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Fire Bergevin


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1 hour ago, Commandant said:

 

I do think its bergevin's job that he allowed Galchenyuk to sit on the wing for 3.5 years, to not develop his defensive game, and then think everything would be fine when they threw the guy into the fire.  Yes. 

At some point you have to tell the coach, play him at centre.  Live with the growing pains and lets build this. 

And no one expected Plekanec to fall off the cliff.  But he's also 34, and he had no Plan B for a 34 year old regressing. 

 

And when the deadline came, he got three players who scored a combined 2 points in 50 games.  With Desharnais and Andrighetto out, he managed to downgrade the offence of a team that can't score. 

 

After last year's 30 goal campaign all signs pointed to Galchenyuk having a big year as a full time #1 center. So in theory we already had our top center in place, no need to go get one. As for Plekanec, he had half of the production that he did the year before. No matter how old he is getting, we were easily expecting him to slot in at #2 or #3 and score more points. So that left Desharnais, Danault and maybe Shaw to fill in the 3rd line. That's not that bad at all, especially after signing Radulov and correctly identifying that Lehkonen would stay with the big club and contribute. 

 

With regards to "telling the coach" to put him at center, don't you think that's a recipe for disaster? The coach is paid to coach. It's ultimately his decision to configure the lines whichever way he thinks gives the team the best chance to win. The GM is paid to put together the roster, not where they play or how much they do. If you can think of a scenario where the GM told the coach how to coach and it worked out well for the team, I am all ears. 

 

I agree that the trade deadline was disappointing. However it is hard to get excited about some of the names that were dealt. Who was he supposed to get to play center? Martin Hanzel, Brian Boyle? Okay, he could maybe have got Vanek or Eaves but that doesn't solve the top center issue. Could he have overpaid with our future and landed Duchense? We don't know what the asking price was, and I'm certain that if we knew I highly doubt most would be on board with it. Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. 

 

 

1 hour ago, PMAC said:

That's the same thing that pundits said last season and we won the division. Some commentators eg., TSN actually rate Bergevin's  work rather highly. The constant repetition of the idea that he has done nothing to strengthen the team is getting tedious not to mention that it is false. He has added Byron, Radulov and Lehkonen just to name three upgrades and we actually have depth on d now. Am I happy that Lefebvre is still in the organization? no. Would I like more centre depth, more scoring and better player development? Of course. Bergevin is far from perfect but he is not the complete incompetent that some here are claiming.

 

It's getting ridiculous around here. It's the same garbage we heard about Therrien for years, that he is a moron and incompetent. It's one thing to criticize a person on how they do their job but to say Marc Bergevin is incompetent is laughable. He's made mistakes just like any other GM but when you look at his body of work and where the team is at right now it doesn't justify the abuse. We're not having this conversation if Pacioretty or Galchenyuk scored a couple goals and the Habs squeaked out the win against the Rangers.  

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The one thing I will say is that first of all, we scored the same amount of (actually more) goals this year than Anaheim. A team that is poised to win the cup as well as a team that has that elusive stud center prototype in Getzlaf that we are trying to get ahold of. San Jose also couldn't put the puck in the net more than us and I'd take some of the forwards on their team. Furthermore, New York couldn't score either in our series and they have key players who are struggling yet they're still in it for the run.

 

Next, a team like Washington who are the team most Habs fans use as an example of that top tier team are on the brink of elimination. If they lose this series, they simply weren't realistically top tier contenders. It doesn't matter how many times one says they were.  I say that because Toronto gave them a run for their money as well. We'll see though as they are still in it. 

 

Finally, what team has been a dynasty out west for the past few years? What's that? They got shutout multiple times in a 4 game series they were swept in? Fine, I hear you already. "But this has been a continual issue for us and not Chicago". 

 

It's been stated that Bergervin has failed to target the real issue which is scoring by targeting something that conveniently wasn't an issue in leadership. And we're supposed to know that how? After 1 year of addressing that "non issue"? Great sample size we're using there. 

 

We do need more scoring but realistically the team had a shot this year and out of any year I don't think there was much more Bergevin could have done to really make a difference. There's the expansion draft coming up and the pickings were extremely thin at the deadline. Only in retrospect, if it was even possible, I may have entertained a deal involving Duchene and Galchenyuk. 

