Lovett's Magnatones

Fire Bergevin

607 posts in this topic

34 minutes ago, Stogey24 said:

I've posted numerous times about Bergevin's playoffs record. The most recent 

 are a missed playoffs and first round knockout. For a team that's all in, that ain't pretty.

There are lots of teams that are "all in" that have failed, there's only one winner. 

 

Adding Drouin and losing Radulov basically left us in the same spot. There's no gain there in point totals. 

You don't think Drouin will score more than 54 points? How will he compare to Radulov in future seasons? 

 

The "defense first" you've mentioned... Ya,  thats all Carey Price. Watch the last 2 games of the playoffs and tell me where the defense was... All season long the defensive lapses were mind boggling. And Just because you call yourself a defense first team, doesn't make it o.k to not score goals  

The team plays a defense first strategy, they are among the hardest teams in the league to score on. TEAM. Carey Price is part of the team 

 

The atlantic divion last year was a cake walk. Tampa lost their #1 centre, Boston is barely a playoff team, leafs were just figuring out who they are , Buffalo shit the bed, Detroit shit the bed, Florida had a considerably down year. Ottawa was the only real threat down the stretch. 

And Montreal whooped them all with a 19-5-6 record, what's your point?  

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I think Drouin will be in the 60pts range this year. Same as Radulov. Which is basically a trade off. Keep both and that's accomplishing something. 

 

You mean Carey is the hardest goalie to score on. 

 

The Atlantic isnt going to be the same division as it was last year is my point.... Tampa will regain one of the best players in the game, Florida made some moves and is  bound for a bounce back year, Leafs are on the verge of being a powerhouse :1vomit:, Ottawa has shown what they can do and I think Buffalo is going to be a dark horse in the Atlantic. 

 

We literally added one scoring threat, but lost another of the same point totals. We've stood still. 

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1 hour ago, Stogey24 said:

I've posted numerous times about Bergevin's playoffs record. The most recent 

 are a missed playoffs and first round knockout. For a team that's all in, that ain't pretty.

 

Adding Drouin and losing Radulov basically left us in the same spot. There's no gain there in point totals. 

 

The "defense first" you've mentioned... Ya,  thats all Carey Price. Watch the last 2 games of the playoffs and tell me where the defense was... All season long the defensive lapses were mind boggling. And Just because you call yourself a defense first team, doesn't make it o.k to not score goals  

 

The atlantic divion last year was a cake walk. Tampa lost their #1 centre, Boston is barely a playoff team, leafs were just figuring out who they are , Buffalo shit the bed, Detroit shit the bed, Florida had a considerably down year. Ottawa was the only real threat down the stretch. 

 

 

 

 

 

If we were a defence first team, we wouldn't have collapsed without Price last year, or when Price sucked for a 3 week stretch this year until MT finally got fired.  There a difference between being a lousy offensive team with a bunch of grunts that lives and dies wit its goaltending on and being a true defene first team like the NJD juggernauts from 1995 to 2003 or the LAK from 5 years ago.

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44 minutes ago, Stogey24 said:

I think Drouin will be in the 60pts range this year. Same as Radulov. Which is basically a trade off. Keep both and that's accomplishing something. 

 

I think Drouin will be better than Radulov. Especially long term. But the Habs didn't trade Drouin for Radulov.

 

If I thought this organization was now shifting its focus to rely on its youth and skill (Drouin, Galchenyuk, Lehkonen, Gallagher) to just score as much as possible while the goaltending shuts the door, I'd be turning a corner on Bergevin.

 

But last year he signed Andrew Shaw and talked about him like he was a major contributor to the Blackhawks cups, and this year signed Karl Alzner, who is one of the worst top four offensive defencemen in the NHL and is absolutely banged up but "plays through it". Most of us agreed there was no need to replace Emelin. He wasn't a top four D and we needed a puck moving LD. What does Bergevin do? He signs a guy who has scored just as much PPG as Emelin in the past five years. If there's a "trade off" to get angry about, it's Alzner for Emelin, because we didn't have to replace Emelin! We had to replace Beaulieu!

