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2016 World Cup thread


JoeLassister

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I think that trying to "build the right team" is not the best strategy. Why have the mentality of shutting down the other team when you could ice a full team that the opposition has to worry about shutting down? The reason checking lines exist is because of diluted talent across 30 teams in the NHL. In a tournament like this I think best player available is the way to select. Didn't anyone learn from the Rob Zamner experiment?

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I think that trying to "build the right team" is not the best strategy. Why have the mentality of shutting down the other team when you could ice a full team that the opposition has to worry about shutting down? The reason checking lines exist is because of diluted talent across 30 teams in the NHL. In a tournament like this I think best player available is the way to select. Didn't anyone learn from the Rob Zamner experiment?

I totally agree - obviously. But you'll never convince these old-school types of that. These are the same kind of minds that brought Adam Foote to Torino.

What drives me crazy is that PK Subban can play any kind of game you want, so even the 'team-building' logic totally justifies him being there.

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I totally agree - obviously. But you'll never convince these old-school types of that. These are the same kind of minds that brought Adam Foote to Torino.

What drives me crazy is that PK Subban can play any kind of game you want, so even the 'team-building' logic totally justifies him being there.

An old school hockey guy I knew who didn't like Subban after a while of me prodding him said this, to paraphrase:

"I would rather have a defenceman on my team that I can't see doing nothing to help the team than have a guy like Subban who once in a while I clearly see cough up the puck by trying to be fancy. There's nothing worse in sports than feeling embarrassed and Subban does that to me."

Basically, no matter what good Subban does that he can see or not see, he'd rather a guy who he doesn't see the bad than deal with one moment where Subban gets stripped and costs the team a goal. He'd rather lose than feel embarrassment.

I wouldn't be shocked if people on Team Canada think similarly.

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An old school hockey guy I knew who didn't like Subban after a while of me prodding him said this, to paraphrase:

"I would rather have a defenceman on my team that I can't see doing nothing to help the team than have a guy like Subban who once in a while I clearly see cough up the puck by trying to be fancy. There's nothing worse in sports than feeling embarrassed and Subban does that to me."

Basically, no matter what good Subban does that he can see or not see, he'd rather a guy who he doesn't see the bad than deal with one moment where Subban gets stripped and costs the team a goal. He'd rather lose than feel embarrassment.

I wouldn't be shocked if people on Team Canada think similarly.

Wow. That's even worse than I thought.

And it goes a long way to explaining why the NHL just loooves robots like Toews but has absolutely no idea what to do with, or how to market, a guy like Subban.

Just brutal.

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My question is this , what these assholes have done with Serge Savard? He was one of the greatest defenceman to ever live but that spinorama? Man that was dangerous. What about Bobby Orr, I don't think he could play on these teams with that logic. Whether you realize it or not he gave up the puck a lot, but he also scored a ton of goals. I don't think Cherry was worrying about being embarrassed by Bobby nor do I think he would be worried about PK SUBBAN.

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Abdelkader, Callahan, and Dubinsky on team USA and he didn't get passed over?

He's too young to be eligible for team USA.

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Abdelkader, Callahan, and Dubinsky on team USA and he didn't get passed over?

He wasn't eligible for the team.... He was only eligible for the U23 squad.

Him and Boone Jenner, two 30 goal scorers, didn't get selected.... to a team where both would have been tied with Johnny Gaudreau as the 2nd highest scorer on the team. (Saad had 31).

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From what I've read, spinorama savard has also been very critical of subban.

My question is this , what these assholes have done with Serge Savard? He was one of the greatest defenceman to ever live but that spinorama? Man that was dangerous. What about Bobby Orr, I don't think he could play on these teams with that logic. Whether you realize it or not he gave up the puck a lot, but he also scored a ton of goals. I don't think Cherry was worrying about being embarrassed by Bobby nor do I think he would be worried about PK SUBBAN.

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My question is this , what these assholes have done with Serge Savard? He was one of the greatest defenceman to ever live but that spinorama? Man that was dangerous. What about Bobby Orr, I don't think he could play on these teams with that logic. Whether you realize it or not he gave up the puck a lot, but he also scored a ton of goals. I don't think Cherry was worrying about being embarrassed by Bobby nor do I think he would be worried about PK SUBBAN.

