Is it time to trade Markov?

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Well, I certainly hope they're listening to offers for Markov. They should always be listening to offers, for almost anyone, really (except Subban). What I further hope is that they're listening with a creative, open mind and thinking seriously about the medium term, not just saying, "well, you'd better knock my socks off." I still find myself not fully trusting this management team to make bold moves to take us to another level.

[Neech]

I still find myself not fully trusting this management team to make bold moves to take us to another level.

Here we are, Cucumber. Last week it was you rebuking my fading confidence in Bergevin, saying that only in October will a picture of his performance be clear. Is this a cry for attention, a request for someone else to placate your doubts?

This is what happens when we only have minor moves of mediocre quality to go on; they just sit and fester and look worse each time we consider them, but they're not significant enough on their own. I too would like a bold move, but I'm also leery of Bergevin's judgment.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Here we are, Cucumber. Last week it was you rebuking my fading confidence in Bergevin, saying that only in October will a picture of his performance be clear. Is this a cry for attention, a request for someone else to placate your doubts?

This is what happens when we only have minor moves of mediocre quality to go on; they just sit and fester and look worse each time we consider them, but they're not significant enough on their own. I too would like a bold move, but I'm also leery of Bergevin's judgment.

Hey, man, it's a matter of degree. The Diaz dump, plus ongoing rumours of our not properly shopping guys around, along with continued rumblings about tensions with Subban, all combine to make me uneasy about whether this management team gets it. But it's one thing to say I'm not "fully confident" in these guys, another to declaim with certainty that Bergevin is a do-nothing shmoe. I took you to be fairly clear-cut in your attack on Bergie. In my case, it's less a definitive sentiment and certain amount of anxiety, based on my agreeing with you that these rumours plus minor moves are less than reassuring. My earlier claim that we have to wait until this year's deadline, and probably until October, to come to a more definitive assessment of what we have in Bergevin remains completely correct.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

Well, I certainly hope they're listening to offers for Markov. They should always be listening to offers, for almost anyone, really (except Subban).

Every GM listens to offers. It's important to understand what a journalist really means when he writes that. Or at least, an insider posing as a journalist. He means offers are being made and Bergevin is discussing them with the GMs. Not that a GM goes "Hey what about Markov?" and Bergevin goes, "LALALA NOT LISTENING" and then hangs up. Not all GM's "consider offers" but all GM's "listen".

If I was GM of even Pittsburgh and a GM wanted to tell me his offer for Sidney Crosby, I'm going to listen. I'm probably going to take it with a grain of salt because I have zero intention of trading Crosby, but I'm at least going to listen. Because in reality, that GM might reveal someone he wants to give up, and we can change the conversation to the player they want to give up.

I recall last year about the Philadelphia/Montreal rumour, there was at least a dozen journalists who spun the story incorrectly. The original story was simple. Holmgren said to Bergevin, "Is Subban available?" and Bergevin replied, "Is Couturier available?" and that was it. The whole point of it was gauging availability of a player. Bergevin was really saying, "Subban is about as available as Couturier is, because I know how much you covet him". And Holmgren got the message. Had he said, "Is Talbot available?" it would have opened a bigger discussion.

I don't think enough consideration into the situation Montreal is in right now is given for Bergevin. We're slumping so people are ready to unload every veteran we have and trade every slacker around. But what if the returns are low? What if Trevor Timmins is telling Bergevin that the draft doesn't look strong to him? What if Bergevin is waiting for a bigger deal? Not only that, but the whole reason there's so much heat right now is that people expected Montreal to build on last year. Not only that, but Bergevin is probably looking at his coaching staff and wondering how much of the problem is the coaches and how much is the players. That's a difficult question to answer. He could dump Therrien for the best ANGLO coach available. What if the team doesn't listen to the best coach available? What if this is a locker issue and not a coaching issue?

I mean there's a thousand things but hey, it's simple when you're on the other side. I see how weak the East is and say Montreal is better to keep certain pieces together instead of trading because I value Galchenyuk and Gallagher seeing second round action more than a second round pick from dealing a guy like Gionta who is good for us in the playoffs. Removing Markov, I don't see the defence holding up that much at all. Are we ready to bring in a free agent to possibly replace Markov and they might not, or leaving the defence as it is and praying a prospect steps up?

I understand not immediately pulling the trigger on names like Markov and Gionta, especially if you feel this is still a playoff bound team in a weak division. My only grumble right now is letting Bourque play on this team anymore. I'd be looking at waivers the moment Moen or Galchenyuk is healthy.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Great post, Machine. I agree with pretty much everything you say.

[habs rule]

Pretty much everything you said is true. Except for that part about an ANGLO coach. That ain't happening. However the GM who has said "we are always looking to improve our team everyday" or words to that effect, has not been doing much in the trade dept. The trades he has made have been of a very safe, fringe type trade. We need to be looking at trading the vets that are close to their best before date, so we can build the cup winner. This team has had the problem of not being able to score for a number of years, this needs to be fixed. If we don't trade players who will be of little use in 3 years, (the cup year) then their will be no cup because we still have the old vets who no longer can play. You don't wait till a guy is completely used up to trade him or he has no value. You have to bring in players who will benefit the 3 year idea. So therefore we need to be looking to move Gionta, Markov, Gorges DD, Briere. I do't say we are going to move them all this week but lets be on the look out for the opportunity to improve our long term chances. I hope MB is doing that and have no reason to believe he is not except for the lack of activity, and like all Habs fans I am impatient.