 

We're also in year six of Bergevin sidestepping his issue at centre. If Drouin or Galchenyuk emerges this fall, it won't be a stroke of genius for Bergevin. It'll be a lucky accident. And he better hope it's Drouin, because Galchenyuk's deal puts him right into UFA in three years. Otherwise he's sitting with a bunch of cap space in the hope of acquiring a centre. Meaning when this team should be going hard for a Cup, they will once again be putting a bunch of guys in experimental situations. And did the Julien we saw last season, who thought it was good to put Galchenyuk on the fourth line in the playoffs, the Julien we get this fall? 

 

Losing Radulov sucks. Could have made our offence top tier. But we're walking into next season either having Paul Byron on the fourth line after scoring 20 goals, or placing the $3.8 million Andrew Shaw on the fourth line in his second year of a six year contract. That's unless Julien decides Shaw should be a top six centre or something crazy like that. What is this club doing? Where is it going other than circles? I don't have about division wins. The 2014-15 team won their division with a better record than the 2016-17 team. They lost to Tampa in the second round because scoring dried up. What happened in the first round against New York?

 

Six years in I'm just tired of this management. I'm tired of it looking like a country club. I'm tired of playoff performers never being kept. I'm tired of a defence/backcheck first mentality. I'm tired of everything being put on the shoulders of Carey Price. I'm tired of an organization that has decided to play hardball with its most loyal and consistent player of the past 15 years. I'm just tired of Marc Bergevin. 

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23 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

If we were a defence first team, we wouldn't have collapsed without Price last year, or when Price sucked for a 3 week stretch this year until MT finally got fired.  There a difference between being a lousy offensive team with a bunch of grunts that lives and dies wit its goaltending on and being a true defene first team like the NJD juggernauts from 1995 to 2003 or the LAK from 5 years ago.

Ya, exactly  

 

I get what will is saying, but there's just too many nights where this team is absolutely lost in their own end 

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33 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

If we were a defence first team, we wouldn't have collapsed without Price last year, or when Price sucked for a 3 week stretch this year until MT finally got fired.  There a difference between being a lousy offensive team with a bunch of grunts that lives and dies wit its goaltending on and being a true defene first team like the NJD juggernauts from 1995 to 2003 or the LAK from 5 years ago.

 

The Larry Robinson coached New Jersey Devils were the best goal scoring team in the league. It's a common misconception they were "defence first", they were an offensive powerhouse that just so happened to also have a great goalie and two great defencemen. 

 

Would have been nice to have him in the organization buuuuuut J.J. is a good friend of Marc's soooooo

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16 minutes ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

I think Drouin will be better than Radulov. Especially long term. But the Habs didn't trade Drouin for Radulov.

 

If I thought this organization was now shifting its focus to rely on its youth and skill (Drouin, Galchenyuk, Lehkonen, Gallagher) to just score as much as possible while the goaltending shuts the door, I'd be turning a corner on Bergevin.

 

But last year he signed Andrew Shaw and talked about him like he was a major contributor to the Blackhawks cups, and this year signed Karl Alzner, who is one of the worst top four offensive defencemen in the NHL and is absolutely banged up but "plays through it". Most of us agreed there was no need to replace Emelin. He wasn't a top four D and we needed a puck moving LD. What does Bergevin do? He signs a guy who has scored just as much PPG as Emelin in the past five years. If there's a "trade off" to get angry about, it's Alzner for Emelin, because we didn't have to replace Emelin! We had to replace Beaulieu!

 

We're also in year six of Bergevin sidestepping his issue at centre. If Drouin or Galchenyuk emerges this fall, it won't be a stroke of genius for Bergevin. It'll be a lucky accident. And he better hope it's Drouin, because Galchenyuk's deal puts him right into UFA in three years. Otherwise he's sitting with a bunch of cap space in the hope of acquiring a centre. Meaning when this team should be going hard for a Cup, they will once again be putting a bunch of guys in experimental situations. And did the Julien we saw last season, who thought it was good to put Galchenyuk on the fourth line in the playoffs, the Julien we get this fall? 

