, the cold as ice ability to negotiate a good deal or none at all even if the situation would be easy to do otherwise. We are lucky to have him at the helm, we are lucky to have stability in this organization, we are lucky to have management who believes in its core, and they will become better for it. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habs rule Posted January 10, 2016 Author Share Posted January 10, 2016 every team goes through things like this, even the greatest, look at Chicago, had their post season in jeopardy for half the season, get in not where they should have, but get it together in the end with great results. There was a stretch where people and analysts where questioning their window, changes were coming, but nothing happened, no firings no trades, just a team capable of better than they were showing, getting themselves to a higher level on their own because that was what they were capable of. Are we as good as our start? no, are we as bad as this slump? no. Grab hold of the railings, hold on to your hat, and let out a diabolical laugh all the way down the rapids as Captain Barbosa would, because their is sure to be calmer waters ahead. Making decisions under the mindset of panic and the world is crumbling often forces a move you end up regretting in the end for one reason or another. Bergevin is doing exactly what he should be doing in this market right now, not listening to a single panic stricken fan's cries for block buster shake ups. Especially since i'm sure all of the other GMs smell blood in this slump and are negotiating in the position of ,you need me more than I need you, pretext , asking inflated prices for anything Bergevin asks about hoping he succumbs to our cries. No, i do believe he is doing a fine job, more so in this slump, which is the most adversity this group, including management, has faced since its been brought in. He is showing the character to deal with his surroundings, the cold as ice ability to negotiate a good deal or none at all even if the situation would be easy to do otherwise. We are lucky to have him at the helm, we are lucky to have stability in this organization, we are lucky to have management who believes in its core, and they will become better for it. . Really? So we have needed a sniper/rw for 4 years ok maybe since Guy left and this is good management? Ok then Let's not worry about a team that Brendon Gallagher a 5 ft 8 inch guy is the toughest s.o.b on the team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Link67 Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 My post never suggested not to do anything at all, it suggested to hold on tight until the deals that aren't asking for outrageous returns start to file in, not inactivity but patience. You really believe Bergevin is sitting at home binge watching Game of Thrones instead of calling a bunch of different teams about his needs? Come on now, we are not the only ones that realize we need a secondary scoring threat on this team, everyone on that management floor is aware of it, and likely trying to do something about it, just not at all costs, and certainly not a cost we would end up regretting, unlike most people around here. Anaheim has way more reason to succumb to panic than us, they were actually a true contender, a supposed powerhouse and they have been faltering all season yet despite that have not fired everyone and traded everyone yet. Why? because you can't just be short sighted in this league, you can't fall into a hole where all you see is the last 4 weeks and base all your next moves on that. They have the same team as last year, no one complained about it then, we have the same team as last year, and although we needed some offense, we managed to stay among the top teams. That was with big bad coach Therrien, lackluster bad captain Pacioretty, and everyone else who has been overly criticized during this stretch. If this was the ceiling for this team, i'd be all for blowing it up, but it is not, it is capable of much more than this. I simply think we should at least give it more than 5 weeks without its MVP and true Leader to prove itself. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 The one thing they have proven over the past several years is when the going gets tough, pretty much everyone disappears. Price and Gallagher and Subban to some extend are exceptions. They have no higher gear or big window without Price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davehab Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 although I think its time for Therren to go, I just dont see it happening until the off season. I would go for Guy Boucher personally. Time to get some young blood in the coaches chair Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 You did see Bouche's team play in Tampa didn't you? How did that tenure go, so well he is appealing option? Or just that he is French and therefore one of few legit options? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 He also had a lot more talent in Tampa as well MT has done well with the talent he has. Not his fault he has no offensive talent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 Boucher was laughed out of the National Hockey League, and now people want him back. Frankly, if we're talking about hiring coaches who flopped their way out of the league, I'd prefer Carbo. At least he sounds quite intelligent on RDS, bleeds Habs red, and maybe learned something on his first go-round. But the best move would indeed be to wait until the end of the season, at which point Vigneault might be available. Failing that, there's Crawford. Like I noted in the other thread, when Pittsburgh lost Crosby to catastrophic injury, they kept winning. The same was true last season when Calgary lost Giordano. It is legitimate to ask why Therrien has not been able to find a similar recipe when HIS best player went down. But you need to have a strong replacement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illWill Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 My post never suggested not to do anything at all, it suggested to hold on tight until the deals that aren't asking for outrageous returns start to file in, not inactivity but patience. You really believe Bergevin is sitting at home binge watching Game of Thrones instead of calling a bunch of different teams about his