[Neech]

Hey, man, it's a matter of degree. The Diaz dump, plus ongoing rumours of our not properly shopping guys around, along with continued rumblings about tensions with Subban, all combine to make me uneasy about whether this management team gets it. But it's one thing to say I'm not "fully confident" in these guys, another to declaim with certainty that Bergevin is a do-nothing shmoe. I took you to be fairly clear-cut in your attack on Bergie. In my case, it's less a definitive sentiment and certain amount of anxiety, based on my agreeing with you that these rumours plus minor moves are less than reassuring. My earlier claim that we have to wait until this year's deadline, and probably until October, to come to a more definitive assessment of what we have in Bergevin remains completely correct.

Yeah, mid-July or so will probably be enough for us to give a definitive thumbs up or down. There was perhaps more extrapolation on my part about what Bergie being a schmoe means for the organization, but my final judgment is still withheld. Another thing that I find worrying besides his uninspiring player transactions is his managerial choices. Therrien is what he is, no one really expects him to be here long term. But in Hamilton, I wish that we could scour all applicants for talent and original thinking and get someone like Guy Boucher or Jon Cooper. Lefebvre looks like a dead end, and that could hurt our player development, which is vital to our purported plan to build through the draft.

My biggest hope for Bergevin is that he can adjust his outlook. I hope we don't end up like Calgary where we just get more and more grit players in a futile attempt to out-grit everyone. We have to be able to draw from all lines of thought and create a balance.

[Commandant]

For those who want to move Markov.... who is your number 2 defenceman next year.

[DON]

For those who want to move Markov.... who is your number 2 defenceman next year.

Murray of course.

Gorges is #2 right now.

So more like who will play on 2nd pairing with Emelin/Beaulieu.

I imagine Markov isnt going anywhere for 3 years (even though I wouldn't want to give him more than 2).

[dlbalr]

There are reports that former Hab Sergei Berezin is Markov's new agent. There's something I didn't see coming, I had no idea Berezin was an agent.

[Commandant]

Murray of course.

Gorges is #2 right now.

So more like who will play on 2nd pairing with Emelin/Beaulieu.

I imagine Markov isnt going anywhere for 3 years (even though I wouldn't want to give him more than 2).

Gorges may play with SUbban, but that doesn't make him a number 2.

A team doesn't always line up

1 - 2

3 - 4

5 - 6

due to special teams time, Markov still plays more minutes and is more valuable than Gorges.

[DON]

Gorges may play with SUbban, but that doesn't make him a number 2.

A team doesn't always line up

1 - 2

3 - 4

5 - 6

due to special teams time, Markov still plays more minutes and is more valuable than Gorges.

You said who will replace him.

so 76-26 would be top pairing and 2nd could be Bufuglien and Yemelin, with 40-6 as 3rd pairing again and that would be fine by me.

[habs rule]

There are reports that former Hab Sergei Berezin is Markov's new agent. There's something I didn't see coming, I had no idea Berezin was an agent.

I cant find anything that says he is an agent. Is Markov his one and only client? Or is he just a friend?

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Commandant asks a good question. But here are some other questions:

1. Is Markov a bona-fide #2 on a strong team? Or is he more of a PP specialist on a strong team at this juncture? If the latter, then yes, maybe you still have to re-sign him - but let's at least be honest that we're doing so under duress, for lack of better options. Hardly a ringing endorsement.

2. If the goal is to win a Cup eventually, and you're signing Markov as some sort of patch-up job to tide you over until the next wave arrives, is it indeed the case that we have the nucleus of an eventually Cup-worthy defence corps in this organization? Because if we don't, then shouldn't we be looking at shipping Markov out for high return at the deadline, to help us achieve the goal of contention in the medium-term?

3. If you're signing Markov just because there's nobody better out there, what is the upper limit of what you're willing to pay him?

I'm not asking these questions polemically. Just trying to think through this whole business.

[habs rule]

Commandant asks a good question. But here are some other questions:

2. If the goal is to win a Cup eventually, and you're signing Markov as some sort of patch-up job to tide you over until the next wave arrives, is it indeed the case that we have the nucleus of an eventually Cup-worthy defence corps in this organization? Because if we don't, then shouldn't we be looking at shipping Markov out for high return at the deadline, to help us achieve the goal of contention in the medium-term?

you have hit the nail upon the head. He can only be a part of the solution if he is traded to get assets for the cup year.

[Commandant]

You said who will replace him.

so 76-26 would be top pairing and 2nd could be Bufuglien and Yemelin, with 40-6 as 3rd pairing again and that would be fine by me.

What are you trading to get Byfuglien?

Probably similar assets (or even more given age and contract status) that you just acquired for Markov.

Isn't this chasing your tail to some extent?

