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Scott462    54
56 minutes ago, Stogey24 said:

Now Bergevin has cap space that he can do virtually nothing with; without giving up something in return.  

 

Are you sure about that?

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Stogey24    221
30 minutes ago, Scott462 said:

 

Are you sure about that?

.... you tell me

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Trizzak    413
3 hours ago, Scott462 said:

 

Are you sure about that?

 

 

...

 

I have nothing to add here. I just can't read "Are you sure about that?" without thinking about this.

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Commandant    599
5 hours ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

I think while the issue is fair to bring up, we have to think that there weren't many more options out there. Markov and Alzner were the best left pairing defensemen available in free agency and even at this point, Markov isn't an ideal top pairing guy for mostly reasons that have little to nothing to do with skill. I still would have signed him for this season, but it's fair to question whether or not he was the real answer either.

 

There are two things that are very clear to me:

 

1) We don't have the d-corps that anyone envisioned, Bergevin included.

 

2) The options to solve that issue were thin. Despite my love for Markov, it almost feels like the timing was right in an eerie way. This is outside of the fact that we need some skill on the top pair but if that weren't uniquely true to us, I'm still not sure he's the best solution for a team that wants to compete for the cup.

 

I still would have preferred him over any of our other options without a doubt.

 

I personally think we'll see either Streit or Alzner on the top pair. I think Schlemko should stay on the 3rd. It'll probably be Alzner and Streit on the power play. 

 

What I would do:

Streit-Weber (hate on)

Alzner-Petry

Schlemko-Benn

 

What I see happening:

 

Alzner-Weber

Schlemko-Petry

Streit-Benn

 

 

 

You want streit, a guy who played 3 playoff games and was a healthy scratch for 22 playoff games... a guy who averaged 18:45 last season in the regular season, to play on the top pair??

 

Really?

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xXx..CK..xXx    125
1 hour ago, Commandant said:

 

You want streit, a guy who played 3 playoff games and was a healthy scratch for 22 playoff games... a guy who averaged 18:45 last season in the regular season, to play on the top pair??

 

Really?

Out of the players we have on defense? Yes. He can still move the puck in the offensive zone.

 

Had Streit played 82 games last season he would have had 32 points. Instead, he finished with 27 points in 68 games. Jeff Petry played 80 games and finished with 28 points and is a shoe in for our number 3 spot. Why is it so crazy of a thought when Weber would also be the best partner to insulate Streit? I think Streit should be in our top 6 but place him with Petry or Benn and I'm sure we should have some fun in our own end. 

 

LAST SEASON

 

Shea Weber: 78 Games - 42 points (.54 ppg)

Jeff Petry: 80 Games - 28 points (.35 ppg)

Mark Streit: 68 Games - 27 points (.40 ppg)

David Schlemko: 62 Games - 18 points (.29 ppg)

Jordie Benn: 71 Games - 17 points (.24 ppg)

Karl Alzner: 82 Games - 13 points (.16 ppg)

Brandon Davidson: 38 Games - 3 points (.08 ppg)

 

Ron Hainsey had 3 points in 16 games with Pittsburgh and Mark Streit had 6 points in 19 games with Pittsburgh.

 

Markov would have been a better option than all of them. With that being said, we can complain about what we don't have or play what we actually do have. I'd like for our first pair to be able to create offense in the offensive done. I see no reason outside of age that Schlemko is any better of an option and good luck with Alzner creating anything in the offensive zone. I wouldn't expect Streit to remain a top pairing defenseman for the long term but I still don't see how he's not the best option at this point, unless all we want our top pair to do is shut the other team down. 

 

 

 

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Commandant    599

Why?

 

Because we want Shea Weber to play against the other team's best forwards. 

 

I don't want Mark Streit on the ice against Sidney Crosby, Austin Matthews, Alex Ovechkin, etc....   28 points last season or not.  As good as Weber is, he can't do everything.  We saw that last season when Emelin's game fell apart and the pairings had to be changed. 

 

Streit isn't even particularly fast, not at this stage of his career; so he doesn't even have that going for him.  Its not like he can be retrieving the loose pucks while Weber protects the net.  He doesn't have the speed to be a yin and yang pairing like Weber/Josi was in Nashville. 