needs? Come on now, we are not the only ones that realize we need a secondary scoring threat on this team, everyone on that management floor is aware of it, and likely trying to do something about it, just not at all costs, and certainly not a cost we would end up regretting, unlike most people around here. Anaheim has way more reason to succumb to panic than us, they were actually a true contender, a supposed powerhouse and they have been faltering all season yet despite that have not fired everyone and traded everyone yet. Why? because you can't just be short sighted in this league, you can't fall into a hole where all you see is the last 4 weeks and base all your next moves on that. They have the same team as last year, no one complained about it then, we have the same team as last year, and although we needed some offense, we managed to stay among the top teams. That was with big bad coach Therrien, lackluster bad captain Pacioretty, and everyone else who has been overly criticized during this stretch. If this was the ceiling for this team, i'd be all for blowing it up, but it is not, it is capable of much more than this. I simply think we should at least give it more than 5 weeks without its MVP and true Leader to prove itself. great post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 For the most part the goaltending hasn't been the problem. It's the crappy defence and zero offence that has been the problem. I think Condon for the most part played about as well as Talbot did when lundquist went down last year. The problem has been the team in front of him. I do see a coaching issue, with disclaimer that I've hated MT with a passion since his first stint. Anytime our cheap GM has brought in a skilled guy MT has always gone with his plumbers and gave much more role to the plumbers than the skilled players that we traded for or brought up from the minors. Whether it was vanek, Semin, or young callous like Hudon, having them on the 4th line, while dale frogging Weisse is on the PP makes no sense. When Weisse was scoring goals that no NHL goalie should have let in, MT looked like a genius. Now that Weisse is having his regular success against NHL goalies, you have to ask why thevfriggin hell does he get the ice time he does. Boucher was laughed out of the National Hockey League, and now people want him back. Frankly, if we're talking about hiring coaches who flopped their way out of the league, I'd prefer Carbo. At least he sounds quite intelligent on RDS, bleeds Habs red, and maybe learned something on his first go-round. But the best move would indeed be to wait until the end of the season, at which point Vigneault might be available. Failing that, there's Crawford. Like I noted in the other thread, when Pittsburgh lost Crosby to catastrophic injury, they kept winning. The same was true last season when Calgary lost Giordano. It is legitimate to ask why Therrien has not been able to find a similar recipe when HIS best player went down. But you need to have a strong replacement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habs rule Posted January 10, 2016 Author Share Posted January 10, 2016 My post never suggested not to do anything at all, it suggested to hold on tight until the deals that aren't asking for outrageous returns start to file in, not inactivity but patience. You really believe Bergevin is sitting at home binge watching Game of Thrones instead of calling a bunch of different teams about his needs? Come on now, we are not the only ones that realize we need a secondary scoring threat on this team, everyone on that management floor is aware of it, and likely trying to do something about it, just not at all costs, and certainly not a cost we would end up regretting, unlike most people around here. Anaheim has way more reason to succumb to panic than us, they were actually a true contender, a supposed powerhouse and they have been faltering all season yet despite that have not fired everyone and traded everyone yet. Why? because you can't just be short sighted in this league, you can't fall into a hole where all you see is the last 4 weeks and base all your next moves on that. They have the same team as last year, no one complained about it then, we have the same team as last year, and although we needed some offense, we managed to stay among the top teams. That was with big bad coach Therrien, lackluster bad captain Pacioretty, and everyone else who has been overly criticized during this stretch. If this was the ceiling for this team, i'd be all for blowing it up, but it is not, it is capable of much more than this. I simply think we should at least give it more than 5 weeks without its MVP and true Leader to prove itself. Generally speaking I agree with what you say, however this team is developing a loser's attitude. There are no excuses? Holy crap Batman there are more excuses coming out of that room than enough. We had Patches popping off, now we have PK saying he isn't f--king paid to score f--king goals. Where does he get that idea from? I will guess it is a big fat scotch drinking coach. This team is in major trouble, the playoffs are looking like a dream. If we don't do something about the losers attitude, we are going to have to blow it up and start over. MB has some decisions to make. You can't fire the team.... We can't wait for Price to come back, cause he don't score goals either. Goal tending is not the problem. Offence defence and coaching are. Everybody who thinks that Price coming back is going to turn this team into a scoring juggernaut had better rethink that one. By the time he gets back we will not be in the playoff picture, so much for "this team is a lot more than Price". Brave words no substance. I know MB is doing his best to get some help but he needs to do something and damn soon, in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 When MT first came in the mantra was no excuses. Well almost every friggin night for the past two friggin 2 months, all i've heard from Mr. Michel no friggin excuses Therrien is how well the other goalie played!!! What happened to no friggin excuses???? the first guy making excuses every game is the coach which supports the losers attitude on the team! Generally speaking I agree with what you say, however this team is developing a loser's attitude. There are no excuses? Holy crap Batman there are more excuses coming out