 

Losing Radulov sucks. Could have made our offence top tier. But we're walking into next season either having Paul Byron on the fourth line after scoring 20 goals, or placing the $3.8 million Andrew Shaw on the fourth line in his second year of a six year contract. That's unless Julien decides Shaw should be a top six centre or something crazy like that. What is this club doing? Where is it going other than circles? I don't have about division wins. The 2014-15 team won their division with a better record than the 2016-17 team. They lost to Tampa in the second round because scoring dried up. What happened in the first round against New York?

 

Six years in I'm just tired of this management. I'm tired of it looking like a country club. I'm tired of playoff performers never being kept. I'm tired of a defence/backcheck first mentality. I'm tired of everything being put on the shoulders of Carey Price. I'm tired of an organization that has decided to play hardball with its most loyal and consistent player of the past 15 years. I'm just tired of Marc Bergevin. 

Good post. 

 

I can appreciate the posters on here who have optimism towards Bergevin and his counter parts, but I'm tired of the same old run around . It's like we have a different image every year. 

 

I think your spot on with putting guys in experimental positions. That's not where we should be at this point 

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1 hour ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

I think Drouin will be better than Radulov. Especially long term. But the Habs didn't trade Drouin for Radulov.

 

If I thought this organization was now shifting its focus to rely on its youth and skill (Drouin, Galchenyuk, Lehkonen, Gallagher) to just score as much as possible while the goaltending shuts the door, I'd be turning a corner on Bergevin.

 

But last year he signed Andrew Shaw and talked about him like he was a major contributor to the Blackhawks cups, and this year signed Karl Alzner, who is one of the worst top four offensive defencemen in the NHL and is absolutely banged up but "plays through it". Most of us agreed there was no need to replace Emelin. He wasn't a top four D and we needed a puck moving LD. What does Bergevin do? He signs a guy who has scored just as much PPG as Emelin in the past five years. If there's a "trade off" to get angry about, it's Alzner for Emelin, because we didn't have to replace Emelin! We had to replace Beaulieu!

 

We're also in year six of Bergevin sidestepping his issue at centre. If Drouin or Galchenyuk emerges this fall, it won't be a stroke of genius for Bergevin. It'll be a lucky accident. And he better hope it's Drouin, because Galchenyuk's deal puts him right into UFA in three years. Otherwise he's sitting with a bunch of cap space in the hope of acquiring a centre. Meaning when this team should be going hard for a Cup, they will once again be putting a bunch of guys in experimental situations. And did the Julien we saw last season, who thought it was good to put Galchenyuk on the fourth line in the playoffs, the Julien we get this fall? 

 

Losing Radulov sucks. Could have made our offence top tier. But we're walking into next season either having Paul Byron on the fourth line after scoring 20 goals, or placing the $3.8 million Andrew Shaw on the fourth line in his second year of a six year contract. That's unless Julien decides Shaw should be a top six centre or something crazy like that. What is this club doing? Where is it going other than circles? I don't have about division wins. The 2014-15 team won their division with a better record than the 2016-17 team. They lost to Tampa in the second round because scoring dried up. What happened in the first round against New York?

 

Six years in I'm just tired of this management. I'm tired of it looking like a country club. I'm tired of playoff performers never being kept. I'm tired of a defence/backcheck first mentality. I'm tired of everything being put on the shoulders of Carey Price. I'm tired of an organization that has decided to play hardball with its most loyal and consistent player of the past 15 years. I'm just tired of Marc Bergevin. 

 

Yep. Welcome to Team Whack-a-Mole.

 

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We traded Sergachev for Drouin.

 

Not to mention we did that before losing Radulov to free agency when by all accounts he was expected to resign with us due to what was said to be a solid offer.

 

Those who compare Radulov to Drouin should ask themselves whether or not they'd prefer to have Radulov and Sergachev or Drouin? Or how about Radulov and Drouin or Drouin?  Even if I add Alzner's name next to Drouin in the first example, it's still not that pretty. Next season, Sergachev would not have had an expensive contract and there's a possibility we could have offered slightly more to Radulov and encouraged him to stay. In the end, I'm not blind to the fact that we may have lost Radulov anyway but the point remains the same in that we lost one player for nothing and traded away a key asset to acquire the "better replacement".