 

None of that has much baring on whether or not I personally believe he should be fired or not. I don't think he will be though until at the very earliest next Spring. The new coach was here for 2.5 months and they'll want to see how things start off next year.

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17 minutes ago, illWill said:

We're not having this conversation if Pacioretty or Galchenyuk scored a couple goals and the Habs squeaked out the win against the Rangers.  

 

How is Galchenyuk supposed to score goals when starting most of the series on the fourth line!?

 

Like this focus on Galchenyuk just blows my mind. He has yet to receive an entire season at centre. He's constantly shuffled. After 13-14 he should have been locked onto the second or third line at centre and never moved off, unless he picked up a road defensive game good enough to move to #1 centre. Instead he gets constantly shuffled to the left wing, sometimes even the right wing! And forced into a situation for most of the time where it was first line or nothing. 15-16 he got pulled off centre why? Why did Desharnais take his spot in the top six? Why did he start playing right wing? Why wasn't Therrien fired for this when he finally put Galchenyuk back at centre late in February after TRYING MIKE MCCARRON IN THE FIRST LINE CENTRE ROLE FOR THREE GAMES BEFORE GIVING IT TO GALCHENYUK!?????

 

Like it was absolute madness. And then the madness continued in 16-17, when everyone told me oh no MoLG, there's no way Galchenyuk is getting pulled off of centre after last season. But yup, it happened again. With Therrien *and* the new coach. And Julien was even worse. I don't think Galchenyuk ever played fourth line when Therrien was around. But with Julien, in the playoffs, he starts on the fourth line for three games? And then on game six, with the season on the line, he now decides Galchenyuk should be relied upon for the final two faceoffs of the series.

 

The only constant in this is Marc Bergevin. He has allowed two head coaches to completely mishandle his third overall pick top six centre. His comments showed he isn't oblivious. He has constantly criticized Galchenyuk's ability at centre. We all thought it was a negotiation tactic. It's clear he just doesn't see it. And had no problem watching two head coaches constantly thrust him to the wing, even the bottom of the forwards.

 

Like even PK Subban wasn't screwed around with this much. He got messed around with in 2012-2013 and then wasn't touched from the first pair after that. Galchenyuk has never had a chance to get comfortable at centre. And then gets blamed for not scoring goals on the fourth line left wing. And then gets treated like a pariah with us now having to argue that Montreal needs two top six centres when one is sitting right there waiting to be matured into the role at 23 years of age. It's absolute madness.

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46 minutes ago, illWill said:

 

After last year's 30 goal campaign all signs pointed to Galchenyuk having a big year as a full time #1 center. So in theory we already had our top center in place, no need to go get one. As for Plekanec, he had half of the production that he did the year before. No matter how old he is getting, we were easily expecting him to slot in at #2 or #3 and score more points. So that left Desharnais, Danault and maybe Shaw to fill in the 3rd line. That's not that bad at all, especially after signing Radulov and correctly identifying that Lehkonen would stay with the big club and contribute. 

 

With regards to "telling the coach" to put him at center, don't you think that's a recipe for disaster? The coach is paid to coach. It's ultimately his decision to configure the lines whichever way he thinks gives the team the best chance to win. The GM is paid to put together the roster, not where they play or how much they do. If you can think of a scenario where the GM told the coach how to coach and it worked out well for the team, I am all ears. 

 

I agree that the trade deadline was disappointing. However it is hard to get excited about some of the names that were dealt. Who was he supposed to get to play center? Martin Hanzel, Brian Boyle? Okay, he could maybe have got Vanek or Eaves but that doesn't solve the top center issue. Could he have overpaid with our future and landed Duchense? We don't know what the asking price was, and I'm certain that if we knew I highly doubt most would be on board with it. Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. 

 

 

 

It's getting ridiculous around here. It's the same garbage we heard about Therrien for years, that he is a moron and incompetent. It's one thing to criticize a person on how they do their job but to say Marc Bergevin is incompetent is laughable. He's made mistakes just like any other GM but when you look at his body of work and where the team is at right now it doesn't justify the abuse. We're not having this conversation if Pacioretty or Galchenyuk scored a couple goals and the Habs squeaked out the win against the Rangers.  

 

 

GMs and coaches are in constant communication.  Daily communication. 