Good point! Cherry is a dinosaur, but had the sense to know that, and he loves PK... maybe he isn't senile? ;)

I think most of the time when Subban makes a bad play like that, or a risky move, it's mostly because the friggin' offensively challenged, great goaltender oriented team, needs to have SOMEONE step up and try to score, or do something spectacular to give the team a chance to win...

I love the guy, and all he brings to the Montreal Canadiens, and if he's traded, Ima be a Leafs fan from that day onward (ok, not really but you get my point) :monkey:

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From what I've read, spin prams savard has also been very critical of subban.

All I heard from that front is that Savard told PK to "play the clock." Don't take risks until the situation calls for it.

As much as I love PK's flair, and could watch his end-to-end rushes and "high risk" plays all night, that is probably good advice. The Big 3 of the '70s would be tapped on the shoulder by Bowman whenever the Habs were trailing in the third: "OK, now you can go."

Perhaps it IS a legitimate criticism of Subban that he doesn't always pick his spot for "the big play" as wisely as he could. But other than those two embarrassing blow-outs before he got hurt, where he coughed up the puck spectacularly and fell down - which I believe cost him a spot on this team - I think this too is largely a myth held over from his first couple of seasons. Also, at that point in the season the Habs were desperate. Maybe PK, as a team leader, would have been better to project calmness and control under those circumstances; but at least he tried to spark something instead of moping. The key to Subban is he wants to be great. Not the safe mediocrity everyone wants him to be. The NHL doesn't know how to handle a player like that.

I think habs rule makes a great point. NHL coaching and culture have grown increasingly risk-averse since the '70s and '80s. 99% of coaches are ruled by fear: don't make mistakes! Don't take risks!! And above all, don't be an individual with personality. We associate this with "old school," but IN FACT hockey in the '70s and '80s was chock-full of non-robotic characters who partied hard and played with flair and risk. This risk-averse mentality really only took over in the dead puck era when Lemaire's Devils became the gold standard.

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I think habs rule makes a great point. NHL coaching and culture have grown increasingly risk-averse since the '70s and '80s. 99% of coaches are ruled by fear: don't make mistakes! Don't take risks!! And above all, don't be an individual with personality. We associate this with "old school," but IN FACT hockey in the '70s and '80s was chock-full of non-robotic characters who partied hard and played with flair and risk. This risk-averse mentality really only took over in the dead puck era when Lemaire's Devils became the gold standard.

It's sort of like when two genres of music come together and either the best of both worlds comes out, one or none. Canadian hockey used to be about doing whatever it took to win. Dig deep in the corners, fight if you have to, get to the net and score. It was reckless and chaotic. Russian hockey was all about formation and structure. It was about using all five players on the ice to create plays. As more European influence came into the game, it was at first fantastic (the firewagon hockey of the 80s had a lot of inspiration from the way Russians played, just not as well formed) and once we got into the 90s, coaching became more advanced due to the influence of Russian hockey. That advancement meant you didn't have to just bodycheck and block shots to play defence. Now you could structure the players movements to cut down on skating lanes and puck movement. That's where we get the Lemaire trap from. It's almost forgotten in history that the trap was designed to be an offensive strategy, not a defensive (some credit the 20s Maple Leafs or the 70s Canadiens but Anatoli Tarasov is the true father of the modern trap). The way to counter an offensive trap is with a defensive trap, and thus the defensive trap became easier to utilize.

The Olympics tends to be where we see the best of both worlds collide. You see the game the way it was meant to be played, and that's a combination of chaotic fight to win hockey from Canada and strategic think to play hockey from Russia combined among several all-star teams. Of course, we probably won't see that with this stupid tournament. This is the World Baseball Classic and nothing more.

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If you can win a Cup with Chris Nilan getting 141 penalty minutes in 18 playoff games, you can do anything.

:rofl:

Much as I love Knuckles, did he even watch the 2014 series against Boston? Subban single-handedly destroyed the Bruins' will to live. Sorry, but you WIN with guys like that.

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Yes, it was an odd over the top comment that just kinda stuck, but Nilan does rant often and may be just a 'bit' old-school. He was taking or going on about how all the players...but one, were on same game plan or "paddling in the same direction" I think is how he put it.

