Fire Bergevin

[Commandant]

4 minutes ago, Neech said:

 

Do you think this organization will do a good job of development to get the most out of their prospects?  Their track record has not been good, and it appears as if KK has already been mishandled so far.  

 

I, too, hold out hope that KK could follow a Couturier-like trajectory - break out as a 70-point player at the age of 24.  But if that's the case, it's still 4 years away.  The timeline of this roster is incoherent. 

 

1.) No.  But I think that has been adressed.  Bouchard has had the AHL team for two years and has already produced more regular NHLers than Lefebvre ever did.  The coaching staff at the NHL level has also been changed. So I don't know that looking at what happened with Galchenyuk, or any of that era of players is really what we should judge KK's development by.  Even the assistant coaches on the NHL squad have been changed. 

 

2) Why does it have to be Couturier and break out at 24?  Why is it now or 24?  Who says it won't be 22? or 23? Why are there only 2 paths?  

[Neech]

4 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

1.) No.  But I think that has been adressed.  Bouchard has had the AHL team for two years and has already produced more regular NHLers than Lefebvre ever did.  The coaching staff at the NHL level has also been changed. So I don't know that looking at what happened with Galchenyuk, or any of that era of players is really what we should judge KK's development by.  Even the assistant coaches on the NHL squad have been changed. 

 

2) Why does it have to be Couturier and break out at 24?  Why is it now or 24?  Who says it won't be 22? or 23? Why are there only 2 paths?  

 

1. We've gone from an abominable development system to maybe passable?  I still don't have confidence that this organization knows how to maximize its prospects. Jake Evans is a success story - I'd chalk it up to the 4 years he spent in college outside of this development system.  

 

2. More likely than either of those paths is that KK never hits 70 points. He's never been near that ppg pace in his career.  The bigger issue is that he isn't an elite talent to justify his draft position.

[GHT120]

37 minutes ago, Commandant said:

2) Why does it have to be Couturier and break out at 24?  Why is it now or 24?  Who says it won't be 22? or 23? Why are there only 2 paths?  

I didn't take it to mean literally 24 ... but rather an analogy to a player who was a top 10 pick, with offensive expectations, but for whom it took several years for his offensive game to flourish ... in other words, disappointing offensive start but in its due time the offence arrived

[hab29RETIRED]

5 hours ago, GHT120 said:

 

Oh ... so pretty much just that everyone plays their very, very best

 

 

The forward needs to play good enough, the D needs to be adequate (which is as good as we can hope from what we’ve got), and Price needs to play like an MVP. I don’t think we can win if we just Price is just good. We are better offensively, but with our D, we only go as far as our goaltending takes us. The Leafs can get by with average goaltending. We can’t.

[Commandant]

1 hour ago, Neech said:

 

1. We've gone from an abominable development system to maybe passable?  I still don't have confidence that this organization knows how to maximize its prospects. Jake Evans is a success story - I'd chalk it up to the 4 years he spent in college outside of this development system.  

 

2. More likely than either of those paths is that KK never hits 70 points. He's never been near that ppg pace in his career.  The bigger issue is that he isn't an elite talent to justify his draft position.

 

Given what is happening in Laval this season, I'd say Bouchard is a lot more than passable.

[Neech]

44 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

Given what is happening in Laval this season, I'd say Bouchard is a lot more than passable.

 

Bouchard looks good and appears to be our best developmental asset.  My concern is that the organization as a whole doesn't know what to do with young talent.  Both KK and Romanov could have benefitted with at least a whole season under Bouchard.  Instead they were rushed to the big club for PR reasons.  At least Romanov took the extra years across the pond to develop physically; KK could have used some of those.

[TheDriveFor25]

KK a miss? There are first round selections from the same draft class that haven’t even made it to the NHL yet.. way too early. The club was thin at the C position and needed him. 
Tkachuk way better? Guess we’ll have to agree to disagree.

 

I don’t mind Bergevin.. he’s put together a good roster and made some great moves.. can’t always blame the GM when the players don’t get the job done. 

[Chris]

Tkachuk is much better period, he is already way better than KK, how is that even a debate? 

