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Fire Bergevin


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On a team that doesn't have enough people that put the puck in the net, I value doing so pretty high. I value playmaking ability. I believe in posession stats. I do think that scoring goals is more important than touching the puck before someone scores though. It's not always a picture perfect play followed by a saucer pass to an open man. Assists are quite often just touching the puck before someone else before a guy scored. Obviously Subban has a ton beautiful plays and sets up some great goals but weber has a unique skill. Everybody knows he's gonna one time it. And they still can't stop him. having weber on the off hand high and chucky on the off hand low should make for some exciting goals

Whats more important, exciting goals, or total goals.

Cause honestly i don't care how it gets to the back of the net, i care how many times it gets to the back of the net. Thats what is going to help a team win.

If subban scores the goal, or get the primary assist, it doesn't matter. Bottom line is he was a major contributor to getting it to the back of the net.

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Being picked by team canada is not confirmation that one player is or isnt better than another.

Better fit at that position and roster slotting, more reliable, better leadership, better reputation among the actual players, lower maintenance, better defender call it whatever you want.

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That's right, keep ignoring the rational argument and keep just asserting the unparalleled objectivity and supremacy of Team Canada management despite its long track record of addle-brained choices.

As for goals: if scoring more goals was the objective, there were surely other ways of achieving it than trading PK Subban, who is a massive driver of offence. :rolleyes: E.g., how about adding a damned legitimate top-6 FW? If that was the logic behind The Trade, then it was the "logic" of desperation.

And yeah, I've never understood why so many fans like to pretend that playmaking and puck-possession "don't count" and only goals do when it comes to creating offence.

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That's right, keep ignoring the rational argument and keep just asserting the unparalleled objectivity and supremacy of Team Canada management despite its long track record of addle-brained choices.

As for goals: if scoring more goals was the objective, there were surely other ways of achieving it than trading PK Subban, who is a massive driver of offence. :rolleyes: E.g., how about adding a damned legitimate top-6 FW? If that was the logic behind The Trade, then it was the "logic" of desperation.

And yeah, I've never understood why so many fans like to pretend that playmaking and puck-possession "don't count" and only goals do when it comes to creating offence.

However, wins and losses count bit more than one fancy stat or other and team with more goals celebrates with their fans.

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However, wins and losses count bit more than one fancy stat or other and team with more goals celebrates with their fans.

That's certainly true! But a guy who scores 30 goals with zero assists is not contributing more to the offence than a guy who scores 15 goals and 80 points. Surprisingly often, fans seem to deny this.

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Better fit at that position and roster slotting, more reliable, better leadership, better reputation among the actual players, lower maintenance, better defender call it whatever you want.

All opinions... that may or may not lead to the team being better.

And when other legitimate hockey guys... like David Poile, the guy who has the best track record in the NHL for acquiring defencemen disagrees, the value of those opinions are certainly up for debate.

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I don't blindly say goal scoring is more important than playmaking. Thornton had an amazing playoff last year. I actually understand the game a little better than that. I am one of the guys who does not like this trade. I want Bergevin fired so he can't screw up the team anymore. Subban's playmaking ability will be sorely missed. But goal and an assist are not equal. Somebody needs to bury the puck in the net. And this team had been missing that for a long time. Like I said. Passing the puck to Markov who then finds a cross seam to hit galchenyuk who scores, is not the same as scoring. 5 goals for the 3rd highest player in the league last season is not a good thing. Let's not try to spin that it is.

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I don't blindly say goal scoring is more important than playmaking. Thornton had an amazing playoff last year. I actually understand the game a little better than that. I am one of the guys who does not like this trade. I want Bergevin fired so he can't screw up the team anymore. Subban's playmaking ability will be sorely missed. But goal and an assist are not equal. Somebody needs to bury the puck in the net. And this team had been missing that for a long time. Like I said. Passing the puck to Markov who then finds a cross seam to hit galchenyuk who scores, is not the same as scoring. 5 goals for the 3rd highest player in the league last season is not a good thing. Let's not try to spin that it is.

You're right for sure. My reply to this (reasonable) line of thinking is that there *had* to be a way to boost goal scoring that didn't involve trading PK Subban!!! :bonk:Getting a decent FW might be start.

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You're right for sure. My reply to this (reasonable) line of thinking is that there *had* to be a way to boost goal scoring that didn't involve trading PK Subban!!! :bonk:Getting a decent FW might be start.