 

In addition, Sergachev was to potentially be Markov's replacement of the future and even present. We have still yet to resign Markov and as a result lost Markov's replacement and still don't have Markov on the roster either. We can be patient and see how things play out, and I've always been of the belief that the "playing out" of this will involve resigning Markov but as things stand, we've got marginally better at offense and marginally worse at defense if I'm being generous. Those who don't see that seem to be the ones with the blinders on.

 

+Shlemko, Alzner, Morrow?

-Sergachev, Markov*, Emelin

 

There seems to be a bit of an argument going on here that I'm not really a part of. Those who are defending seem to be mainly defending Bergevin, with a mixed bag of heavy duty Drouin fanatics sprinkled in saying "wait until he shows you".

 

Those who are complaining about this off season, many of them seem to be those who haven't been happy with Bergevin for

quite some time and so they're looking for

anything to jump on.

 

We each have our own opinions but I don't feel as though it always needs to be about Bergevin specifically. My opinion has nothing to do with him, but the team in general and I think we could have addressed our needs at center and LHD a little differently this off season rather than trade away our best prospect who could have filled the void himself. We also then loaded up at wing when there are still question marks at center. We do have plenty of capable centers on the roster but we also don't have any without question marks.

 

Danault: Is he really a top 6 center?

Plekanec: Will he be able to rebound? It's more possible than people think if he works hard this off season.

Galchenyuk: Can he be trusted enough by the coaches as a well rounded 200 foot player? Does this even matter?

Drouin: Was he brought here to even be a center? Is he better at wing or center?

Shaw, Mitchell, DeLaRose: Top 6 centers? No

 

Our off season had some good moves and probably some that are being completely overlooked. Will Jerabek bring the goodness? Can Hemsky stay healthy and produce? Is Schlemko better than expected? Can Drouin be our Sidney Crosby? (I have high expectations as well)

 

There are some positive possibilities out there but from what I've seen of the debate, you have those who seem to support no matter what on one side and those who to seem to be down in the dumps even when the Habs are playing hockey in May or Nashville has been eliminated. As a result, the specific arguments can lose their value.

 

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I think each poster has to be taken on their own merits (for that matter, so does every post). I'm definitely in the "fire Bergevin" crowd, but anyone who takes the time to read my posts should know that I praise his moves when they seem to me to be praiseworthy. E.g., I'm good with the Price contract, I love the Drouin contract, I endorsed the Drouin trade. I even praised some moves I've since regretted praising (e.g., I though Shaw was a good pick-up and only moderately overpaid). But praising this or that specific move doesn't mean I don't think he should be fired. That would be a decision based on overall patterns in his body of work. I can like a tree and condemn the forest.

 

The other thing is that the truth is not always to be found in the middle ground between two points. Just because some people are adamant that MB sucks or is great, it doesn't follow that one of these sides isn't right. No doubt Houle had his defenders as well. Problem is, they were flat-out wrong. Anyone who had demonized Houle from Day One would have been on the right side of the argument all along.

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Here's a good read of an evaluation of the habs moves this summer.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/three-biggest-losers-nhl-off-season-far/

 

have to say - it's pretty much exactly how I feel 

 

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1 hour ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Here's a good read of an evaluation of the habs moves this summer.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/three-biggest-losers-nhl-off-season-far/

 

have to say - it's pretty much exactly how I feel 

 

 

The overall analysis seems sound, but in terms of this summer, it's too soon to say. We still have to see how MB proposes to fix the comical lack of puck-moving D-men, and more specifically the hole where Markov used to be. Right now the roster as a whole is quite likely worse than it was last year, given the subtraction of 40+ points from the back end (Markov). And even achieving this heroic feat required shipping out our only blue-chip prospect.

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Advanced stats wise... expected gf/ga the habs are a small bit, very small right now over last year. 

 

And that is assuming we lose markov, and do nothing with 9 million in cap space. 

 

Overall the summer is better than you think. 

 

That said, the biggest and most valid criticism of Bergevin remains.  In 6 off seasons (including this one) he's done nothing to address his team's biggest weakness... the #1 Centre. 

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8 hours ago, Stogey24 said:

Adding Drouin and losing Radulov basically left us in the same spot. There's no gain there in point totals. 