 

He got those points because he wasn't playing against those types of players. His minutes were heavily managed with 3rd and 4th line competition and heavy offensive zone starts.  There is a reason for that. 

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Mark Streit with Weber. 

 

I love it.

 

Just a reminder that if the Habs paid Markov what he wanted and never signed Alzner, we could be looking at

 

Markov - Weber

Schlemko - Petry

Streit - Benn

 

With PP pairings of Markov - Weber and Streit - Petry. 

 

But hey, gotta sign the 7D for Washington in the playoffs for five years. 

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xXx..CK..xXx    125
1 hour ago, Commandant said:

Why?

 

Because we want Shea Weber to play against the other team's best forwards. 

 

I don't want Mark Streit on the ice against Sidney Crosby, Austin Matthews, Alex Ovechkin, etc....   28 points last season or not.  As good as Weber is, he can't do everything.  We saw that last season when Emelin's game fell apart and the pairings had to be changed. 

 

Streit isn't even particularly fast, not at this stage of his career; so he doesn't even have that going for him.  Its not like he can be retrieving the loose pucks while Weber protects the net.  He doesn't have the speed to be a yin and yang pairing like Weber/Josi was in Nashville. 

 

He got those points because he wasn't playing against those types of players. His minutes were heavily managed with 3rd and 4th line competition and heavy offensive zone starts.  There is a reason for that. 

 

It's nice to know you guys are offering up potential solutions in the meantime. Oh yeah but I forgot that's not your job.

 

I remember last season you said the exact same thing about Markov that you're saying now about Streit soon before he was placed on the top pair and you accepted it. Emelin's 10 points have nothing on Streit when it comes to that dimension of the game. He's more comparable to Beaulieu, who also didn't work out but who didn't have the experience that Streit does.

 

Mark Streit on the top pairing is just as "wonderful" as Schlemko would be. I'm one of those who said our defense needs something else and also one of those who was upset about losing Sergachev since we had no one to replace Markov in the long term.

 

You don't like Streit on the top pairing? That's fine. I don't like Schlemko on the top pair and think Alzner as it stands will be on the top pair. Streit might be the option in my mind for the wrong reasons but I think him being there would give us the most balanced pairings unless Jerabek cracks the lineup.

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BCHabnut    146

Petry is the only legit top 3 defense besides weber. It's sad. I've always believed in team balance over individuals. 6 legitimate top 6 with two centres. 4 legitimate top 4. And a legitimate starter. I haven't seen this in Montreal in forever. They needed a number 3 defenseman for a long time before petry. Now they need a a number 2 and two top 6 centres. 

 

Pacioretty galchenyuk drouin

Lehkonen plekanec /danault Gallagher

 

 

Petry weber

Alzner jerabek 

 

Price

 

At least 4 of these players do not belong in the top 6 or top 4.

 

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DON    9
14 minutes ago, BCHabnut said:

Pacioretty galchenyuk drouin

Lehkonen plekanec /danault Gallagher

Petry weber

Alzner jerabek 

 

At least 4 of these players do not belong in the top 6 or top 4.

 

What are you talking about? So which four or five are checkers and depth d-men? 

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BCHabnut    146

Plekanec danault jerabek would likely be depth on a stronger team. For sure 2 of them. There is no perfect team, but to me the top 6 and top 4 are not up to snuff. On paper. 

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Stogey24    221

I'm pretty sure we have the second most expensive d-core in the league too. Don't quote me on that though 

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Link67    95
13 minutes ago, Stogey24 said:

I'm pretty sure we have the second most expensive d-core in the league too. Don't quote me on that though 

 

You aren't That far off, I got Pittsburgh, Florida, Rangers, Nashville, Jets, Calgary, San Jose, who have a more expensive top 7 than us.

 

the one striking thing about it though, is Pittsburgh is arguably the only defense that is as underwhelming as ours for all that money. Everyone else on that list may be more expensive but for good reason, they are better than ours entirely.

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Commandant    599
8 hours ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

 

It's nice to know you guys are offering up potential solutions in the meantime. Oh yeah but I forgot that's not your job.

 

I remember last season you said the exact same thing about Markov that you're saying now about Streit soon before he was placed on the top pair and you accepted it. Emelin's 10 points have nothing on Streit when it comes to that dimension of the game. He's more comparable to Beaulieu, who also didn't work out but who didn't have the experience that Streit does.