[alfredoh2009]

Seems like the 👻 boo crew 👻 is out in force criticizing the 4th place finish, the scoring drought of the prospects and the rookie lapses of the teams future top4 LD

 

MB is not perfect, but I agree with @Commandant that he has done a decent job in his second rebuild/reset

 

playoff success will be the best way to demonstrate if he deserves an extension 

[johnnyhasbeen]

And you possess a crystal ball to see the future? Please tell us, who should we draft this year? You seem to think these are obvious to everyone but MB. Tell us please. Then we will see in a few seasons just how great you would be. The bunch of you are complaining that MB couldn't see Tkachuk would be ahead of KK in development 3 years ahead? SMH and wondering why I bother.

7 hours ago, Chris said:

Tkachuk is much better period, he is already way better than KK, how is that even a debate? 

 

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I think it is premature to say he’s “done a good job” with this reset. We may have some grounds to think that they finally fixed the developmental system after Bergevin did massive damage by clinging to that patent failure Lefebvre for five (!!!) years. But Weber and Price are only going to get worse (and they are already pretty terrible); even the mighty Petry is turning 34; and as far as I can see there is a paucity of elite talent in the pipeline. The vaunted Romanov is a fine young D-man but doesn’t seem to have anything like elite offensive creativity in his arsenal. KK may or may not ever become much. Insert Caufield, subtract Tatar or whoever. In short: bubble team mediocrity appears to be the likeliest projection for the team taken as a whole. 

[alfredoh2009]

28 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

I think it is premature to say he’s “done a good job” with this reset. We may have some grounds to think that they finally fixed the developmental system after Bergevin did massive damage by clinging to that patent failure Lefebvre for five (!!!) years. But Weber and Price are only going to get worse (and they are already pretty terrible); even the mighty Petry is turning 34; and as far as I can see there is a paucity of elite talent in the pipeline. The vaunted Romanov is a fine young D-man but doesn’t seem to have anything like elite offensive creativity in his arsenal. KK may or may not ever become much. Insert Caufield, subtract Tatar or whoever. In short: bubble team mediocrity appears to be the likeliest projection for the team taken as a whole. 

Brook, Fleury, Ylonen, Poehling and probably Norlinder will be NHLers

 

there is no paucity there

[hockeyrealist]

No need to fire, just no need to re-up.

9 years with no success worth mentioning is long enough, can’t believe it is even being considered by ownership.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

3 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:

Brook, Fleury, Ylonen, Poehling and probably Norlinder will be NHLers

 

there is no paucity there

 

I said a paucity of *elite* talent. The Habs (except during the Lefebvre era) have seldom had any problem generating a pipeline of serviceable players. In organizational terms, we are subtracting elite-level Price and Weber and replacing them with...nobody comparable. That’s why I say that sustained mediocrity is the likeliest outcome. 

[Commandant]

1 hour ago, hockeyrealist said:

No need to fire, just no need to re-up.

9 years with no success worth mentioning is long enough, can’t believe it is even being considered by ownership.

 

You need to do one or the other. 

 

I don't believe you should ever have a GM working on the last year of his contract. 

 

He doesn't need a five year extension, but some sort of extension is needed so he isn't a lame duck.

[Commandant]

1 hour ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

I said a paucity of *elite* talent. The Habs (except during the Lefebvre era) have seldom had any problem generating a pipeline of serviceable players. In organizational terms, we are subtracting elite-level Price and Weber and replacing them with...nobody comparable. That’s why I say that sustained mediocrity is the likeliest outcome. 

 

I said this in another thread... there are two players contending for the Calder Trophy this year.  Both are close to PPG players.  They are both older than KK, Caufield, Romanov.  One is the same age as Suzuki, and one is older.  The idea that the Habs top prospects have shown they won't be elite talents is a little premature IMO.  Just being in the NHL doesn't mean they have hit their ceilings.  Suzuki in particular has shown real signs of becoming a centre who can score at a 70+ point (or even a PPG+) pace in his prime.  He's at a 60 point pace already.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

29 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

You need to do one or the other. 

 

I don't believe you should ever have a GM working on the last year of his contract. 

 

He doesn't need a five year extension, but some sort of extension is needed so he isn't a lame duck.

