Jump to content

If you could undo one (& only 1) of MB's moves, which would it be?


Psycing

Recommended Posts

This question was posed on TSN 690 last week and I thought it might be an interesting one to discuss here.

Very simply:

If you could undo one of GM Marc Bergevin's moves since he was hired, what would it be? Please try to keep it to only 1.

Examples:

  • Michel Therrien hiring
  • Gorges extension
  • Paciorety extension
  • Emelin extension
  • Desharnais extension
  • P.K. Subban bridge contract extension
  • Trade: Cole for Ryder
  • Trade: 7th 2014 + Lefebvre for Parros
  • Trade: Kristo for Thomas
  • Murray UFA signing
  • Bouillon UFA signing
  • Briere UFA signing
  • Drafting Galchenyuk in 1st round
  • Drafting McCarron in 1st round

If I missed any - don't hesitate to mention it and I'll try to add it here. Forum moderators feel free to do so as well if I don't get to it right away.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'd say the Subban bridge contract if I'm limited to one.

But honestly I think there are 8 I'd undo and IMO an 8 out of 14 ratio against is pretty lousy. To be fair, the list does not include the other off ice positive changes. It also excluded some obvious misses, such as not doing everything possible and rolling out the red carpet for Larry Robinson, or trying to sign Jagr.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It has to tell you something about your GM when this type of question arises. I really have my doubts about Bergevin.

If you're expecting perfection from your GM or to agree with every decision, you're doing it wrong.

Some of those decisions people disagree with and they are flat out wrong on. Erik Cole is absolute garbage in Dallas but people pine for him having his last good season in the NHL on this team. It was a fantastic trade. We got rid of a massive contract right when a player was falling apart. So fantastic that people still forget we got a third round pick out of it too. Connor Crisp will probably play while Dallas still has Cole on their salary due to a buyout.

To answer the question, Bouillon. It's such a small issue too, but Cube should have been told to go elsewhere. I'd much rather see Pateryn getting minutes than him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Picking McCarron jumps out at me; but will go with hiring 5 francophone coachs of the 6 in Hamilton/Montreal. If someone can show me hirings were based on coaching ability, best available choices and best for long term success of on-ice product and not strictly language, than I would have a bit more warm and fuzzy feeling and more confidence in the GM.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would say at this point, the signing of Briere would be my one to take back, but like others have said, there are a few I would take back, but there is time left for these moves to turn good.... or at least not so bad. The one year deals, meh.... they will be over next year, stop gap depth signings for a semi re-building team is the way I see it.

To be fair however, Bergevin said it would take time to form the right mix of players, and it seems that the signings of Boullion, Murray and Briere, as well as DD were to give us some depth, until our younger players/prospects can mature. We did finish second in the East last year, so a total collapse may have happened without signing depth that we have, especially if we had a lot of injuries. We aren't in a bad spot in the standings, and it's Cube, Briere, Murray,DD, Gionta etc, that have been helping(or not) but they have been playing, allowing us to not expose prospects that aren't ready.

Bergevin said he has a plan, and is trying to make us bigger, grittier, and a character team, and he also said it takes time. We as fans should be a little more patient considering where we are in the standings, the cup isn't won by Xmas break, and it certainly hasn't been as painful as the year before the lock out. Bergevin has made some moves, and thus far, yeah, some don't look so good, but he inherited a total disaster of a team, and in one short season, and a half of this one, some of us fans are thinking we should be a contender tomorrow..... unrealistic expectations I think.

Really this trade deadline is going to show us the metal of our GM, and whether he is going to do a good job or not. I see Price, Galchenyuk, Subban, Gallagher, Eller(because Plec will bring more in a trade), in that order, as the core of players we have that are not touchable in a trade at this point in the Habs history, I'm serious, and everybody else should be considered to change the make up of this team, to a team that is at least big enough, smart enough, and fierce enough to compete.

We don't know what the next month of the season will bring, but I'm betting on injuries as the smurfs and veterans wear down, then we will see where we are with our prospect pool, and then maybe it will be clearer what direction Bergevin will take with this team, and I'm betting that Bergevin doesn't waste the assets of our expiring contracts or veterans that may bring us prospects or a player to better our top 6 forwards going forward to the next 2-3 seasons.

Patience until the trade deadline my friends.......

Link to comment
Share on other sites

DON makes a perceptive point about the coaches in Hamilton. I don't really follow the Dogs, but from what I gather neither Beaulieu nor Tinordi have progressed as hoped this season. It is unsettling to me that Pateryn has surpassed the former two on the organization depth chart. We should have learned from the Gainey years the overwhelming importance of making sure that you have excellent mentorship and coaching in your "feeder" system. All three Bulldogs coaches have valid credentials (Lebeau has the thinnest resumé) but it seems far from self-evident that they are doing an elite job. Hopefully Bergevin will be as ruthless as he must be in his evaluation of their performance as developers of young talent. If his choice of coaches was a mistake, it is one that's going to haunt us for years to come unless fixed. (Maybe hire Guy Boucher, ha ha :lol:)