 

A bit easier to give a 22yr old like Drouin a $5.5, 6 yr deal than $6.25 5 yr deal for a 31 yr old like Radulov, isn't it? 

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On 7/11/2017 at 5:08 PM, xXx..CK..xXx said:

:lol:

 

That took me a lot longer to understand than it should have. Funny indeed.

 

As for the topic being discussed, I've literally always been a Habs optimist but when we were discussing the loss of Radulov, many people argued that Drouin was better than him, so the loss of Radulov would feel less meaningful. One could have argued that the loss of Radulov due to injury (last season) would have been huge as well but when

we acquired Drouin, the initial reaction was that we had added yet another piece to our offensive unit. When we lost Radulov, it was only then that people seemed to point out that Drouin's ceiling is astronomical and that he could improve our offensive unit single-handedly even with the loss of Radulov. It is in that sense that it makes sense to worry about the "what if" he gets injured. Pacioretty is proven but outside of Galchenyuk, Lehkonen and Gallagher's potential there's not much outside of Drouin and we are weak at center. 

 

I think even those who are "rational" about the team would like to see us in that inner circle of top tier contenders since we hover every year. That list of teams includes Pittsburgh, who should be the current model of success, and they were able to win the cup without a significant piece in Letang. In addition, they could have won had either of their goalies gone down as well. 

 

I caught myself singing E-40 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zbw3KzgHBU) as I was reading your post, till I got to the end and I got my nope ( :D ) I don't think I am ready for the Habs being in the same basement as the Pens in and after the years of Mario was messed from the clutch and grab, hope to win a lottery or two in a year with a can't miss gen talent player. That is what Edmonton is doing. I don't want to sound like this and I will try to keep a piece of my optimism that MB can become a Pollack because Molson see that 'celling' in him, well I hope anyway.

(post post): I would like to have a little credit for not calling any Habs upper brass by anything nasty going through my (sometimes, tiny) head ;)

 

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52 minutes ago, DON said:

A bit easier to give a 22yr old like Drouin a $5.5, 6 yr deal than $6.25 5 yr deal for a 31 yr old like Radulov, isn't it? 

I don't think it is when one of those contracts came at the cost of teenage year old Sergachev but it's just a personal opinion of mine. I guess I wish the worst for him at this point so I can be wrong. Either way, I look forward to seeing Drouin on the Habs.

 

4 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

I think each poster has to be taken on their own merits (for that matter, so does every post). I'm definitely in the "fire Bergevin" crowd, but anyone who takes the time to read my posts should know that I praise his moves when they seem to me to be praiseworthy. E.g., I'm good with the Price contract, I love the Drouin contract, I endorsed the Drouin trade. I even praised some moves I've since regretted praising (e.g., I though Shaw was a good pick-up and only moderately overpaid). But praising this or that specific move doesn't mean I don't think he should be fired. That would be a decision based on overall patterns in his body of work. I can like a tree and condemn the forest.

 

The other thing is that the truth is not always to be found in the middle ground between two points. Just because some people are adamant that MB sucks or is great, it doesn't follow that one of these sides isn't right. No doubt Houle had his defenders as well. Problem is, they were flat-out wrong. Anyone who had demonized Houle from Day One would have been on the right side of the argument all along.

I agree that it's very possible and even likely that one side is right about Bergevin, one way or the other. As much as I've gotten over some of the things I was upset about a few years ago, I've had my doubts about some moves of his for years now. With that being said, I was refering to exactly what you pointed out you aren't.

 

There are those who on both sides seem to never agree with the other side. In addition, unlike you with Shaw, the example would be that most things that Bergevin haters, for instance, do agree with, would be the obvious things like Pacioretty's contract, Price signing, etc. Those signings are met with mediocre approval whereas anything that is moderately debatable is automatically assumed to be exuberantly wrong. Those fans seem to want the forest burned without even searching if there is anything of value within its boundaries. 

 

It is in that sense that neither side is right in my opinion. Each tree should be looked at with an open mind and given a chance to thrive. Some people do that, some people don't. When the forest does grow, it might look different than anyone imagined.

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I've given Bergevin credit for a lot of things.

 

- He's handled the cap well for the most part.