 

I wouldn't be outraged by a 2-year extension. Put him on notice that you want to see an effectively retooled blueline or else. See if he can pull another 2021-style rabbit out of his hat.

 

28 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

I said this in another thread... there are two players contending for the Calder Trophy this year.  Both are close to PPG players.  They are both older than KK, Caufield, Romanov.  One is the same age as Suzuki, and one is older.  The idea that the Habs top prospects have shown they won't be elite talents is a little premature IMO.  Just being in the NHL doesn't mean they have hit their ceilings.  Suzuki in particular has shown real signs of becoming a centre who can score at a 70+ point (or even a PPG+) pace in his prime.  He's at a 60 point pace already.

 

I agree that Suzuki is an excellent young player who may well top 70 points eventually. Caufiled, who knows, may become a 30-40 goal guy. Or may not. What I'm saying is that - although I make no claim to being a prospect expert - I for one do not see the nucleus of a Cup contender in this organization. I don't hear anyone looking at us and going "whoa, just wait 2-3 years, they'll be deadly." The guy who for the past 15 years has been our best bet to be a Cup-winning difference maker, Carey Price, can no longer be counted upon to play at an elite level for anything other than short bursts. Weber and Petry will be fishwaste by that time, and Gally will probably be on the downside. There is certainly no analogous franchise player to Price (i.e., a superstar) anywhere in the system. Nor does there seem to be a legit #1 d-man on the horizon. It's not even clear we have any legit top-pairing d-men in the pipeline, let alone a stud #1.

 

Sure, the Habs will ice a decent team - probably a team that, in any given year, will compete for a playoff spot. That's basically what we've been for most of the past quarter-century. And that's not the goal of a rebuild. Or at least it shouldn't be.

[sbhatt]

15 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

I wouldn't be outraged by a 2-year extension. Put him on notice that you want to see an effectively retooled blueline or else. See if he can pull another 2021-style rabbit out of his hat.

 

I'd only give him a one year extension if they MUST give him more rope; he should have a very short leash.  Make it an easy decision to fire him if he makes even one more idiotic mistake.

[GHT120]

12 hours ago, alfredoh2009 said:

... playoff success will be the best way to demonstrate if he deserves an extension 

 

100% agree

[xXx..CK..xXx]

21 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

But Weber and Price are only going to get worse (and they are already pretty terrible)

Mike Smith was pretty terrible in 2014-2015 when he was 33 and just had a 21-6-2 .923 save percentage season at the age of 39.

 

I love how you consistently make blanket statements that turn out to be incorrect and then completely act as though those statements never existed in the first place. I’ve seen it too often within you posts.

 

Price may already be terrible, but so is Jake Allen, considering Allen actually had a losing season compared to Price’s season. One could argue that simply having Price in net helped our team make the playoffs, even if it would be because the team plays better when they have him in the net compared to a backup; there’s still that positive effect.

 

Anyway, the chances that both Weber and Price are completely done are extremely thin, and the chances that neither of them have a better season than this year in a future regular season is something I would be willing to put my money on. 

 

When in the future at least one of then do indeed have better seasons than this year, we will see you cheering them on with statements such as “Wow, who would have thought they still had years in the tank” like it was some huge shock, or it will simply be overlooked that you ever called them “terrible” players who “are only going to get worse”.

[hab29RETIRED]

2 hours ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

Mike Smith was pretty terrible in 2014-2015 when he was 33 and just had a 21-6-2 .923 save percentage season at the age of 39.

 

I love how you consistently make blanket statements that turn out to be incorrect and then completely act as though those statements never existed in the first place. I’ve seen it too often within you posts.

 

Price may already be terrible, but so is Jake Allen, considering Allen actually had a losing season compared to Price’s season. One could argue that simply having Price in net helped our team make the playoffs, even if it would be because the team plays better when they have him in the net compared to a backup; there’s still that positive effect.

 

Anyway, the chances that both Weber and Price are completely done are extremely thin, and the chances that neither of them have a better season than this year in a future regular season is something I would be willing to put my money on. 

 

When in the future at least one of then do indeed have better seasons than this year, we will see you cheering them on with statements such as “Wow, who would have thought they still had years in the tank” like it was some huge shock, or it will simply be overlooked that you ever called them “terrible” players who “are only going to get worse”.