Other than that, I actually don't think Bergevin has made any big mistakes and it seems to me to be just hyper-critical internet fandom to argue that he has. Although it may be worth asking whether this team would not be better off with Erik Cole as an admittedly overpaid big body third-liner than with the useless piece of crap Hero of the Quebec Nation. I rather think we would be, to be honest. And in that sense what looked like a clever bit of GMing - trading Cole just as he ceased to be a top-6 forward - has arguably become a mistake, at least in pure in hockey terms.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Other than that, I actually don't think Bergevin has made any big mistakes and it seems to me to be just hyper-critical internet fandom to argue that he has. Although it may be worth asking whether this team would not be better off with Erik Cole as an admittedly overpaid big body third-liner than with the useless piece of crap Hero of the Quebec Nation. I rather think we would be, to be honest. And in that sense what looked like a clever bit of GMing - trading Cole just as he ceased to be a top-6 forward - has arguably become a mistake, at least in pure in hockey terms.

That makes... absolutely no sense.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why, you prefer Briere to Cole in the bottom-6 at about the same cap hit until 2015? Not sure why that would be.

I'll retract because for some reason I thought you meant David Desharnais and his extension.

That said, Briere hasn't received special treatment in Montreal. He's been scratched, played on the fourth line, stapled to the bench after bad shifts and bad penalties, etc. Only Bournival and White have been on the ice less for forwards playing more than 25 games so far. The idea he's a hero of the Quebec Nation is bizarre. He's honestly been underutilized when you look at how terrible the Canadiens have been collectively at getting the puck into the opposing zone and Briere is actually one of the best on the team doing it.

He's in Therrien's dog house but anyone trying to write up RDS conspiracies doesn't want to consider that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh, I've been derisively calling him "Hero of the Quebec Nation" because of the media/fan attitude toward him when he was first acquired, and because the ONLY reason he is a Hab right now is because he is French. I don't mean to imply he receives preferential treatment by Therrien - to MT's credit, he doesn't.

My point here is that Cole would be better than Briere. Somehow MB turned a nifty bit of GMing (getting rid of Cole) into dross (a player who adds less value to our lineup than Cole would). Even that, though, isn't a mistake with any longer-term implications. MB's mistakes have been of the thoroughly minor variety.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Until PK signs, the biggest mistake could very well be his bridge contract. What if he takes a short deal with an eye on getting a huge UFA payday with a higher cap? As it stands, he might be looking at 8.5 million per year, which is 3 million more than he was asking for, or the equivalent of not being able to land a big player.

Looking over the list of moves to review, the proportion of negative to positive is disappointing. If we get PK signed long-term, I might say Briere is the worst move, just because everyone knew how bad of a signing it was on day -4. Desharnais doesn't have a NTC, at least.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is no question in my mind that signing Briere was the biggest and I hope always will be the biggest mistake that MT has made. An over the hill oft injured smurf is not what this team needed. I would rather we signed nobody rather than him. Of course that is what we got.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There can only be one response: Danny Briere.

Ten points in thirty games and three of those are from empty nets.

Benching the youngsters in favor of him.

Any line he's on has no forechecker in a dump and chase system.

Basically making every line he's on worse.

Everything about him sucks.

This is the one decision from Bergevin that there is no devil's advocate. He is awful. If you think he's coming alive in the playoffs, you're mistaken, his last great performance was in the Day of Halak.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I still don't get why the habs didn't try to lock up Subban for 12 years PRIOR to the lockout. Even the hawkish owners were making use of the loophole, with front loaded contracts.

My ordering of MB's mistakes would be:

1) not signing PK long-term

2) not rolling out the red carpet for Robinson

3) not signing Jagr last year AND this year

2) signing Briere

3) resigning DD - with the falling cap, this was the one year there was no hurry to resign players

4)resigning Bouillon - same reason as above

5) trading Kristo

6) MT hiring

7) Mcarrrin draft pick unless this was a Timmons choice

8) parros trade

Until PK signs, the biggest mistake could very well be his bridge contract. What if he takes a short deal with an eye on getting a huge UFA payday with a higher cap? As it stands, he might be looking at 8.5 million per year, which is 3 million more than he was asking for, or the equivalent of not being able to land a big player.

Looking over the list of moves to review, the proportion of negative to positive is disappointing. If we get PK signed long-term, I might say Briere is the worst move, just because everyone knew how bad of a signing it was on day -4. Desharnais doesn't have a NTC, at least.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As I read recently, MB has been the GM in charge of Les Habitants for a grand total of 86 games. Not saying you are wrong Habs 29, but it is significantly too soon to evaluate any of those decisions--even the Briere signing, which is not looking good at the moment. Ask me at the end of the season-- or even next season-- and I will be able to evaluate which decisions are mistakes and which are not. At this point, for me, he was a finalist for GM of the year last season for a reason.

In short, I think MB has done a fine job. While I am unsure which of his moves will be the best or worst going forward, unlike some of his predecessors, his moves don't immediately reek of mediocrity, desperation and /or failure.