For sure. The trade makes zero sense. I don't get it. I'm just trying to look for positives and we may find some. These guys are polar opposites. So it's hard to compare

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All opinions... that may or may not lead to the team being better.

And when other legitimate hockey guys... like David Poile, the guy who has the best track record in the NHL for acquiring defencemen disagrees, the value of those opinions are certainly up for debate.

Don't know much about Poile's record as GM, I think he has had more time to build a Cup winner/contender than Bergevin hasn't he? And hasn't Hockey Canada run through almost every 'good' GM and Coach around over past couple decades? So you are saying some of their decisions are debatable, you are likely including a large group of people arnt you?

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Bob Clarke was in charge are of the 98 debacle. He was a lousy GM. And as the head of the Canadian team put his flyers ahead with of what was best for team Canada.

Old school guy. Gretzky was the greatest player that played the game, but his time as coach and the deals he forced while in Phoenix prove that Kevin Lowe isn't the only ex-oiler who was lousy in a management position. Gretzky was in charge when they decided to leave Crosby behind in favour of a mucker like draper. - probably influenced by Holland wanting his players in the tournament.

Last olympics Hitchcock pushed hard for bouwmeester - a guy who was a career loser on the team. Arm team that one on the back of price's goaltendng but couldn't score.

They don't pick the best players - their are personal agendas behind the selections. Yzerman who was one of the top 5 players in the league didn't make a Canadian team for over 10 years ( not counting world championships and world juniors).

It took Roy over 10'years to make a Canadian team, because sather always went with his guys.

Don't know much about Poile's record as GM, I think he has had more time to build a Cup winner/contender than Bergevin hasn't he? And hasn't Hockey Canada run through almost every 'good' GM and Coach around over past couple decades? So you are saying some of their decisions are debatable, you are likely including a large group of people arnt you?

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  • 8 months later...

The case for the prosecution is straightforward. Despite inheriting great pieces (Price, PK, Patches, etc.) he has failed to make the team a legitimate Cup contender in five years of GMing.

 

Moreover:

 

1. Following the 2015 playoff loss to Tampa, which inspired this thread in the first place, he misidentified the team's fundamental needs. That was a close, hard-fought series in which the Habs simply could not get the timely goals they needed and therefore lost. Like the old-school plodder he has revealed himself to be, he blamed Leadership and Character rather than skill. In consequence he made a raft of decisions to add Leadership which amounted to lateral moves or else tweaks to the bottom end of the roster and ignoring laughable deficiencies in the top 6. These decisions locked us into bad contracts (Weber & Shaw) while making us four years older at the key #1 defenceman position; yet the end result was EXACTLY the same as in 2015: a team losing a hard-fought series because it can't score. All he did was burn two more years of this core's limited time.

 

2. Following the 2016, he should have done what any other GM would have done and fired Therrien. A new coach would have come in from the get-go and this would have accomplished two things. First, it would have given him a new set of eyes on the group he had, instead of continuing to depend on the biases and preferences of the same guy - Therrien - who had been managing the players since 2013. This might have prevented stupidities like trading Subban. Second, it would have given him an entire season in which to adjust the team to accommodate the coach. We now have to wait for next season to trade the Galys and Beaulieus who Julien can't work with. Another year burned.

 

3. The farm team. Where is the talent pipeline other than Sergachev? Where is the player development? Does anyone still believe Galy and Beaulieu will have great futures with us? Lehkonen was developed in Europe, not within. The result of these inadequacies is that the current Habs' core represents the PEAK of what the Bergevin era is likely to give us. The future looks worse, not better.

 

I can think of no reason for retaining his services. Sure, he's made some good moves taken in isolation (Radu). But if the goal is to win a Stanley Cup - not simply make the playoffs - then his overall body of work is a failure, and one that offers no reason for optimism than he can fix it. Based on the past year's work, he can't even be trusted to properly identify the problem.

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1 hour ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

Based on the past year's work, he can't even be trusted to properly identify the problem.

 

This is the the question for me: Do we even want this guy to keep tinkering with the team? He traded a franchise player and fired a coach and the results were out in 6. He signed Radulov, great, but he also nickel and dimed him when other teams offered another year. The move worked, but it's the thinking that concerns me. The thinking being that Radulov was another short term bandaid for the offense. Which makes me wonder...does this guy understand the concept of "offense?" Because he certainly doesn't take it seriously.

 

I don't have confidence in Bergevin making the right decision. He'll probably trade Galchenyuk and Beaulieu for Sean Couturier or Ryan Kesler. 