Mike Smith was also pretty damn terrible for a lot of the years in between 2014/2015. This year has been more of an outlier than what he can be expected to provide. When he was in Calgary, the thing everyone was on him and as that he put up great numbers and had great stats in games the flames won handily, but couldn’t make the key saves when the team needed them - completely the opposite of a good goaltender. He’a playing Edmonton because the goalie that Chiarelli signed to a long term deal to be the number 1, isn’t even capable of being a good backup, but what you get from Smith is rolling the dice, and playing his play over the past 6-7 years have been more snake eyes than sevens.  I don’t know about you, but that sure the hell ia not what I was want in a starting goaltender.

 

with respect to Allen. He is a backup. He is expected to be a backup. He did his job a d was a key to get us into the playoffs. If we had to rely on the crap backups we had in previous years, even with how bad Calgary and Vancouver were, we probably wouldn’t have made the playoffs. If we have to rely on Allen to beat the Leafs we are probably done. Allen may help us steal a game or two, but he is not going to be someone who can be counted on to win a seven game series, unless he suddenly has gotten better and more confident than he has been up to now in his career.

[hockeyrealist]

22 hours ago, Commandant said:

 

You need to do one or the other. 

 

I don't believe you should ever have a GM working on the last year of his contract. 

 

He doesn't need a five year extension, but some sort of extension is needed so he isn't a lame duck.

Good point, I took a pretty black vs white stance.

So I will straddle the fence a bit and say anything short of reaching the conference finals means replace him. 
An arbitrary line in the sand type of target isn’t really fair to anyone though.
So, if I put on my consultant hat.

 

9 years is way too long to accept excuses.

 

There are four roles of mgmt:

 

1)PLAN: hmm, did he have one prior to this last offseason?

 

2)LEAD: after how many coaches, player turnarounds should the mgr take responsibility like a leader should?

 

3)ORGANIZE: took him way too long to make changes in Laval, has blown up the coaching staff at both levels (multiple times) and attempted to build organization as he saw fit. But to what results and why so many missteps?

 

4)CONTROL: roster mgmt was poor this year, limited the availability of call ups. Over the years he failed to generate return on investment on prospects like Galchenyuk (in house drafted, groomed players), made some unnecessary gambles on players like Kassian, Weise round 2, etc.

 

He did make some shrewd moves, but has not managed assets very well overall, did not provide a solid core (Price, Weber, Patches) with right supporting cast when two of those key pieces were in their prime.

Has gone through too many staff turnovers as well, which is expensive for development as well as accounting. And of course removes the continuity and consistency that any organization should be striving to achieve.

 

He has not not done well in any of those key four roles as a manager.  He’s made some good moves but blew it by not building a more competitive team when Price/Weber were at their prime. Mismanaging assets like Radu, Marky, Sergachev, etc, failing to find a #1 or #2 centre for years (Plekky was a 3/2 centre).

The number of coaches alone that he hired and fired is way too many times to excuse now.

 

Yada yada, you get my drift.

Replace him this summer if they don’t make conference finals at least, and even that is generous IMO. Should be cup finals or bye bye Bergy.

 

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

3 hours ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

Mike Smith was pretty terrible in 2014-2015 when he was 33 and just had a 21-6-2 .923 save percentage season at the age of 39.

 

I love how you consistently make blanket statements that turn out to be incorrect and then completely act as though those statements never existed in the first place. I’ve seen it too often within you posts.

 

Price may already be terrible, but so is Jake Allen, considering Allen actually had a losing season compared to Price’s season. One could argue that simply having Price in net helped our team make the playoffs, even if it would be because the team plays better when they have him in the net compared to a backup; there’s still that positive effect.

 

Anyway, the chances that both Weber and Price are completely done are extremely thin, and the chances that neither of them have a better season than this year in a future regular season is something I would be willing to put my money on. 

 

When in the future at least one of then do indeed have better seasons than this year, we will see you cheering them on with statements such as “Wow, who would have thought they still had years in the tank” like it was some huge shock, or it will simply be overlooked that you ever called them “terrible” players who “are only going to get worse”.