 

Mark Streit on the top pairing is just as "wonderful" as Schlemko would be. I'm one of those who said our defense needs something else and also one of those who was upset about losing Sergachev since we had no one to replace Markov in the long term.

 

You don't like Streit on the top pairing? That's fine. I don't like Schlemko on the top pair and think Alzner as it stands will be on the top pair. Streit might be the option in my mind for the wrong reasons but I think him being there would give us the most balanced pairings unless Jerabek cracks the lineup.

 

You are blaming me for pointing out that Streit is not a good option?

 

You should be blaming Bergevin for not acquiring a good option for the top 4, not me. 

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Commandant    599
9 hours ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

Mark Streit with Weber. 

 

I love it.

 

Just a reminder that if the Habs paid Markov what he wanted and never signed Alzner, we could be looking at

 

Markov - Weber

Schlemko - Petry

Streit - Benn

 

With PP pairings of Markov - Weber and Streit - Petry. 

 

But hey, gotta sign the 7D for Washington in the playoffs for five years. 

 

Saying Alzner was a 7th D is disingenious.  Its like saying Ovechkin was a 3rd liner. Both ignore the fact that neither player would have been in that position if they were 100% healthy

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Link67    95
8 hours ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

 

It's nice to know you guys are offering up potential solutions in the meantime. Oh yeah but I forgot that's not your job.

 

I remember last season you said the exact same thing about Markov that you're saying now about Streit soon before he was placed on the top pair and you accepted it. Emelin's 10 points have nothing on Streit when it comes to that dimension of the game. He's more comparable to Beaulieu, who also didn't work out but who didn't have the experience that Streit does.

 

Mark Streit on the top pairing is just as "wonderful" as Schlemko would be. I'm one of those who said our defense needs something else and also one of those who was upset about losing Sergachev since we had no one to replace Markov in the long term.

 

You don't like Streit on the top pairing? That's fine. I don't like Schlemko on the top pair and think Alzner as it stands will be on the top pair. Streit might be the option in my mind for the wrong reasons but I think him being there would give us the most balanced pairings unless Jerabek cracks the lineup.

 

You are in for a rude awakening this season if you think Streit is going to be as effective as Schlemko, go check on other teams forums and see if the San Jose community is as thrilled about losing Schlemko as Philly or Pittsburgh are of losing Streit.

 

The point is moot though, Alzner will be the top pairing guy with Weber, there just is no choice at this point. Schlemko and Petry will be the second pair while Streit and Benn can be the 3rd. With the eggs we have on this team, that is how they should be placed in the basket based on their capabilities, it is not ideal, but it is reality. 

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1 minute ago, Commandant said:

 

Saying Alzner was a 7th D is disingenious.  Its like saying Ovechkin was a 3rd liner. Both ignore the fact that neither player would have been in that position if they were 100% healthy

He was unhealthy all year because he's broken. He lost his top pair spot then lost his second pair spot then couldn't make a good argument to stay in the lineup over six other defencemen. That was his season. And Montreal gave him five years for it. 

 

This signing is as dumb as when the Leafs signed Komisarek.

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Link67    95
1 minute ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

He was unhealthy all year because he's broken. He lost his top pair spot then lost his second pair spot then couldn't make a good argument to stay in the lineup over six other defencemen. That was his season. And Montreal gave him five years for it. 

 

This signing is as dumb as when the Leafs signed Komisarek.

 

come on man, I get you don't like Alzner, its screaming at me loud and clear but are you going to be negatively biased about everything Alzner now until this contract is up?

 

He had a groin/hamstring issue that plagued him all year, you know what generally cures that? inactivity for a prolonged length of time, he decided to play through the pain and accept whatever role he was given in the meantime until he could not anymore. You think all these months off and working out when it heals isn't going to allow him back to 100% in October? We had to get in a bidding war for him, as many as 9 teams were reportedly in on him, we had to give him the helicopter tour and all the bells and whistles just to try and stand above the rest.

 

have you ever seen a bidding war for a player who is broken and has no chance to be anything more than a depth player with bad contract? Me neither.

