2016 World Cup thread

[Commandant]

Torts called him out:

http://www.gohabsgo.com/2016/09/11/john-tortorella-singles-out-max-pacioretty/

He was a useless bum many a night for our team last season, and if Therrien wasn't a gutless coach that plays his favorites no matter what, would have been benched or pressboxed on a few occasions. Glad to see him being called out for a change. Captain my a$$

Useless bum who led the team in points, and not by a small margin, but by 8.

Useless 30 goal scorer, who kills penalties and played most of the year against the other team's top lines.

But he doesn't go raw-raw, lets go boys on the bench, so I guess he's not captain material. And that makes him a useless bum who should be benched or pressboxed.

On a team that didn't score enough goals, and had 4 (And when gallagher was hurt 3) legit top 6 forwards it was playing favorites not to bench or press box the one guy who was the best at actually scoring.

Did you even think this through?

[IN THE HEARTS OF MEN]

No... Patch didn't look good yesterday... Hopefully torts calling him out just lit a fire...

[IN THE HEARTS OF MEN]

Useless bum who led the team in points, and not by a small margin, but by 8.

Useless 30 goal scorer, who kills penalties and played most of the year against the other team's top lines.

But he doesn't go raw-raw, lets go boys on the bench, so I guess he's not captain material. And that makes him a useless bum who should be benched or pressboxed.

On a team that didn't score enough goals, and had 4 (And when gallagher was hurt 3) legit top 6 forwards it was playing favorites not to bench or press box the one guy who was the best at actually scoring.

Did you even think this through?

You forgot to mention how he was slow out of the blocks nursing his sprained knee ligaments LY.... On top of it all!

[dlbalr]

I thought Pacioretty looked good on the top line when he was with Kane/Pavelski in the first game. They took him off that line and he hasn't looked as sharp since. USA's bottom two lines are aggressive, physical units. That's not Pacioretty's game; he's not going to shine in that type of a role. If they keep him in that role, he's not going to look too good moving forward either.

As for Weber, I've liked what I've seen for the most part although his puck handling has been iffy. Admittedly, I'm watching with a more critical eye than usual since that's the element that concerns me the most moving forward but more than a few of his passes were missing the intended targets. Part of that is undoubtedly rust and unfamiliarity with teammates and the system but it lines up with the scouting report that puck movement isn't his strong suit. I'm not making any rash judgments here (we're two games into pre-tournament play) but it will be interesting to see if that sharpens up as the tournament progresses and into the regular season. From the shooting perspective, I'm pleased to see he doesn't hesitate to wrist it on the net if the slapper won't make it through too. That type of shot variation can be useful on a power play.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I thought Pacioretty looked good on the top line when he was with Kane/Pavelski in the first game. They took him off that line and he hasn't looked as sharp since. USA's bottom two lines are aggressive, physical units. That's not Pacioretty's game; he's not going to shine in that type of a role. If they keep him in that role, he's not going to look too good moving forward either.

As for Weber, I've liked what I've seen for the most part although his puck handling has been iffy. Admittedly, I'm watching with a more critical eye than usual since that's the element that concerns me the most moving forward but more than a few of his passes were missing the intended targets. Part of that is undoubtedly rust and unfamiliarity with teammates and the system but it lines up with the scouting report that puck movement isn't his strong suit. I'm not making any rash judgments here (we're two games into pre-tournament play) but it will be interesting to see if that sharpens up as the tournament progresses and into the regular season. From the shooting perspective, I'm pleased to see he doesn't hesitate to wrist it on the net if the slapper won't make it through too. That type of shot variation can be useful on a power play.

Nice analysis, Brian. Thanks.

[Link67]

Torts called him out:

http://www.gohabsgo.com/2016/09/11/john-tortorella-singles-out-max-pacioretty/

He was a useless bum many a night for our team last season, and if Therrien wasn't a gutless coach that plays his favorites no matter what, would have been benched or pressboxed on a few occasions. Glad to see him being called out for a change. Captain my a$$

Come on man this is so far from accurate, there has never been a bum in the nhl who scored 30 or more goals 3 seasons in a row who is ENTERING his prime, not one. Let alone one who freakin backchecks. So he is streaky, So what, so are 80% of the snipers in this league. But a bum? That is crazy talk, maybe his leadership wasn't the best, he was also a rookie captain who will learn from certain situations he went through last season. He is also going to have some huge help keeping that room sharp with Weber at his side, and he will learn a lot from him.

All in all i am glad we have him, and I think its absurd that people would go on to call a leading scorer a bum just because he is struggling out of the gate in some pre tournament games.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Come on man this is so far from accurate, there has never been a bum in the nhl who scored 30 or more goals 3 seasons in a row who is ENTERING his prime, not one. Let alone one who freakin backchecks. So he is streaky, So what, so are 80% of the snipers in this league. But a bum? That is crazy talk, maybe his leadership wasn't the best, he was also a rookie captain who will learn from certain situations he went through last season. He is also going to have some huge help keeping that room sharp with Weber at his side, and he will learn a lot from him.