of that room than enough. We had Patches popping off, now we have PK saying he isn't f--king paid to score f--king goals. Where does he get that idea from? I will guess it is a big fat scotch drinking coach. This team is in major trouble, the playoffs are looking like a dream. If we don't do something about the losers attitude, we are going to have to blow it up and start over. MB has some decisions to make. You can't fire the team.... We can't wait for Price to come back, cause he don't score goals either. Goal tending is not the problem. Offence defence and coaching are. Everybody who thinks that Price coming back is going to turn this team into a scoring juggernaut had better rethink that one. By the time he gets back we will not be in the playoff picture, so much for "this team is a lot more than Price". Brave words no substance. I know MB is doing his best to get some help but he needs to do something and damn soon, in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Link67 Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 Generally speaking I agree with what you say, however this team is developing a loser's attitude. There are no excuses? Holy crap Batman there are more excuses coming out of that room than enough. We had Patches popping off, now we have PK saying he isn't f--king paid to score f--king goals. Where does he get that idea from? I will guess it is a big fat scotch drinking coach. This team is in major trouble, the playoffs are looking like a dream. If we don't do something about the losers attitude, we are going to have to blow it up and start over. MB has some decisions to make. You can't fire the team.... We can't wait for Price to come back, cause he don't score goals either. Goal tending is not the problem. Offence defence and coaching are. Everybody who thinks that Price coming back is going to turn this team into a scoring juggernaut had better rethink that one. By the time he gets back we will not be in the playoff picture, so much for "this team is a lot more than Price". Brave words no substance. I know MB is doing his best to get some help but he needs to do something and damn soon, in my opinion. They didn't score much last season, the difference is Price, it isn't just his performance in goal, it is the way the team plays when he is in front of the net. His presence does something, something that doesn't show through on a stat sheet, it allows the guys in front of him, all of them, to play with poise, and confidence. Sure they won't be an offensive juggernaut just because he is there, but they weren't last year, and the spot we ended up in wasn't too shabby. Condon has been playing some very solid hockey for his last 4 or 5 games now, but the fact remains despite his individual performance, the team doesn't have that thing it had early on this year, or last year, when Price was there. It was a thing that had these guys believing in themselves so much, they actually did believe they were more than just Price, and yes it is clearly not the case, but the fact it had them thinking so, is a great indication of what i'm talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habs rule Posted January 11, 2016 Author Share Posted January 11, 2016 They didn't score much last season, the difference is Price, it isn't just his performance in goal, it is the way the team plays when he is in front of the net. His presence does something, something that doesn't show through on a stat sheet, it allows the guys in front of him, all of them, to play with poise, and confidence. Sure they won't be an offensive juggernaut just because he is there, but they weren't last year, and the spot we ended up in wasn't too shabby. Condon has been playing some very solid hockey for his last 4 or 5 games now, but the fact remains despite his individual performance, the team doesn't have that thing it had early on this year, or last year, when Price was there. It was a thing that had these guys believing in themselves so much, they actually did believe they were more than just Price, and yes it is clearly not the case, but the fact it had them thinking so, is a great indication of what i'm talking about. What I agree with here is that the lack of scoring is not a short time thing, it is long term. So the team plays better when the REAL captain comes back. That is not an endorsement of the GM and certainly not of the coach. You have been drinking the koolaid. This team needs a shakeup, we need offence. we need a new coach. The p/p is crap again, the defence are playing like goofs, and we have no offence. We are going to miss the playoffs, and that is not acceptable. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davehab Posted January 11, 2016 Share Posted January 11, 2016 You did see Bouche's team play in Tampa didn't you? How did that tenure go, so well he is appealing option? Or just that he is French and therefore one of few legit options? He did really well actually, he led a very mediocre team to the conference finals. (This was a year or two before we swept them out of the first round) Well it depends on what kind of coach you want, if you want a coach that sticks to the game plan even if it is obviously not working then Therrien is your guy. The system that Therrien employs calls for his players to skate, alot. (Backchecking, forechecking, and pressure all over the ice). Its a great system for a month or two, but is simply unsustainable over the entire season. That is why this team is fading now and has faded in the second/third round of the playoffs in the last two years. I once heard Babcock say that this system is very hard on the players speaking specifically to Montreal. But if you would like some creativity and a coach that tries to get his players motivated by understanding them, then Boucher is not a bad Idea. Everytime Bouchers name gets brought up some mentions the 1-3-1 and that game against Philly. Say what you will but it worked. I should qualify this by saying that I don't like the 1-3-1 system either but it just speaks to his ability to think outside the box. I remember many positive interviews from players about Boucher and his coaching style, he is a coach that player like to play for....maybe its time for that kind of coach. just because I'm advocating for Boucher right now doesn't mean he is the only other coach out there. I'm just saying we need a change and could