And Byfuglien isn't as good as Markov.

[Guest Stogey24]

What are you trading to get Byfuglien?

Probably similar assets (or even more given age and contract status) that you just acquired for Markov.

Isn't this chasing your tail to some extent?

And Byfuglien isn't as good as Markov.

Byfuglien is a turnover machine on D. Its not worth sinking assets into him.

[IN THE HEARTS OF MEN]

markov needs to stay on for 3 years. he is a perfect second pairing defender and #1 PP quarterback.

id like to see him play the left point on the PP and have beaulieu set up on the right for the left handed one timer that markov made a living on for so long.

maybe move subban on the left boards so you can feed him for his one timer or he can cut in with a dangle

[DON]

What are you trading to get Byfuglien?

Probably similar assets (or even more given age and contract status) that you just acquired for Markov.

Isn't this chasing your tail to some extent?

And Byfuglien isn't as good as Markov.

To get the Big guy wouldn't be painless, e.g. Eller or the like, but he would instantly change the PP and grit/size whether at forward/or as a d-man.

But Bergevin should know him quite well from Hawk days, maybe it aint in the cards and your worries about fitness/defensive liability may be big issues?

[Machine of Loving Grace]

Commandant has been eating crow about Big Buff for a while (he thought he was gonna fail after Chicago), but I agree completely that Byfuglien replacing Markov doesn't do much for us. I'd rather see Big Buff and Markov on this team.

[BlueKross]

i think alot of you believe that we come through Sochi unscaved. I personally don't think we can afford to lose anybody for any length of time, we are just too thin. In the end this should affect any decision on Markov.

[huzer]

This thread will be an exercise in 20/20. If Montreal hangs on to Markov, makes the playoffs, fizzles out in round 1 (or round 2), and then Markov bolts, people will be lamenting the "bad asset management" that we didn't get something for Markov. If he's traded, and then Montreal fizzles out of a playoff spot, well then we should've help on to him to make the playoffs! It's kind of a no win.

I've gone on record in a different thread listing Markov in my top 5 most important players to the team. To be traded, it'd have to be a deal that would knock my socks off, and not a trade that's being trumpeted as a character building trade for the team. But man, if Markov walks...that's the chance you take.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

i think alot of you believe that we come through Sochi unscaved. I personally don't think we can afford to lose anybody for any length of time, we are just too thin. In the end this should affect any decision on Markov.

I understand that mentality and I think Bergevin is considering it as well. However for me, I'd much prefer to see Leblanc and Thomas getting call-ups than see Bourque in the lineup and I'd rather see Pateryn and Tinordi getting call-up chances than see Bouillon or Murray play anymore. Drewskie makes a decent 7th defenceman when he's 100% healthy (which he may soon be) so we don't need to be holding onto other 7th defencemen like Cube and Murray. Let the kids play. Let the kids make mistakes. If we lose a Markov to injury in Sochi, nobody is going to really fill in for him.

Hopefully we do get out of Russia unscathed. Hopefully Markov still owns a house in Russia and lets a few of the Habs stay there instead of the hotels without heating. Then again, he'll probably only invite Emelin over

[Guest Stogey24]

I understand that mentality and I think Bergevin is considering it as well. However for me, I'd much prefer to see Leblanc and Thomas getting call-ups than see Bourque in the lineup and I'd rather see Pateryn and Tinordi getting call-up chances than see Bouillon or Murray play anymore. Drewskie makes a decent 7th defenceman when he's 100% healthy (which he may soon be) so we don't need to be holding onto other 7th defencemen like Cube and Murray. Let the kids play. Let the kids make mistakes. If we lose a Markov to injury in Sochi, nobody is going to really fill in for him.

Hopefully we do get out of Russia unscathed. Hopefully Markov still owns a house in Russia and lets a few of the Habs stay there instead of the hotels without heating. Then again, he'll probably only invite Emelin over

Bourque has been playing better hockey as of late. He's rang the post so many times this year, I think his luck is going to change and we have 3.3 million sunk into him, he's going to play over the Leblanc and Thomas. Drewiske is huge plug who is barely NHL capable.

Why would we call up Tinordi or Pateryn when were starting to play decent hockey again? Let them finish the year in Hamilton. As for Murray he has stamped his name into the line up and I can't believe he doesn't get more respect on this forum. He's a heart and soul player and has been excellent on the P.K.

[BlueKross]

This thread will be an exercise in 20/20. If Montreal hangs on to Markov, makes the playoffs, fizzles out in round 1 (or round 2), and then Markov bolts, people will be lamenting the "bad asset management" that we didn't get something for Markov. If he's traded, and then Montreal fizzles out of a playoff spot, well then we should've help on to him to make the playoffs! It's kind of a no win.

I've gone on record in a different thread listing Markov in my top 5 most important players to the team. To be traded, it'd have to be a deal that would knock my socks off, and not a trade that's being trumpeted as a character building trade for the team. But man, if Markov walks...that's the chance you take.

I am with you here. However, my whole point is that the Montreal Canadiens may be a whole different animal after the S games. i prefer to defer any decision on Markov to just before the deadline.