 

And yes some of the things the GM says, like look, there are no better centres available.  We need to have chuck turn into a number 1 centre, cause acquiring one is hard. (things he's basically said in press conferences), need to be said to the coach.  Look, if we are ever going to win, this guy needs to be a number 1 centre, and needs to develop into that role. 

 

If he isn't impressing that on his coach, thats the real recipe for disaster... not just sitting back and watching. 

 

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I've been a big proponent of Galchenyuk being our top line center. I thought it was only a matter of time until it would become a regular thing in these very playoffs.

 

There comes a point where the player definitely has to take responsibility for his play though. There are some instincts that players either do or do not have. Galchenyuk has been playing hockey his entire life and if he needs to learn to feel comfortable at a given position, he should have been doing that for the past 15 years. I've played left wing and center and I'm aware that there are different responsibilities for both positions. If a coach asked me to play either, I'd be abke to step up to the plate. 

 

Sure, the NHL is a different beast but there have been rookies and sophomores who have been able to adapt their game to the league quite quickly. If I was lucky enough to have the skills of Galchenyuk and was moved to the wing, I would simply adjust my mindset. Cover the point in the defensive zone and create some havoc in the neutral zone hoping to force some odd man rushes. If I was a center? Set up as the high man in the offensive zone and try to cover for any pinches by the d men and try to be the first forward back. Anticipate when a turnover will happen and use my head effectively. 

 

Theres no reason that Galchenyuk's progress should have been delayed even with his handling. Galchenyuk has even stated what I said I'd feel about the situation by saying that he's fine with playing either center or wing and will play where the coach tells him to.

 

The 4th line thing was ridiculous but that's happened for about 10 days in his careeer and was an extreme outlier. With Julien I do become a little more worried but as much as I love Galchenyuk and was so happy when we drafted him, enough pampering of him by the fan base as well. He needs to take responsibility for his play as long as he's being given top 6 minutes. Wing or center? It doesn't matter: produce. 

 

I think the the whole conversation is for naught though. I believe he will be top 3 in scoring for us next year. 

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10 minutes ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

I think the the whole conversation is for naught though. I believe he will be top 3 in scoring for us next year. 

 

You do realize he's a restricted free agent, right? Him and Beaulieu.

 

The way he has been treated for the past few years, I'm pretty sure he's going to push arbitration hard. And Bergevin won't like what he'll be expected to pay from his production. The arbitrator won't care what they have to say about his backchecking.

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1 hour ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

Theres no reason that Galchenyuk's progress should have been delayed even with his handling. Galchenyuk has even stated what I said I'd feel about the situation by saying that he's fine with playing either center or wing and will play where the coach tells him to.

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41 minutes ago, Commandant said:

You can't honestly believe that? How a player is handled has no effect on the speed of his development. 

 

(not sure why I can't type this in the same post as the quote). 

I definitely think it has had an effect on Galchenyuk to an extent but I also think it's up to the player to handle it the right way. Not every player would get affected by being used in a versatile role. I'm not talking about 1st line versus 4th line but center versus wing. Everyone constantly brings up his handling and development as being the reason for anything negative attributed to his play. The truth is he has played extended periods at both positions. I'm more concerned with the way he has been handled by Julien (4th line vs top 6) than anything previous to that (center vs. wing) but I'm still thinking he'll be fine. 

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I believe he'll be fine if given time at centre. 

 

I also believe that not playing the position, means he's not as advanced defensively as he could be, if he played the position for 2-3 years. 

 

I think there are some things you can only learn on the job, by making mistakes, and growing.  He has been limited in that time. 

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9 hours ago, Stogey24 said:

Lets hear this rating for Beregvin's deadline moves. 

 

I preferred what he did over selling the farm for a second tier talent like Duchene. I thought King would be useful but I couldn't understand why Julien kept playing him. How's Wash big ticket acquisition working out? 

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11 hours ago, PMAC said:

I preferred what he did over selling the farm for a second tier talent like Duchene. I thought King would be useful but I couldn't understand why Julien kept playing him. How's Wash big ticket acquisition working out? 

You prefer that Beregvin added nothing at the deadline to a team that was goal starved  and  apparently "all in"  to win the Stanley Cup.

 

We'll never win a Cup, if that's the thinking that's going with Habs upper management. 