do a lot worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted January 11, 2016 Share Posted January 11, 2016 Bouchers 1-4 system isnt exactly what i want to see... not something i think will work with this roster. You also talk about the system working cause he made the conference finals. Ok great. Guess what therrien did that too, and might have gone farther without a price/kreider collision. Boucher had 3 years in tampa. The 2nd and 3rd years were regression big time. The third year in particular a massive one, in fact id call it a disaster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted January 11, 2016 Share Posted January 11, 2016 Bouchers 1-4 system isnt exactly what i want to see... not something i think will work with this roster. You also talk about the system working cause he made the conference finals. Ok great. Guess what therrien did that too, and might have gone farther without a price/kreider collision. Boucher had 3 years in tampa. The 2nd and 3rd years were regression big time. The third year in particular a massive one, in fact id call it a disaster. He's also mediocre in Europe, whereas Marc Crawford has been very successful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted January 11, 2016 Share Posted January 11, 2016 Ok so is Crawford and ? to choose from. You are complaining Therrien sticks to game plan, while many keep hammering on him and his blender? So he really cant win with fans can he. When he has all that firepower up front, he just cant get them to score more, if we only had Babcock (who I think won his last playoff game a decade ago). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted January 11, 2016 Share Posted January 11, 2016 Most of the criticisms of MT are ill-founded IMHO (e.g., the 'blender' - 90% of NHL coaches do that; when are fans going to figure that out??). However, the defensive breakdowns that have plagued this team for the last few weeks are a legitimate source of criticism. And so is the ongoing disaster of the power-play, which has been dragging on for so long that there can be no further excuses. I'd be interested to see the data on even-strength goals scored v.s. PP goals-scored during this slump. It would not shock me to learn that we're actually doing OK 5-on-5 and that it's the PP that's killing us offensively. Here's a quote from Todd's latest: Tomas Plekanec has one goal in his last 27 games, Lars Eller has one goal in his last 24 games, David Desharnais has one goal in his last 21 games and Tomas Fleischmann was made a healthy scratch the last two games after scoring one goal in 19 games. Alex Galchenyuk has three goals in his last 18 games. Undrafted rookie Daniel Carr has five goals in 16 games, two more than Devante Smith-Pelly has in 31 games. Todd goes on to blame the players and exonerate the coach. Fair enough. But it's equally fair to say that a coach's job is to coax the maximum production from the talent he has. Even frigging Lars Eller is better than one goal in 24 games, never mind all those other guys. These are legitimate coaching issues. That's not necessarily to say I want MT fired (personally, I'd wait until the off-season, when more options will become available), but the time might be coming to get a new voice in here, a fresh take. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted January 11, 2016 Share Posted January 11, 2016 And so is the ongoing disaster of the power-play, which has been dragging on for so long that there can be no further excuses. I'd be interested to see the data on even-strength goals scored v.s. PP goals-scored during this slump. It would not shock me to learn that we're actually doing OK 5-on-5 and that it's the PP that's killing us offensively. The interesting thing with the PP is that they've made changes already. Lacroix ran it last year, now Daigneault is with Craig Ramsay brought in to help as well. They've tried different formations too, just nothing seems to work (at least for any notable period of time). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habs rule Posted January 11, 2016 Author Share Posted January 11, 2016 The interesting thing with the PP is that they've made changes already. Lacroix ran it last year, now Daigneault is with Craig Ramsay brought in to help as well. They've tried different formations too, just nothing seems to work (at least for any notable period of time). The p/p seems to work for short periods of time. I often wonder if that it is because it actually is working, or if the other team's pk just isn't all that good. They are scoring at the blazing clip of 1.89 goals per game, even Carey needs more support than that. I still think there is a loser's attitude developing, where it is ok to lose as long as you did your best. Kind of like peewee. Only pee wees don't get paid 9 mill a season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted January 11, 2016 Share Posted January 11, 2016 The p/p seems to work for short periods of time. I often wonder if that it is because it actually is working, or if the other team's pk just isn't all that good. They are scoring at the blazing clip of 1.89 goals per game, even Carey needs more support than that. I still think there is a loser's attitude developing, where it is ok to lose as long as you did your best. Kind of like peewee. Only pee wees don't get paid 9 mill a season. I rather think that's what's happening is that the team is actually starting to internalize that it's not very good without Carey Price. The swagger and optimism that used to characterize guys like Subban and Patches - the same guys who cajoled Petry into signing with us, in the belief that this team was Cup-bound sooner or later - is in the process of dissolving as guys look around and go, 'gee...maybe it's true. We're a crummy team with a great goalie.' What drives me crazy is that it doesn't have to be this way. So many of our FW are playing WAY below their career offensive norms that this cannot possibly be taken as representative of what this team actually is. But this, I think, is what's begun to happen within the team itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted January 11, 2016 Share Posted January 11, 2016 Nobody on Montreal that's making 9mill has that attitude. I can guarantee that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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