 

You want to fault this signing because he is not a puck moving new age dman? go ahead, you want to act like Alzner is not a top 4 Dman on most NHL teams? that is simply not accurate, his style might not be what we envision we needed, but he is a rock solid proven player at preventing goals and minimizing mistakes in his own zone, that makes him a good Dman in my book, new age or not.

 

 

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xXx..CK..xXx    125
59 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

You are blaming me for pointing out that Streit is not a good option?

 

You should be blaming Bergevin for not acquiring a good option for the top 4, not me. 

I'm not blaming you for not acquiring a top 4 defenseman. I'm staying the obvious by including someone who wouldn't conventionally fit in the role since we don't have one. Non matter who we put there, they don't belong there. Alzner is the best candidate but that doesn't help initiate offense for our better lines and then our other pairings are weaker as well. 

 

You are the one blaming me for trying to come up with a solution. Do I think Streit is a top pairing guy? I don't. Do I think he belongs in the top 6 over Davidson? I do. Do I think Streit might be scary on a pairing with Petry or Benn? I do. Of course it's not an ideal situation trying to cover someone's deficiencies by placing him on the top pair. That I understand. But if we're going to play the cards we're dealt, I don't think it would be the worst option.

 

If someone can show me, once again, more BALANCED pairings with Streit on the other pairs, I'm all for it. 

53 minutes ago, Link67 said:

 

You are in for a rude awakening this season if you think Streit is going to be as effective as Schlemko, go check on other teams forums and see if the San Jose community is as thrilled about losing Schlemko as Philly or Pittsburgh are of losing Streit.

 

The point is moot though, Alzner will be the top pairing guy with Weber, there just is no choice at this point. Schlemko and Petry will be the second pair while Streit and Benn can be the 3rd. With the eggs we have on this team, that is how they should be placed in the basket based on their capabilities, it is not ideal, but it is reality. 

I get that you're high on Schlemko but San Jose exposed more of their defensemen compared to other teams for a reason. I expect decent things out of Schlemko but he is worse offensively than Streit. Defensively and offensively combined, you'd have to give the edge to Schlemko and thus sums up my point of trusting him with Petry or Benn more than I would Streit.

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Link67    95
21 minutes ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

I'm not blaming you for not acquiring a top 4 defenseman. I'm staying the obvious by including someone who wouldn't conventionally fit in the role since we don't have one. Non matter who we put there, they don't belong there. Alzner is the best candidate but that doesn't help initiate offense for our better lines and then our other pairings are weaker as well. 

 

You are the one blaming me for trying to come up with a solution. Do I think Streit is a top pairing guy? I don't. Do I think he belongs in the top 6 over Davidson? I do. Do I think Streit might be scary on a pairing with Petry or Benn? I do. Of course it's not an ideal situation trying to cover someone's deficiencies by placing him on the top pair. That I understand. But if we're going to play the cards we're dealt, I don't think it would be the worst option.

 

If someone can show me, once again, more BALANCED pairings with Streit on the other pairs, I'm all for it. 

I get that you're high on Schlemko but San Jose exposed more of their defensemen compared to other teams for a reason. I expect decent things out of Schlemko but he is worse offensively than Streit. Defensively and offensively combined, you'd have to give the edge to Schlemko and thus sums up my point of trusting him with Petry or Benn more than I would Streit.

 

I'm not high on Schlemko, I just know he is a very solid #5, and for us will likely have to be a #4, but he is without a doubt ahead of Streit at this point there is no debating that, the notion that you think Streit should be placed higher in the pairings than Schlemko against better opposition and more 5 on 5 ice time is the point I am trying to bang on here.

 

Streit will already be getting a lot of PP time now that Markov is gone, Schlemko will not. But who should be on a higher D pairing is not debatable, you put the younger, faster, and better Dman against the better opposition, that is only logical.

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dlbalr    645
1 hour ago, Link67 said:

You aren't That far off, I got Pittsburgh, Florida, Rangers, Nashville, Jets, Calgary, San Jose, who have a more expensive top 7 than us.

 

 

Add Detroit to that list (which really surprises me).

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Dalhabs    78

Maybe we have the cheapest top6 forwards in the league? And the most expensive bottom 6...

