Machine of Loving Grace Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 What makes Pacioretty a fine captain? One of the only actual jobs of a captain is to discuss calls with a referee as on ice representative of the team. I've seen Markov and Weber do that far more than Patches. He's like when Brett Hull was the captain of the St. Louis Blues. They gave it to a top player instead of the best man for the job. That's on the locker room though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 27 minutes ago, Machine of Loving Grace said: What makes Pacioretty a fine captain? One of the only actual jobs of a captain is to discuss calls with a referee as on ice representative of the team. I've seen Markov and Weber do that far more than Patches. He's like when Brett Hull was the captain of the St. Louis Blues. They gave it to a top player instead of the best man for the job. That's on the locker room though. Max lobbied hard for the job. He wanted it bad, and given that Markov and Price were ineligible and PK was too polarizing, the players probably figured, 'Max is a nice guy, what the hell.' I wonder of Patches has since had second thoughts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 1 hour ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said: Max lobbied hard for the job. He wanted it bad, and given that Markov and Price were ineligible and PK was too polarizing, the players probably figured, 'Max is a nice guy, what the hell.' I wonder of Patches has since had second thoughts. I almost want to be angry at Andrei Markov for not just accepting the C after Koivu's contract expired. Would have made the past seven years a lot easier when it comes to the C discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illWill Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 Let's fire the guy who took over a last place team 5 years ago and won 3 division titles, made the playoffs 4 out of 5 years, got to a Conference final and was nominated for GM of the year. The loss this year to the Rangers was what, 12 goals to 11 for the series? The same Rangers who have played more playoff games than anyone in that span. Do people still have their pitchforks out if they were able to win that close series? I'm putting the blame more on the players than the GM here. Talking about lack of goal scoring, look no further than the two best scorers we got with a combined ZERO goals. Sure Bergevin could have traded for "B" type scoring like a Hanzel or an Eaves, but let's not kid ourselves into thinking that those guys would have lit it up. I'm just as disappointed as the next guy with the first round exit. I thought for sure this team was going on a run this playoffs, even as the clock ticked down in the last game I still had faith. The series could have gone either way, but ultimately the Habs couldn't solve King Henrik as much as their shots and chances indicated they should have. Galchenyuk buried as a winger doesn't help (coach sets the lineup, not the GM) and Pacioretty happened to not score on any of his million shots (certainly not the GM's fault). 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 What makes a player a captain. Leaders lead, regardless of if they have a letter or not says Steve Ott. http://www.tsn.ca/radio/montreal-690/ott-don-t-need-a-letter-to-be-a-leader-1.739730 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toronthab Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 1 hour ago, illWill said: Let's fire the guy who took over a last place team 5 years ago and won 3 division titles, made the playoffs 4 out of 5 years, got to a Conference final and was nominated for GM of the year. The loss this year to the Rangers was what, 12 goals to 11 for the series? The same Rangers who have played more playoff games than anyone in that span. Do people still have their pitchforks out if they were able to win that close series? I'm putting the blame more on the players than the GM here. Talking about lack of goal scoring, look no further than the two best scorers we got with a combined ZERO goals. Sure Bergevin could have traded for "B" type scoring like a Hanzel or an Eaves, but let's not kid ourselves into thinking that those guys would have lit it up. I'm just as disappointed as the next guy with the first round exit. I thought for sure this team was going on a run this playoffs, even as the clock ticked down in the last game I still had faith. The series could have gone either way, but ultimately the Habs couldn't solve King Henrik as much as their shots and chances indicated they should have. Galchenyuk buried as a winger doesn't help (coach sets the lineup, not the GM) and Pacioretty happened to not score on any of his million shots (certainly not the GM's fault). I think I kinda agree with you, no disrespect or personal attacks inviting public scorn intended.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trizzak Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 2 hours ago, Commandant said: What makes a player a captain. Leaders lead, regardless of if they have a letter or not says Steve Ott. http://www.tsn.ca/radio/montreal-690/ott-don-t-need-a-letter-to-be-a-leader-1.739730 His words mean nothing. He has no C on his jersey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 Gauthier 10-11: Eastern Conference final 11-12: Bottom of the East Bergevin 13: First round exit 13-14: Eastern Conference final 14-15: Second round exit 15-16: Bottom of the East 16-17: First round exit Yeah not seeing much of an improvement. I mean, at least I'm sure Subban has the final Jersey he wore as a Hab at least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 28 minutes ago, Machine of Loving Grace said: Gauthier 10-11: Eastern Conference final 11-12: Bottom of the East Bergevin 13: First round exit 13-14: Eastern Conference final 14-15: Second round exit 15-16: Bottom of the East 16-17: First round exit Yeah not seeing much of an improvement. I mean, at least I'm sure Subban has the final Jersey he wore as a Hab at least. He's also probably giggling at how his GM thinks the team is so fragile without him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illWill Posted May 4, 2017 Share Posted May 4, 2017 2 hours ago, Machine of Loving Grace said: Gauthier 10-11: Eastern Conference final 11-12: Bottom of the East Bergevin 13: First round exit 13-14: Eastern Conference final 14-15: Second round exit 15-16: Bottom of the East 16-17: First round exit Yeah not seeing much of an improvement. I mean, at least I'm sure Subban has the final Jersey he wore as a Hab at least. 