 

Washington made a great move in acquiring Pietrangelo. Brian McClellan saw a weakness on his team, so he went out and fixed it. 

 

 

Our g.m on the other hand did absolutely to resolve an issue that plagued this team all season. 

 

Ya, Dwight King and his 15pts in 63 games, was really going to add goal scoring to this team. Come on. 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Stogey24 said:

You prefer that Beregvin added nothing at the deadline to a team that was goal starved  and  apparently "all in"  to win the Stanley Cup.

 

We'll never win a Cup, if that's the thinking that's going with Habs upper management. 

 

Washington made a great move in acquiring Pietrangelo. Brian McClellan saw a weakness on his team, so he went out and fixed it. 

 

 

Our g.m on the other hand did absolutely to resolve an issue that plagued this team all season. 

 

Ya, Dwight King was really going to add goal scoring to this team. Come on. 

 

 

 

Who is it that Stogey, GM of the Montreal Canadiens would have traded for at the deadline? 

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17 hours ago, Commandant said:

I believe he'll be fine if given time at centre. 

 

I also believe that not playing the position, means he's not as advanced defensively as he could be, if he played the position for 2-3 years. 

 

I think there are some things you can only learn on the job, by making mistakes, and growing.  He has been limited in that time. 

Therrien frickin ruined him, some glad he is gone and new coach will fix the kid.

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33 minutes ago, illWill said:

 

Who is it that Stogey, GM of the Montreal Canadiens would have traded for at the deadline? 

Sergachev, Emelin, Plekanec, Gallagher, Pacioretty and Petry perhaps?:spamafote:

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Like I keep saying...it's not this year's deadline. It's that he has been unable to improve the team over his tenure, succeeding in doing nothing but wasting the core's prime years, coupled with the wretched talent pipeline. The present is well short of Cup-winning and the future looks worse. That's the track record.

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5 hours ago, illWill said:

 

Who is it that Stogey, GM of the Montreal Canadiens would have traded for at the deadline? 

That's his job to scheme up.

 

Hell, even Drew Stafford would have been an upgrade

 

4 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

Like I keep saying...it's not this year's deadline. It's that he has been unable to improve the team over his tenure, succeeding in doing nothing but wasting the core's prime years, coupled with the wretched talent pipeline. The present is well short of Cup-winning and the future looks worse. That's the track record.

It is this years deadline though. It's the time when you solidify your team. 

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I didn't know where to put this thought but I think maybe MB should hang out sales/collections folk... I don't understand how he missed out on Shipachyov to Vegas at 4.5/yr???? http://www.lapresse.ca/sports/hockey/201705/04/01-5094927-les-golden-knights-embauchent-le-russe-vadim-shipachyov.php?utm_categorieinterne=trafficdrivers&utm_contenuinterne=cyberpresse_B13b_hockey_194509_section_POS4

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3 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

Like I keep saying...it's not this year's deadline. It's that he has been unable to improve the team over his tenure, succeeding in doing nothing but wasting the core's prime years, coupled with the wretched talent pipeline. The present is well short of Cup-winning and the future looks worse. That's the track record.

Stinking 2nd class franchise needs blown up big time, scortched earth policy is needed, right CC!:clap:

Burn Baby Burn!

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26 minutes ago, DON said:

Stinking 2nd class franchise needs blown up big time, scortched earth policy is needed, right CC!:clap:

Burn Baby Burn!

 

No, it needs a GM who can actually make a contender out of it.

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1 hour ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

No, it needs a GM who can actually make a contender out of it.

Oh sorry, my mistake.

Fire that plodding idiotic SOB POS GM already! Get ...well anyone would be an upgrade...I bet Bergevin didn't even finish high school did he!

F'in moroon, what was Molson thinking when he hired him!

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3 hours ago, Stogey24 said:

That's his job to scheme up.

 

Hell, even Drew Stafford would have been an upgrade

 

It is this years deadline though. It's the time when you solidify your team. 

It's a pretty weak argument though. Drew Stafford went out in the first round with the Bruins. Would we actually be less hard on Bergevin after losing to the Rangers because he at least went out and got Drew Stafford? The result would have been the same. 

 

Washington traded for Shattenkirk by the way not Pietrangelo. I know it was a legit mistake, just saying. 