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6 hours ago, Link67 said:

 

come on man, I get you don't like Alzner, its screaming at me loud and clear but are you going to be negatively biased about everything Alzner now until this contract is up?

 

He had a groin/hamstring issue that plagued him all year, you know what generally cures that? inactivity for a prolonged length of time, he decided to play through the pain and accept whatever role he was given in the meantime until he could not anymore. You think all these months off and working out when it heals isn't going to allow him back to 100% in October? We had to get in a bidding war for him, as many as 9 teams were reportedly in on him, we had to give him the helicopter tour and all the bells and whistles just to try and stand above the rest.

 

have you ever seen a bidding war for a player who is broken and has no chance to be anything more than a depth player with bad contract? Me neither.

 

You want to fault this signing because he is not a puck moving new age dman? go ahead, you want to act like Alzner is not a top 4 Dman on most NHL teams? that is simply not accurate, his style might not be what we envision we needed, but he is a rock solid proven player at preventing goals and minimizing mistakes in his own zone, that makes him a good Dman in my book, new age or not.

 

 

- I don't like the signing at all. Let's see if his play shuts me up. I highly doubt it. 

 

- Plenty of banged up players still got bidding wars. Komisarek and Volchenkov are the two best examples. Montreal tried to sign Lecavalier after he was bought out, failed, and went for Briere instead. Another bought out veteran with declining skill and injury issues. Worked out great Eh?

 

- I think he's going to play through injuries like he always does and be unable to play meaningful minutes in the top four. He will be a bottom pair defenceman by the following season and a buyout option by year 3.

 

- He was proven the years before 16-17. He wasn't proving anything in 16-17 except that Washington was fine with keeping Orlov over him and no Caps fan would have said that in 15-16.

 

He's more than welcome to show better offensive ability and stay dependable in 17-18 and shut me up. Highly doubt it. Enjoy building excuses for him and Bergevin. 

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2 hours ago, Dalhabs said:

Maybe we have the cheapest top6 forwards in the league? And the most expensive bottom 6...

 

It's an interesting question. If true, it shows the difference between YOUNG talent, whether developed from within or acquired, and UFAs/vets. Gally, Galy, and Patches are top-6 FW developed internally (mostly on Gainey/Gauthier's dime) and Drouin was acquired in return for a prospect. All are on cheap contracts, even if Patches' is a result of some bizarrely self-defeating negotiating by the Pacioretty side. By contrast, our D is the most obvious casualty of MB's inability to develop players, although the Pleks and Shaw contracts are examples of the same thing.

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xXx..CK..xXx    125
6 hours ago, Link67 said:

 

I'm not high on Schlemko, I just know he is a very solid #5, and for us will likely have to be a #4, but he is without a doubt ahead of Streit at this point there is no debating that, the notion that you think Streit should be placed higher in the pairings than Schlemko against better opposition and more 5 on 5 ice time is the point I am trying to bang on here.

 

Streit will already be getting a lot of PP time now that Markov is gone, Schlemko will not. But who should be on a higher D pairing is not debatable, you put the younger, faster, and better Dman against the better opposition, that is only logical.

If Streit is your 6th defenseman, then Schlemko should be your 4th or 5th. You seem to be arguin a point I'm not trying to make. What I'm saying is that I'd rather have Streit on the top pairing than Schlemko.

 

If the top pairing is Alzner-Weber, then Schlemko should be on the second pair and Streit should see limited minutes on the third pair, along with some PP time.

 

If for whatever reason, the coaching staff sees Alzner as a complimentary partner to Petry, then I'd rather see Streit on the top pair than

Schlemko.

 

If you put the younger, faster defenseman against the better opposition, then I'm not sure why we saw Emelin on the top pair last season over Beaulieu. 

 

There are two things we have that other teams don't. We have Shea Weber, who

can make unorthodox players look

competent on the top pair and we also have the best goaltender in the world. What we need is more offense.

 

Statistically, Streit averaged more points than Petry only last year and if he's given a chance, he can get 30-40 points despite his age. Why that's frowned upon beats me. It certainly becomes a worse top

pairing than we had with Markov but it's better than Beaulieu and Emelin on the top pair. Due to the reality that Emelin overtook Beaulieu on the top pair last season, I agree we will likely see Alzner there at this point. 

 

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