 

Can Bergevin learn the lesson? Maybe after this series. He's out of excuses about coaching, character and leadership. The team worked their ass off, they traded for the grittiest grits that ever gritted, and they have a guy good enough to make the top-6 on Team Canada! However, at this point, it's obvious he couldn't build an adequate top-6 with a 100 year head start.

 

It's like Alec Baldwin said in Glengarry Glenn Ross "I told (Mitch and Murray) to do themselves  a favor and fire your effin ass." The clock has struck 12, and MB is officially a pumpkin. He'll be gone at the end if next year.

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Guest Stogey24

Good posts. I've been saying it for a while, as have you guys. This g.m will not lead us to the promise land. 

 

The biggest issue this team was plagued with all year was scoring, yet somehow our g.m over looked that. Now we're out of the playoffs in the first round and scored ONE GOAL in all four losses. Thanks Marc 

 

The team slowly burned into a pile of shit last season. Marc added Ben ####ing scrivens as our starting goalie and burned yet another year of contention. Thanks Marc 

 

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Carey walk after next season. Thanks Marc 

 

Fire him this summer. Get someone in here who's fresh and can bring a new light to the team. We pray year after year things will change, but we're left with mediocrity and the same God damn issues that have hindered this team for years. 

 

I got hounded for saying this before, but this team is not far off from a rebuild. 

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1 hour ago, Lovett's Magnatones said:

He signed Radulov, great, but he also nickel and dimed him when other teams offered another year. The move worked, but it's the thinking that concerns me. The thinking being that Radulov was another short term bandaid for the offense. Which makes me wonder...does this guy understand the concept of "offense?" Because he certainly doesn't take it seriously.

 

Radulov was also his third choice behind Lucic and Williams. He's lucky that Radulov loves Quebec and wanted to play here.

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8 minutes ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

Radulov was also his third choice behind Lucic and Williams. He's lucky that Radulov loves Quebec and wanted to play here.

 

Hahahahaha. That's right, I forgot. Imagine Weber and Lucic as 33 and 36 year olds? If this team isn't careful, they're going to turn into the Canucks.

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20 minutes ago, Lovett's Magnatones said:

 

Hahahahaha. That's right, I forgot. Imagine Weber and Lucic as 33 and 36 year olds? If this team isn't careful, they're going to turn into the Canucks.

 

Except that the Canucks went to Game 7 of the Finals. The best we'll have to show for Bergevin's efforts may turn out to be a single Semi Finals appearance.:wacko:

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I think most here finally feel MB should be fired.  Unfortunately I doubt Molson has the balls to do it yet.  I think we will be stuck with man for at least one more year, possibly even two.  

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41 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

I think most here finally feel MB should be fired.  Unfortunately I doubt Molson has the balls to do it yet.  I think we will be stuck with man for at least one more year, possibly even two.  

Good.:clap:

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9 minutes ago, DON said:

Good.:clap:

Yeah, I'm sure you're the type that is happy and satisfied with either missing the playoffs or getting knocked out in the first round!!   You sure you aren't a closet Leaf's fan?

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Just now, Stogey24 said:

:rolleyes:

:rolleyes:

 

You do realize this could go on forever...

 

But seriously, how can anyone give three cheers for Bergevin at this point? One semi-final appearance in five years (2014) is his peak accomplishment. And it's not like he inherited some decimated, blown-up roster either. DON appears to be happy with an endless succession of first- and second-round exits by an aging core. YAAAAAAY

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15 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Yeah, I'm sure you're the type that is happy and satisfied with either missing the playoffs or getting knocked out in the first round!!   You sure you aren't a closet Leaf's fan?

Idiotic and inane first sentence

 and yes.

8 minutes ago, Stogey24 said:

:rolleyes:

Because I have zero interest in Molson firing this GM and searching for a new one at this juncture. Not that Molson wont do it, like you say, he has little balls and if receives too much fan/political pressure, he may try and get a Julien Brisbois perhaps?

 

or goes 'off the reservation' and goes for McGuire!
 

 

Edited by DON
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5 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

:rolleyes:

 

You do realize this could go on forever...

 

But seriously, how can anyone give three cheers for Bergevin at this point? One semi-final appearance in five years (2014) is his peak accomplishment. And it's not like he inherited some decimated, blown-up roster either. DON appears to be happy with an endless succession of first- and second-round exits by an aging core. YAAAAAAY

Like I said earlier, don has the attitude of a classic 80's leafs fan!

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