To answer the question:--in hindsight--

1. I would have preferred PK locked up long term although in fairness their is no way of knowing whether or not the bridge contract was the right move--in principle I still like the idea of the bridge contract ethos, but I am not certain if it provides maximum utility in this situation

2. Briere-- in fairness, I am still arguing that we cannot judge this deal yet, but the early returns are far from favorable. I do think that Briere might thrive with stable linemates. As it stands, MT has little choice but to keep juggling hoping someone will click.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The only move on MB's list with potential long-term implications is the Subban contract. And even there, I seem to remember dlbalr - was it him? - providing a mathematical analysis of the supposed cap savings by locking him up then, and they turn out to be surprisingly minor. (As for the fear that Subban will walk away, that's just more Habs fan paranoia IMHO). I also think it's risky to attack Bergevin for "not" doing things like signing Jagr or Robinson, even though I've indulged in the same line of argument myself at times. I agree that either of those would have been great acquisitions, but we don't really know if those guys would have come here. I think Jagr would have, personally, but doubt that the same is true of Big Bird, who likes low-pressure markets.

Even if all of these are genuine mistakes, none have serious ramifications for our prospect of becoming a contender. And that, I think, is what Bergevin's long game is about. We are arguing, in effect, over minutiae.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I still don't get why the habs didn't try to lock up Subban for 12 years PRIOR to the lockout. Even the hawkish owners were making use of the loophole, with front loaded contracts.

My ordering of MB's mistakes would be:

1) not signing PK long-term

2) not rolling out the red carpet for Robinson

3) not signing Jagr last year AND this year

2) signing Briere

3) resigning DD - with the falling cap, this was the one year there was no hurry to resign players

4)resigning Bouillon - same reason as above

5) trading Kristo

6) MT hiring

7) Mcarrrin draft pick unless this was a Timmons choice

8) parros trade

Some of your statements I agree with but there are some that are not quite correct...

2 robinson ... we don't know if he wanted to come here at all, and we dont know if he could have worked for MT, I think hiring asst coaches is primarily the head coaches job so I can't really blame MB for that one.

1 Subban you and I have always disagreed with on this one, I hate long term deals for anyone, the future is just too unpredictable, and I think it was Brian who showed the difference in dollars overall between long term and bridge is negligible.

2 (?) signing briere I agree wholeheartedly

3 re-signing DD well he had negotiation rights and with his numbers at that time he would have probably got more. MB went with what he knew that the guy had very good numbers and was rights eligible not really an error except in hind sight.

The rest are just the way things are Meh, MT will get fired, Parros will retire,Kristo ,who knows? Cube is a fill in, as we can see. Mccarron is a wait and see.

All is not lost yet. He is still a very new GM hard to beat him up too much at this point, he deserves a little more leeway. Imho.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Trading Kristo for Thomas will in all likelihood be as costly to the organization as shipping D'Agostini out for Palushaj.

In other words, not at all but you're more than welcome to waste emotion on it.

Well, the "big deal" about that is Dagostini is actually in the NHL, a waiver pick up, but he's not a total loser like Palushaj. I can see a similar situation brewing, where we lost him "because we couldn't find the room." Sounds to me like Briere, the guy we're paying 4 million in a top-9 role to come alive for our yearly first round exit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would say the Briere signing and extending DD as the biggest fumble. Not because I dislike Briere, but there is no room for Briere and Desharnais on the same team. Briere is a centerman. He has not played his position at all, nor has he been played with complimentary players. My beef is the combination of signing Briere and extending DD.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The only move on MB's list with potential long-term implications is the Subban contract. And even there, I seem to remember dlbalr - was it him? - providing a mathematical analysis of the supposed cap savings by locking him up then, and they turn out to be surprisingly minor. (As for the fear that Subban will walk away, that's just more Habs fan paranoia IMHO). I also think it's risky to attack Bergevin for "not" doing things like signing Jagr or Robinson, even though I've indulged in the same line of argument myself at times. I agree that either of those would have been great acquisitions, but we don't really know if those guys would have come here. I think Jagr would have, personally, but doubt that the same is true of Big Bird, who likes low-pressure markets.

Even if all of these are genuine mistakes, none have serious ramifications for our prospect of becoming a contender. And that, I think, is what Bergevin's long game is about. We are arguing, in effect, over minutiae.

As was mentioned with dlbalr's calculations, the bridge deal provides savings in the first two years when we're rebuilding, and we pay through the nose when we're trying to contend. Plus the pressure of being an 8 million dollar man in Montreal could have been averted. This is more than minutiae for the long game. As for the other moves, I agree that they don't hamper us after next year, but they indicate poor judgment. I hope Bergevin can learn from his mistakes and do better.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Desharnais' extension, but that comes with the benefit of hindsight. While pretty much nobody was in love with the Briere signing as soon as it was announced, there was at least an argument that Desharnais' extension was good value when it was announced. But then he stopped being a good hockey player. And then we signed Briere to replace him... except he wasn't replaced. And now he's almost impossible to move.

So we have an untradeable, diminutive, soft, offensive-only but at least capable (but only when paired with the best winger on the team), non-playoff performing centreman locked in for 3 more seasons on a team that doesn't need that kind of player at all.

Oh goody.

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...