 

I love how you fixate on one glib sentence here and there as definitive of my posts and analysis. It’s as though I am a politician and you’re a journalist set to pounce on the slightest slip, lest I say something unduly critical of one of your pretties. Sorry if you are butt-hurt.

 

Is Price an awful goalie? No...but he just had an awful season. Last year was not good either. So let’s see, that’s a mediocre year followed by a terrible year from a 33-year-old often-injured goalie who his former coach publicly noted has to deal with constant pain from those injuries. This does not instil optimism about his future. In any case, he is certainly nowhere near the goalie he once was, except for occasional hot streaks. The most to be hoped for is that he will be able to offer consistently good goaltending again at some point.

 

Weber is another story. He too may enjoy temporary upward spikes, but his decline is obvious for all to see. He is not a “terrible” player just yet, although he *is* terrible if measured by his cap hit (as is Price). The problem is that the Habs have to constantly overuse him.

 

I’m hoping both of these guys can raise their game for the playoffs - i.e., temporarily. Certainly the rest will help a lot. But my negative comments concerning them are generally made in the context of attempts to project what we can expect of the Habs going forward, over the next few years (the “retool/rebuild”). Anyone expecting Weber to be a legit stud #1 defenceman 2-3 years from now is simply lost in space; right now he is not capable of being more than a second-pairing guy except for occasional stretches, and yes - he IS only going to get worse, because that’s what declining 35-year-old hockey players do. 

[hab29RETIRED]

45 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

I love how you fixate on one glib sentence here and there as definitive of my posts and analysis. It’s as though I am a politician and you’re a journalist set to pounce on the slightest slip, lest I say something unduly critical of one of your pretties. Sorry if you are butt-hurt.

 

Is Price an awful goalie? No...but he just had an awful season. Last year was not good either. So let’s see, that’s a mediocre year followed by a terrible year from a 33-year-old often-injured goalie who his former coach publicly noted has to deal with constant pain from those injuries. This does not instil optimism about his future. In any case, he is certainly nowhere near the goalie he once was, except for occasional hot streaks. The most to be hoped for is that he will be able to offer consistently good goaltending again at some point.

 

Weber is another story. He too may enjoy temporary upward spikes, but his decline is obvious for all to see. He is not a “terrible” player just yet, although he *is* terrible if measured by his cap hit (as is Price). The problem is that the Habs have to constantly overuse him.

 

I’m hoping both of these guys can raise their game for the playoffs - i.e., temporarily. Certainly the rest will help a lot. But my negative comments concerning them are generally made in the context of attempts to project what we can expect of the Habs going forward, over the next few years (the “retool/rebuild”). Anyone expecting Weber to be a legit stud #1 defenceman 2-3 years from now is simply lost in space; right now he is not capable of being more than a second-pairing guy except for occasional stretches, and yes - he IS only going to get worse, because that’s what declining 35-year-old hockey players do. 

agreed. From what we’ve seen of Romanov, I don’t see a top pairing dman in 2 or 3 years, unless he generates more offence. He may get there and grow - but I don’t see a top pairing now.

 

having said, that I’d bet on him being a top pairing dman in 2-3 years from now over Weber being one - even if I was given really bad odds on Romanov, and overly favourable odds on Weber. Weber is not a top pairing dman anymore. I do think that his mostly horrible play this year was probably due to injuries (the video of him practicing recently was downright scary), and lousy partners. However, it was also that he is no longer the player he was.

 

Gioridano won a Norris a couple of years ago. Had a decline the following year and his play has since dropped of a cliff. He is not going to become an elite top pairing dman again. Either is Weber.  All we can hope for is a solid middle pairing who occasionally raises his game at the right time (hopefully it’s this year’s playoffs), but his days of being an elite top pairing dman are done and his salary is almost double what a middle pairing guy should get.

[GHT120]

5 hours ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

 

... Anyway, the chances that both Weber and Price are completely done are extremely thin, and the chances that neither of them have a better season than this year in a future regular season is something I would be willing to put my money on ...

 

I guess the question for me is whether or not "better" is good enough ... for example, next season Price could have a .910 Sv%, which would be better ... but not IMO good enough.