80% playoff appearance rate versus a 50% rate isn't much of an improvement? Tough crowd this Montreal fan base is. How privileged we must be out of the 30 NHL teams to consistently be a favorite to win the Cup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted May 4, 2017 Share Posted May 4, 2017 3 hours ago, illWill said: 80% playoff appearance rate versus a 50% rate isn't much of an improvement? Tough crowd this Montreal fan base is. How privileged we must be out of the 30 NHL teams to consistently be a favorite to win the Cup We are never favourites to win the Cup and have not been in any of his five years. Like I say, MB has ridden a solid inherited core and failed to improve it in any discernable way from 2015. Wow, what achievement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalhabs Posted May 4, 2017 Share Posted May 4, 2017 How long ago since we were the favorites to win the cup? 80s or maybe even as far back as the 70s? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illWill Posted May 4, 2017 Share Posted May 4, 2017 8 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said: We are never favourites to win the Cup and have not been in any of his five years. Like I say, MB has ridden a solid inherited core and failed to improve it in any discernable way from 2015. Wow, what achievement. I'm not quite sure what constitutes a favorite to win the Cup if winning one of the 4 divisions 3 times in 5 years doesn't count. Especially when the team with the most points in the regular season often does not go all the way. 2017 - ??? 2016 - Pittsburgh 4th overall 2015 - Chicago 7th overall 2014 - L.A 10th overall 2013 - Chicago 1st overall 2012 - L.A 13th overall 2011 - Boston 7th overall 2010 - Chicago 3rd overall 2009 - Pittsburgh 8th overall You yourself are a proponent of putting together a quality team over multiple seasons in order to have the best chance at winning. Do you now want to stray from that strategy and sell off the future in order to go all in for one season? Maybe you can apply for the GM job and show him how it's done. You can hire your buddy Habs29 as your assistant and he can snap his magical fingers to make the absurd trades that he proposes. Perhaps it is merely the opinion of a group of pessimistic Hab fans and Hab haters that consider them to never to be a favorite. I've said it on here time after time, it's hard to win the Cup. There is only 1 winner out of 30. Are Hab fans that spoiled by the success of the past so much that it blinds them in the present? How do you think Washington fans feel being a perennial "favorite"? How about San Jose fans? By my count there are 18 teams in the league that haven't won the Cup since Montreal last did in 93. And we are pissed off about division titles and playoff appearances almost every year? Give your head a shake 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted May 4, 2017 Share Posted May 4, 2017 8 hours ago, Dalhabs said: How long ago since we were the favorites to win the cup? 80s or maybe even as far back as the 70s? 88-89 when Montreal lost to the Flames. Both teams had the best record in hockey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted May 4, 2017 Share Posted May 4, 2017 The big thing for me is asking what has Bergevin has done to solve the team's biggest problem in the last 5 years. The big thing is that on Day One of his tenure he had a problem that his top 3 centres were Desharnais, Plekanec and Eller. Five years later his top 3 centres are Danault, Plekanec (who is the ghost of what he was 5 years ago), and Shaw. We went four of those five seasons with Desharnais, Plekanec and Eller starting the year as our top 3 centres, doing absolutely nothing to fix the problem. Sure we had drafted a guy, but he sat on the wing. We started in the middle of year 4 trying to convert that highly drafted centre, back to centre from a spot on wing. We also acquired Danault towards the end of the year. We traded away Eller and acquired some picks. Traded some other picks to acquire Shaw. In year 5 we started the season with a top 3 of Galchenyuk, Plekanec and Desharnais. We ended it with Danault, Plekanec and Shaw (Flynn in the final game cause Shaw was hurt, but lets say Shaw cause MB doesn't control injuries, nor should he be expected to). Galchenyuk was back on the wing cause they didn't have the patience to ride out the growing pains of moving him to centre (which could have been done years earlier)... and our Centre situation was just as big a problem at the end of year 5 as it was at the start of year 1. Thats not very good. If after 5 years he's done that little to address the team's biggest need, I don't know how anyone can argue he's been successful at his job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted May 4, 2017 Share Posted May 4, 2017 1 hour ago, illWill said: I'm not quite sure what constitutes a favorite to win the Cup if winning one of the 4 divisions 3 times in 5 years doesn't count. Especially when the team with the most points in the regular season often does not go all the way. 2017 - ??? 