 

As for this being about Bergevin's larger body of work, it's a better argument but I don't think the timing for firing him is right. It does seem a little irrational to have both your coach and gm fired during a season where the teams clinched the division and finished tied for 9th in the league after a first round playoff exit.

 

Our offense does need work; it needed work even before last season. But our team as it is can also play better than it showed this year. If Byron and Danault are on our 3rd line depth chart going into next season, then I'll be fine with our team. Lehkonen can join the top 6 and we need one or two top 6 centers if it's the only way to push Danault down.

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On 5/4/2017 at 0:50 PM, illWill said:

 

After last year's 30 goal campaign all signs pointed to Galchenyuk having a big year as a full time #1 center. So in theory we already had our top center in place, no need to go get one. As for Plekanec, he had half of the production that he did the year before. No matter how old he is getting, we were easily expecting him to slot in at #2 or #3 and score more points. So that left Desharnais, Danault and maybe Shaw to fill in the 3rd line. That's not that bad at all, especially after signing Radulov and correctly identifying that Lehkonen would stay with the big club and contribute. 

 

With regards to "telling the coach" to put him at center, don't you think that's a recipe for disaster? The coach is paid to coach. It's ultimately his decision to configure the lines whichever way he thinks gives the team the best chance to win. The GM is paid to put together the roster, not where they play or how much they do. If you can think of a scenario where the GM told the coach how to coach and it worked out well for the team, I am all ears. 

 

I agree that the trade deadline was disappointing. However it is hard to get excited about some of the names that were dealt. Who was he supposed to get to play center? Martin Hanzel, Brian Boyle? Okay, he could maybe have got Vanek or Eaves but that doesn't solve the top center issue. Could he have overpaid with our future and landed Duchense? We don't know what the asking price was, and I'm certain that if we knew I highly doubt most would be on board with it. Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. 

 

 

 

It's getting ridiculous around here. It's the same garbage we heard about Therrien for years, that he is a moron and incompetent. It's one thing to criticize a person on how they do their job but to say Marc Bergevin is incompetent is laughable. He's made mistakes just like any other GM but when you look at his body of work and where the team is at right now it doesn't justify the abuse. We're not having this conversation if Pacioretty or Galchenyuk scored a couple goals and the Habs squeaked out the win against the Rangers.  

I don't mean to undermine your comments, but I agree with you. 

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On 5/4/2017 at 1:22 PM, xXx..CK..xXx said:

The one thing I will say is that first of all, we scored the same amount of (actually more) goals this year than Anaheim. A team that is poised to win the cup as well as a team that has that elusive stud center prototype in Getzlaf that we are trying to get ahold of. San Jose also couldn't put the puck in the net more than us and I'd take some of the forwards on their team. Furthermore, New York couldn't score either in our series and they have key players who are struggling yet they're still in it for the run.

 

Next, a team like Washington who are the team most Habs fans use as an example of that top tier team are on the brink of elimination. If they lose this series, they simply weren't realistically top tier contenders. It doesn't matter how many times one says they were.  I say that because Toronto gave them a run for their money as well. We'll see though as they are still in it. 

 

Finally, what team has been a dynasty out west for the past few years? What's that? They got shutout multiple times in a 4 game series they were swept in? Fine, I hear you already. "But this has been a continual issue for us and not Chicago". 

 

It's been stated that Bergervin has failed to target the real issue which is scoring by targeting something that conveniently wasn't an issue in leadership. And we're supposed to know that how? After 1 year of addressing that "non issue"? Great sample size we're using there. 

 

We do need more scoring but realistically the team had a shot this year and out of any year I don't think there was much more Bergevin could have done to really make a difference. There's the expansion draft coming up and the pickings were extremely thin at the deadline. Only in retrospect, if it was even possible, I may have entertained a deal involving Duchene and Galchenyuk. 

 

None of that has much baring on whether or not I personally believe he should be fired or not. I don't think he will be though until at the very earliest next Spring. The new coach was here for 2.5 months and they'll want to see how things start off next year.

No insult intended.. but I agree with you. I hope this won't engender nagging self doubt. :huh:

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As a good hockey analyst said to me the other day... "Shut up Toronthab.. you don't know anything."

 

I'm still working on my rejoinder. I plan to start with something like.. "Oh ya!!". You know..something catchy like that...:(

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