All in all i am glad we have him, and I think its absurd that people would go on to call a leading scorer a bum just because he is struggling out of the gate in some pre tournament games.

Anyone slagging Patches should stop for a second and think where this team's offence would be without him. The mind reels.

The "C" is the problem of course. It's akin to being overpaid: no matter how good you are, if people don't feel you're living up to the expectations created by your status, they will run you down.

[Meller93]

Come on man this is so far from accurate, there has never been a bum in the nhl who scored 30 or more goals 3 seasons in a row who is ENTERING his prime, not one. Let alone one who freakin backchecks. So he is streaky, So what, so are 80% of the snipers in this league. But a bum? That is crazy talk, maybe his leadership wasn't the best, he was also a rookie captain who will learn from certain situations he went through last season. He is also going to have some huge help keeping that room sharp with Weber at his side, and he will learn a lot from him.

All in all i am glad we have him, and I think its absurd that people would go on to call a leading scorer a bum just because he is struggling out of the gate in some pre tournament games.

I very much agree with that post just to be clear!

But I find the concept of forwards "entering" their prime at 27 a little inaccurate. It's more like mid prime.

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/when-nhl-players-peak-hockey-metrics-1.2646054

That's an interesting read about peaks and the difference between defenseman and forwards.

[Meller93]

I'll add Adam Oates has a few statements about intangibles, stats, etc that many will find interesting.

[Commandant]

Anyone slagging Patches should stop for a second and think where this team's offence would be without him. The mind reels.

The "C" is the problem of course. It's akin to being overpaid: no matter how good you are, if people don't feel you're living up to the expectations created by your status, they will run you down.

Mark me down as saying if there is a lack of leadership, its never about one player.

Leaders lead, regardless of the letter on their jersey. A letter doesn't change a non-leader into a leader, and if a guy is a natural leader but doesn't have a letter, he'll still lead.

The letter is ceremonial and good for marketing, thats about it.

[Scott462]

Mark me down as saying if there is a lack of leadership, its never about one player.

Leaders lead, regardless of the letter on their jersey. A letter doesn't change a non-leader into a leader, and if a guy is a natural leader but doesn't have a letter, he'll still lead.

The letter is ceremonial and good for marketing, thats about it.

That's exactly right man.

I think with Weber and Price behind his back helping him carry the load I'm sure he will be just fine.

People are coming down a little too hard on Patches IMO. I don't think he expected these games to become so intense so quickly and was probably trying to find his groove when things got wild. A lot of these guys are rusty as hell and like that first game a couple guys got banged up pretty good

[sbhatt]

Yeah, the guy scores a lot...but he also took far too many nights off last season. Being streaky as fine if you are working hard in those games where you aren't scoring, but Max floated around lazily for the most part in those games. He was not the same guy who reliably backchecked hard and was a great penalty killer the season prior...and it really rubbed me the wrong way when he mailed it in so often. To me, that's not leadership...a leader works hard game in and game out..>ESPECIALLY when things are going badly for the team as a whole. If it's a one time thing, nothing to worry about. But if he's the same guy this season that he was last season...we have a problem, 30 goals or not.

[sbhatt]

The "C" is the problem of course. It's akin to being overpaid: no matter how good you are, if people don't feel you're living up to the expectations created by your status, they will run you down.

Perhaps I have been spoiled seeing a captains like Gainey and Carbo who never took a night off, and by watching Toews quite a bit with the Hawks in recent seasons. To me, that C is more than a ceremonial/marketing point item.

[Commandant]

Perhaps I have been spoiled seeing a captains like Gainey and Carbo who never took a night off, and by watching Toews quite a bit with the Hawks in recent seasons. To me, that C is more than a ceremonial/marketing point item.

Carbo played the same way before he got the letter.

Gainey played the same way before he got the letter.

Toews played the same way before he got the letter.

Are they great leaders? Sure.

Would they still be great leaders without the letter? yes

When Saku had cancer, and the Habs signed Doug Gilmour, he was a huge leader on that team. He didn't have a letter on his jersey, but he was a leader.

Carey Price doesn't have a letter on his jersey, but he's a leader.

Pierre Turgeon had a letter on his jersey, didn't change the fact he never was a leader and wasn't going to be.

People put too much importance on the "c". It doesn't change the person and if you are a good leader, teammates will follow regardless if you have the C or not.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

I'm all for a player being lazy in this dumb tournament.

[xXx..CK..xXx]

Carbo played the same way before he got the letter.

Gainey played the same way before he got the letter.

Toews played the same way before he got the letter.

Are they great leaders? Sure.