- He usually gets the best of a trade.

- The team is extremely deep at wing.

- If heaven forbid Price gets a career ending injury, the club is deep in goaltending prospects and won't be far from finding a new goalie internally.

- I like Drouin a lot.

- I never thought he would fire Michel Therrien and he did.

- With exception to 15-16, the Habs are always competitive (and even then, they were competitive early)

 

If all you want to be is competitive and "beat the Maple Leafs in the regular season", then you're probably very happy with Marc Bergevin. If you want a Stanley Cup, I have absolutely no idea how you could be happy with him. I don't know how someone could see the results this summer and feel like this team is ready for the Stanley Cup. They feel ready to compete for another division title but not much else. They say there's players that get you to the playoffs and players that get you through the playoffs. Montreal is built to just get to the playoffs. It's all the GM seems to want too.

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2 hours ago, DON said:

A bit easier to give a 22yr old like Drouin a $5.5, 6 yr deal than $6.25 5 yr deal for a 31 yr old like Radulov, isn't it? 

It has nothing to do with contracts between Drouin and Radulov. I just think we had an opportunity to get seriously dangerous up front.

 

Too much money or not for Radulov, we need to win now. Being an arm chair g.m here, but I would have went 5 years at 7 million for him.

 

I watched that guy night in and night out bring something to the Habs line up that no one else could. He was this team's best player in the playoffs and most of the regular season. Passion, dedication, drive. The guy had it all. Add  Drouin to that little recipe, the winger situation in Montreal just became elite. 

 

 

At the end of the day is that 1 exrta million a year we would have had to give Radulov, worth losing 20 goals and 35 assists. I think those are sustainable  numbers over the next 3-4 years. 

 

Hell we're paying Weber giant money well into his 30's, but Bergy has no issue with that. 

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10 hours ago, Stogey24 said:

Too much money or not for Radulov, we need to win now. Being an arm chair g.m here, but I would have went 5 years at 7 million for him.

I might of as well, but again to even match Dallas it would take $7.1+m/yr to equal and do you even know if Radulov had any intention at all to resign in Quebec or his agent was simply looking for a contender who would putmost $ in his and Radulov's pocket? We shall see how it plays out for Dallas.

Hell we're paying Weber giant money well into his 30's, but Bergy has no issue with that. 

Weber $7.8m is 4th d in NHL, while some ex-hab is #1 at $9/yr so maybe Bergevin sees better value in Weber.

 

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Ya, that's another question I guess. Did he have any intention of even staying in Montreal. 

 

Seems like a pay day was all Radulov wanted. Actually pissed me off a little bit, but can't really blame him 

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8 minutes ago, Stogey24 said:

Ya, that's another question I guess. Did he have any intention of even staying in Montreal. 

 

Seems like a pay day was all Radulov wanted. Actually pissed me off a little bit, but can't really blame him 

No, it will be his last big contract so what would you do? Take the best offer or give bit of discount to team you only played 1 year for? Not as mercenary as a Hossa who played for 4 teams in 3 years and went to final with 3 different teams in 3 years before he won cup and found Hawks were acceptable for him.

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1 hour ago, Stogey24 said:

Ya, that's another question I guess. Did he have any intention of even staying in Montreal. 

 

Seems like a pay day was all Radulov wanted. Actually pissed me off a little bit, but can't really blame him 

He wanted a two year deal. Bergevin gave him one year and told the media it was because he wanted to give financial room to prospects. 

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11 minutes ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

He wanted a two year deal. Bergevin gave him one year and told the media it was because he wanted to give financial room to prospects. 

I've heard differently, but it doesn't at all surprise me Bergevin  would say something like that. 

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1 hour ago, Stogey24 said:

I've heard differently, but it doesn't at all surprise me Bergevin  would say something like that. 

 

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/montreal-canadiens-take-a-gamble-on-radulovs-checkered-history/article30731954/

 

Quote

Radulov should also be motivated by his show-me contract: one year for $5.75-million (U.S.) – a bargain price given Bergevin vied with the Detroit Red Wings, among others, for his signature.

 

Term was key, Bergevin said; he wanted to avoid “boxing out” younger prospects.

 

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