2016 - Pittsburgh 4th overall 2015 - Chicago 7th overall 2014 - L.A 10th overall 2013 - Chicago 1st overall 2012 - L.A 13th overall 2011 - Boston 7th overall 2010 - Chicago 3rd overall 2009 - Pittsburgh 8th overall You yourself are a proponent of putting together a quality team over multiple seasons in order to have the best chance at winning. Do you now want to stray from that strategy and sell off the future in order to go all in for one season? Maybe you can apply for the GM job and show him how it's done. You can hire your buddy Habs29 as your assistant and he can snap his magical fingers to make the absurd trades that he proposes. Perhaps it is merely the opinion of a group of pessimistic Hab fans and Hab haters that consider them to never to be a favorite. I've said it on here time after time, it's hard to win the Cup. There is only 1 winner out of 30. Are Hab fans that spoiled by the success of the past so much that it blinds them in the present? How do you think Washington fans feel being a perennial "favorite"? How about San Jose fans? By my count there are 18 teams in the league that haven't won the Cup since Montreal last did in 93. And we are pissed off about division titles and playoff appearances almost every year? Give your head a shake Commandant's post above is a nice example of where I'm coming from. As for the Habs' status, no one is denying that Gauthier and Gainey built a quality core that Bergevin inherited, and which - as long as Price is healthy - make the Habs a good team. There is a distinction between being a good team and a top- tier contender. The Habs have yet to enter the playoffs with a sufficiently strong roster as to be generally regarded as top-tier contenders. You're quite right that being a top contender is no guarantee of winning (hi there, Washington and San Jose) and that teams not widely thought to be top tier can win (hello LA, 2012). But it's crazy to just ignore the distinction altogether. It's like ignoring the distinction between a superstar and a good player who, maybe, can have one great year where he rises above his normal output. You're saying we should be perfectly happy being on the 'outer circle' year after year and hoping we have a magical run. My view is that Bergevin's job is to get the Habs into the inner circle of top contenders. He inherited a good team and has been treading water for five years, while overseeing a disintegrating developmental system. If that's all we want - a team that can reliably make the playoffs before declining due to old age, with minimal promise of future improvement - then yeah, he's the GM for you. By contrast, I want excellence: elite, top-end managerial performance, building an elite, top-end team. Bergevin has proven incompetent to do this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illWill Posted May 4, 2017 Share Posted May 4, 2017 I suppose it's Bergevin's fault that Galchenyuk has failed to become that #1 center that we so desperately need? Because Galchenyuk, Plekanec, Danault down the middle was supposed to be how it all played out, which isn't nearly as bad as what it was to end the season. We all expected more production from Galchenyuk heading into the season as a top line center. Nobody expected Plekanec to fall off a cliff points wise and Danualt played well and would have done great on the third line. I also agree with what he said at the press conference that players need to take responsibility for themselves. What does it say for a team that so desperately lacks a top end center that their supposed number 1 finds himself on the 4th line playing wing when they need him the most? Is that the player's fault or the GM's? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted May 4, 2017 Share Posted May 4, 2017 8 minutes ago, illWill said: I suppose it's Bergevin's fault that Galchenyuk has failed to become that #1 center that we so desperately need? Because Galchenyuk, Plekanec, Danault down the middle was supposed to be how it all played out, which isn't nearly as bad as what it was to end the season. I also agree with what he said at the press conference that players need to take responsibility for themselves. What does it say for a team that so desperately lacks a top end center and their supposed number 1 finds himself on the 4th line playing wing when they need him the most? Is that the player's fault or the GM's? You don't think Beregvin should have taken some fault for getting knocked out of the playoffs in the first round? He didn't do his facking job! He kept his bum buddy Therien way too long and didn't fix the problem that plagued this team all season long, SCORING! He added 3 guys at the deadline, who combined for as many points as me in the playoffs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted May 4, 2017 Share Posted May 4, 2017 1 minute ago, Stogey24 said: You don't think Beregvin should have taken some fault for getting knocked out of the playoffs in the first round? He didn't do his facking job! He kept his bum buddy Therien way too long and didn't fix the problem that plagued this team all season long, SCORING! He added 3 guys at the deadline, who combined for as many points as me in the playoffs. It's not just this season. This team also crapped out of the 2015 playoffs for exactly the same reason: it couldn't score. Instead of identifying the real problem, Bergevin went aftet 'Leadership.' The result of this misidentification was a 2017 that was no better than the 2015 team and had EXACTLY the same problem. All that Bergevin managed to do was burn two years of the team's window and age its core by four years on a pointless lateral move. Complete ineptitude. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted May 4, 2017 Share Posted May 4, 2017 5 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said: It's not just this season. This team also crapped out of the 2015 playoffs for exactly the same reason: it couldn't score. Instead of identifying the real problem, Bergevin went aftet 'Leadership.' The result of this misidentification was a 2017 that was no better than the 2015 team and had EXACTLY the same problem. All that Bergevin managed to do was burn two years of the team's window and age its core by four years on a pointless lateral move. Complete ineptitude. I cannot believe people still support him. This division will be tougher next year. This current team could have issues even getting into the playoffs with Leafs, Tampa, Florida, Ottawa and Boston all making a push. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted May 4, 2017 Share Posted May 4, 2017 21 minutes ago, Stogey24 said: I cannot believe people still support him. This division will be tougher next year. This current team could have issues even getting into the playoffs with Leafs, Tampa, Florida, Ottawa and Boston all making a push. The folks supporting him seem to take a 'good is good enough' philosophy. They're not demanding excellence. Normally I don't worry too much about other teams during the offseason. Usually there is a team or two that craps out unexpectedly, so it evens out. In this instance, though, I share your concern. The teams you mention are generally on an upward arc based onbgood fundamentals, i.e., rising young talent. The Habs, as I keep saying, are treading water with a slowly aging core. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted May 4, 2017 Share Posted May 4, 2017 43 minutes ago, illWill said: I suppose it's Bergevin's fault that Galchenyuk has failed to become that #1 center that we so desperately need? Because Galchenyuk, Plekanec, Danault down the middle was supposed to be how it all played out, which isn't nearly as bad as what it was to end the season. We all expected more production from Galchenyuk heading into the season as a top line center. Nobody expected Plekanec to fall off a cliff points wise and Danualt played well and would have done great on the third line. I also agree with what he said at the press conference that players need to take responsibility for themselves. What does it say for a team that so desperately lacks a top end center that their supposed number 1 finds himself on the 4th line playing wing when they need him the most? Is that the player's fault or the GM's? I do think its bergevin's job that he allowed Galchenyuk to sit on the wing for 3.5 years, to not develop his defensive game, and then think everything would be fine when they threw the guy into the fire. Yes. At some point you have to tell the coach, play him at centre. Live with the growing pains and lets build this. And no one expected Plekanec to fall off the cliff. But he's also 34, and he had no Plan B for a 34 year old regressing. And when the deadline came, he got three players who scored a combined 2 points in 50 games. With Desharnais and Andrighetto out, he managed to downgrade the offence of a team that can't score. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PMAC Posted May 4, 2017 Share Posted May 4, 2017 19 minutes ago, Stogey24 said: I cannot believe people still support him. This division will be tougher next year. This current team could have issues even getting into the playoffs with Leafs, Tampa, Florida, Ottawa and Boston all making a push. That's the same thing that pundits said last season and we won the division. Some commentators eg., TSN actually rate Bergevin's work rather highly. The constant repetition of the idea that he has done nothing to strengthen the team is getting tedious not to mention that it is false. He has added Byron, Radulov and Lehkonen just to name three upgrades and we actually have depth on d now. Am I happy that Lefebvre is still in the organization? no. Would I like more centre depth, more scoring and better player development? Of course. Bergevin is far from perfect but he is not the complete incompetent that some here are claiming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted May 4, 2017 Share Posted May 4, 2017 56 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said: The folks supporting him seem to take a 'good is good enough' philosophy. They're not demanding excellence. Normally I don't worry too much about other teams during the offseason. Usually there is a team or two that craps out unexpectedly, so it evens out. In this instance, though, I share your concern. The teams you mention are generally on an upward arc based onbgood fundamentals, i.e., rising young talent. The Habs, as I keep saying, are treading water with a slowly aging core. Maybe you just found a new sign for Habs dressing room. " good is good enough" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted May 4, 2017 Share Posted May 4, 2017 54 minutes ago, PMAC said: That's the same thing that pundits said last season and we won the division. Some commentators eg., TSN actually rate Bergevin's work rather highly. The constant repetition of the idea that he has done nothing to strengthen the team is getting tedious not to mention that it is false. He has added Byron, Radulov and Lehkonen just to name three upgrades and we actually have depth on d now. Am I happy that Lefebvre is still in the organization? no. Would I like more centre depth, more scoring and better player development? Of course. Bergevin is far from perfect but he is not the complete incompetent that some here are claiming. Lets hear this rating for Beregvin's deadline moves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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