Would they still be great leaders without the letter? yes

When Saku had cancer, and the Habs signed Doug Gilmour, he was a huge leader on that team. He didn't have a letter on his jersey, but he was a leader.

Carey Price doesn't have a letter on his jersey, but he's a leader.

Pierre Turgeon had a letter on his jersey, didn't change the fact he never was a leader and wasn't going to be.

People put too much importance on the "c". It doesn't change the person and if you are a good leader, teammates will follow regardless if you have the C or not.

Carbo got the letter because of the way he played before he got the letter.

Same for Gainey, Toews and many other great captains.

The captaincy is (should be) given to a player who the rest of team would want to emulate when the going gets tough, or at any time for that matter.

I can see the argument that the C is just a letter on some teams. If the C is nothing more than ceremonial, however, then Barberio or Andrighetto may as well be our captain.

I also do think that more often than not, the captaincy can have a positive psychological effect on the individual who receives it as long as they embrace the role. You can say that Toews played the same way before he got the letter but I could argue that he's elevated his team since being named captain.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I'm all for a player being lazy in this dumb tournament.

You make a good point, sir.

[xXx..CK..xXx]

You make a good point, sir.

I've been of the same mindset about the tournament but I'm going to try to catch a few games now that it's approaching. What I dislike the most about it is that it pushes back the start of the NHL season.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I've been of the same mindset about the tournament but I'm going to try to catch a few games now that it's approaching. What I dislike the most about it is that it pushes back the start of the NHL season.

If the NHL plays in the 2018 Winter Olympics, then I have no problem with this tournament as a sideshow novelty act. Still dumb because of the arbitrary Phony-Baloney teams and the absence of perfectly deserving hockey countries like Slovakia (some 'World Cup!') - not to mention the Toronto-centric nature of the circus - but still, a potentially agreeable lightweight diversion.

If - as I fear - the NHL uses this as an excuse to bail on the inconvenient Olympics, then they can all go f**k themselves.

Unfortunately, we won't know for sure how it all washes out until Bettman and his cronies announce their decision vis-a-vis the Olympics. As you can gather from this post, though, I'm extremely skeptical that they will do the right thing, and not inclined to be supportive of this tournament in consequence. The better it does, the easier it'll be for them to bail on an actual, bona-fide global championship.

[JoeLassister]

I'm all for the NHL to bail on the Olympics, inconvenient or not.

Bring back U20 at Olympics !!!

[Commandant]

I'm all for the NHL to bail on the Olympics, inconvenient or not.

Bring back U20 at Olympics !!!

To bring something back, it had to exist before.

[JoeLassister]

To bring something back, it had to exist before.

Ok then, bring back the amateurs competition of whatever age category that existed before...

[Commandant]

Ok then, bring back the amateurs competition of whatever age category that existed before...

They won't bring back amateur competition that has been gone from the Olympic criteria since the 1980s for one sport. (And thats even assuming it was amateur, which it never truly was for soviet block countries, those players were pros. They were on the "Central Red Army" team meaning their profession was "soldier" and their passtime was playing hockey for the army team. Of course they spent every day either on the ice, or doing off ice training, not actually doing military drills and exercises, but yes the Russian government was paying them for their military service, not their hockey skill. It was a joke).

Each league, NHL, AHL, SHL, KHL, etc... will be given the option of allowing their players to participate or not.

[zumpano21]

Have to say I'm impressed with the high level of play so far. I wasn't convinced the players would grind it out as much as they have.

As for the Olympics, it's got a nice shiny lustre on the surface but the IOC's stench only comes second to most religious institutions and I'm glad they'll no longer get their paws on the NHL's money - for zero risk. Just look at the 05-06 Senators for a great example. If Hasek doesn't get hurt in that tourney, they almost surely would have won the Cup.

The team formulation is a little strange but as long as the teams are competitive, I suppose it'll work.

[xXx..CK..xXx]

They won't bring back amateur competition that has been gone from the Olympic criteria since the 1980s for one sport. (And thats even assuming it was amateur, which it never truly was for soviet block countries, those players were pros. They were on the "Central Red Army" team meaning their profession was "soldier" and their passtime was playing hockey for the army team. Of course they spent every day either on the ice, or doing off ice training, not actually doing military drills and exercises, but yes the Russian government was paying them for their military service, not their hockey skill. It was a joke).

Each league, NHL, AHL, SHL, KHL, etc... will be given the option of allowing their players to participate or not.

I guess you're talking about winter Olympic criteria but in Olympic soccer, teams are only allowed 3 players above the age of 23. Generally, I'd say people don't care about Olympic soccer as a result. Soccer is the most popular sport in the world, but I wouldn't say it's necessarily the most popular Olympic sport. Basketball was the last event played this year.

I agree it will be different for hockey because I remember Ovechkin saying that he would have returned to the KHL if the NHL didn't allow players to play in the Sochi Olympics. It does still happen in some Olympic sports though.