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Yes, it was an odd over the top comment that just kinda stuck, but Nilan does rant often and may be just a 'bit' old-school. He was taking or going on about how all the players...but one, were on same game plan or "paddling in the same direction" I think is how he put it.

Which is frustrating to claim when Subban was at times one of the only players creating any offence. The puck would just die on every player's stick and people kept ranting about it just being bad luck that'll eventually turn around. If Subban or Gallagher or Galchenyuk or Carr weren't on the ice, it was tough for any play to get made. I'd probably include Beaulieu as well. Andrighetto would look good but then a gust of wind would knock him over. Other than that, goals were very hard to come by.

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Guest Stogey24

"Habs wont win a cup with PK on the team." C.Nilan

Well Lafleur just said P.K will be the reason Montreal wins a cup. Who's opinion do you take more seriously?

I'm so tired of people trashing P.K. This team would be so ing bad without him. Thank God he's a strong person, because anyone else probably would have wanted out of Montreal by this point.

It's a damn shame you can't have personality in the Nhl.

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I will take PK's will to win over a whole bunch of jerks in the NHL who just don't have that "Joie de vivre". He lives life to the fullest. I hate to say it but if he was white, he would be on that team. He is one of the most exciting players in the world to watch. That fell down thing where Le forking Dummy Genius blamed him? That was the most ridiculous comment I have ever heard. He was trying to win the game. I have no idea what Le Genius was trying to do. Hey I love knuckles, but he was not here for his great offensive skills, ok he offensive but more like "you could take him anywhere 2nd time to apologize" kind of way. Did Savard ever fork up? Many times. Larry? many times. Le Pointu? Of course he did. But not not every one has the BALLS to want to take the team on his back and win. PK DOES. end of rant.

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I will take PK's will to win over a whole bunch of jerks in the NHL who just don't have that "Joie de vivre". He lives life to the fullest. I hate to say it but if he was white, he would be on that team. He is one of the most exciting players in the world to watch. That fell down thing where Le forking Dummy Genius blamed him? That was the most ridiculous comment I have ever heard. He was trying to win the game. I have no idea what Le Genius was trying to do. Hey I love knuckles, but he was not here for his great offensive skills, ok he offensive but more like "you could take him anywhere 2nd time to apologize" kind of way. Did Savard ever fork up? Many times. Larry? many times. Le Pointu? Of course he did. But not not every one has the BALLS to want to take the team on his back and win. PK DOES. end of rant.

Nice!

I've long felt that if Subban played for the Leafs he would be a national hero. Maybe that's irrational of me, but I can't shake that belief.

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I'm with Lafleur and kinda angry at Nilan now, WTF!!!?

PK be bad man!!! ya know notin if ya say odaway, seen!?!!!

He is one of the only reason I cared at one point this past season. His will, want and need to win in red, white and blue made me watch, period.

Everybody was saying this and that. Will Gally hit 25? Will Chuky get 30? What about Max and his 30? and then the (forking) tank ppl.

Naw! fo' me it was all PK come Febuary.

Canada messed but everytin irrie beca PK Hab man, seen!?!

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He's too young to be eligible for team USA.

He wasn't eligible for the team.... He was only eligible for the U23 squad.

Him and Boone Jenner, two 30 goal scorers, didn't get selected.... to a team where both would have been tied with Johnny Gaudreau as the 2nd highest scorer on the team. (Saad had 31).

Wait, so there's a young stars team in this tournament? And I just looked and saw a team Europe? Wtf? This tournament is ridiculous. Poor excuse for an Olympic replacement to give them an excuse not to go in 2018.

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Wait, so there's a young stars team in this tournament? And I just looked and saw a team Europe? Wtf? This tournament is ridiculous. Poor excuse for an Olympic replacement to give them an excuse not to go in 2018.

Yes, there's a Young Stars team in this tournament...as long as you're from Canada or USA. If you're not, then you can't play for that team but you can play for your country (for example, Patrik Laine is on Finland). Perhaps more apt names for the final teams would be 'Gimmick Team 1' and ' Gimmick Team 2.'

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