DON Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Habs-Talk/Subbans-Pain-by-Andrew-Saadalla/219/78151 Bit #1001 on trade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Habs-Talk/Subbans-Pain-by-Andrew-Saadalla/219/78151 Bit #1001 on trade. I'd say that the confidence in the organization scores shown are a bit high. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xXx..CK..xXx Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 70 pts is not unrealistic at all for Subban. His PPG total from last season - not a great season by his standards - was 61 points. I repeat: 61 points in an off-season. Weber has been Mr. Reliable in putting up 50 points per season under two different coaches and with two different D partners. Despite being stuck with a non-elite partner for the first time in a decade, we rationally have to pencil him in for 50 points again. Interestingly, his PP goals per season are not nearly as consistent. He had 5 in 2014-15, then jumped up to 14 last year. Given that our coach cannot coach a PP to save his arse, expect a drop-off, with him and PK probably getting similar PP goal totals, since he is due for a significant bump after that bizarre first half last season. As for hitting, the coaches should have worked with him to improve that aspect of his game, because he sure could lay guys out. It looks instead like they told him to leave it to Emelin (who also puts himself out of position to lay on the hits). Certainly this would be consistent with the constipated, frightened coaching style that Dumb represents. DON, I see you are falling into the trap of slagging Subban - as though a superstar is a 'problem' - in order to compensate for your perception that people are running down Weber. Fact is, Weber is a very good player. Subban is just better than him in all sorts of aspects of the game, that's all. What I will agree with is that Weber is of a unique mould when you look at the top 15 defensemen in scoring from last season. I had a long thought written out the other day but decided not to share it but you have the Karlsson, Letang, Doughty, Ekman Larsson, Josi, Klingberg, Giordano, Barrie, Hedman and Subbans of the league, you have the Suter, Seabrook, Yandles who are somewhere in between, then you have Byfuglien and Burns' who can also play RW, and then you have Weber in a 'league' of his own. Wouldn't be the smartest thing in the world to defend a trade based on something we do in the future but I think we do agree that much hinges on how prepared Beaulieu is to take that next step. I sincerely feel like there were phases during Subbans (yes) mediocre season that Bealieu looked better than him. We just need to see that more on a consistent basis. I also feel like it will be much easier to acquire another Subban like player in the future than it would have ever been to acquire a Chara or Weber or Byfuglien or Burns. I always like to point out that I didn't like the trade when I heard about it but it is true that the Webers are a rare breed. And before we start claiming that it is because of the direction the league is heading with speed and puck possession, I'd like to see Weber actually have a bad season first. Not mention it directly after a season where he was tied with other elite defensemen in points all while bringing other elements to the table. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 I'd say that the confidence in the organization scores shown are a bit high. Well, I for one was neutral on Bergevin leading up to this summer, saying that it would be the moves he makes this year that define him. They've defined him, all right. He's a hidebound fool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habsfan1989 Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 You want to break down this trade... With PK we finished 9th last in the league. With Weber Nashville made the playoffs and had a good run. PK is top 5 when it comes to offensive defenseman But when it comes to defensive defenseman I wouldn't even put him in the top ten. Weber is top 5 when it comes to defensive defenseman. When it comes to offensive defenseman I would put him in the top 10. When it comes to trying to clear the front of the net in the last min of a game to get the win I would much rather have Weber. I would say we got the better of the trade for what we need now. What I don't get is if your going to trade a top trading chip like PK is why not get what this team hasn't had in the last 20 years which is a top playmaking center. That's what I don't understand. But when you take that out and look at the trade itself I think Weber is the better player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 I had my doubts about Bergevin from t way he handled the original Subban negotiations and not making an assistant coaching offer to Robinson. I lost all confidence in him last winter when he sat on his hands when Price went down. I get that how far we go depends on Price, but what kind of message do you send your team when basically you don't provide them with an NHL level goalie. Trading for Ben friggin screens was a joke. For a 2nd rounder we could have brought in someone like Reimer who at least would have given the team a chance. I thought he was dumb when he gave both le idiot and lefebve a pass for missing the playoffs. Le idiot all year had an excuse for losing - what happened to the no excuse mantra when he talked about when he was hired? The fact that he also didn't call out of single player last year other than Subban was a joke. The subban trade just proved to me that Bergevin is a friggin blithering idiot who surrounded himself with his childhood buddies and held no one accountable on his Management team and tried to deflect the failure of last year on Subban, by his ominous "there a reasons for the trade I can't get into" With all of the talk about subban promoting his own brand, Can you tell me any other GM in the league who does commercials??? No ego with Bergevin is there? Well, I for one was neutral on Bergevin leading up to this summer, saying that it would be the moves he makes this year that define him. They've defined him, all right. He's a hidebound fool. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 Yeah, let's forget the fact that nashville had a decent coach and we had le idiot. Let's also discount the fact that nashville had elite NHL goaltending while we had a rookie who at best is a viable backup, but most likely a career AHLer and Ben friggin scrivens. Let's also ignore the facts and stats that show Subban to be better defensively than Weber and that Weber was a no show for game 7 of the playoffs, or that despite being in the league for a shorter duration, subban has had more playoff success than Weber. Oh, let's also ignore that Subban has scored clmore critical winning goals in the playoffs than weber. Lastly let's ignore that weber's defensive partner is a Norris candidate who is better than Weber. But aside from that great analysis!! You want to break down this trade... With PK we finished 9th last in the league. With Weber Nashville made the playoffs and had a good run. PK is top 5 when it comes to offensive defenseman But when it comes to defensive defenseman I wouldn't even put him in the top ten. Weber is top 5 when it comes to defensive defenseman. When it comes to offensive defenseman I would put him in the top 10. When it comes to trying to clear the front of the net in the last min of a game to get the win I would much rather have Weber. I would say we got the better of the trade for what we need now. What I don't get is if your going to trade a top trading chip like PK is why not get what this team hasn't had in the last 20 years which is a top playmaking center. That's what I don't understand. But when you take that out and look at the trade itself I think Weber is the better player. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bar Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 Yeah, let's forget the fact that nashville had a decent coach and we had le idiot. Let's also discount the fact that nashville had elite NHL goaltending while we had a rookie who at best is a viable backup, but most likely a career AHLer and Ben friggin scrivens. Let's also ignore the facts and stats that show Subban to be better defensively than Weber and that Weber was a no show for game 7 of the playoffs, or that despite being in the league for a shorter duration, subban has had more playoff success than Weber. Oh, let's also ignore that Subban has scored clmore critical winning goals in the playoffs than weber. Lastly let's ignore that weber's defensive partner is a Norris candidate who is better than Weber. But aside from that great analysis!! I was just about to write all this. I can take analysis of the Weber/Subban trade and their performance, but what HF1989 said is what I've seen so commonly as a response when people show the metrics that prove Subban is actually good defensively. They can't equate that players with the punk more make more mistakes. Thanks for always saving me the trouble of typing so much Hab29, between you and CC, I rarely have to type. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 Well, I for one was neutral on Bergevin leading up to this summer, saying that it would be the moves he makes this year that define him. They've defined him, all right. He's a hidebound fool. He did two things I wanted him to do (add a top six winger in Radulov, trade Eller), one thing I didn't want him to do (acquire Andrew Shaw, especially for two second round picks) and one thing that made me want to cheer against the Habs until he's unceremoniously fired (trade Subban.) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 He did two things I wanted him to do (add a top six winger in Radulov, trade Eller), one thing I didn't want him to do (acquire Andrew Shaw, especially for two second round picks) and one thing that made me want to cheer against the Habs until he's unceremoniously fired (trade Subban.) Unfortunately, the quality lower-level moves he's made (Shaw, Radulov) are completely overshadowed by the cataclysmic stupidity of the one major move he did make. It's a bit like Tony Blair or Richard Nixon...no matter what else you did as leader, it's the Big Mistake that marks you for life. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted July 14, 2016 Author Share Posted July 14, 2016 Yeah, let's forget the fact that nashville had a decent coach and we had le idiot. Let's also discount the fact that nashville had elite NHL goaltending while we had a rookie who at best is a viable backup, but most likely a career AHLer and Ben friggin scrivens. Team save percentage for Nashville last year: .905. Team save percentage for Montreal: .903. There wasn't that much of a difference goaltending wise between the teams in 2015-16; Nashville's certainly wasn't elite, even compared to the Habs. http://www.sportingcharts.com/nhl/stats/team-save-percentage/2015/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLassister Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 Team save percentage for Nashville last year: .905. Team save percentage for Montreal: .903. There wasn't that much of a difference goaltending wise between the teams in 2015-16; Nashville's certainly wasn't elite, even compared to the Habs. http://www.sportingcharts.com/nhl/stats/team-save-percentage/2015/ What he meant by elite goaltending is probably that Rinne played 66 games and Carter Hutton 17 and not the other way around... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaos Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 Yeah, let's forget the fact that nashville had a decent coach and we had le idiot. Let's also discount the fact that nashville had elite NHL goaltending while we had a rookie who at best is a viable backup, but most likely a career AHLer and Ben friggin Other then his excellent 2010 season Rinne has been average or worse in most advanced stats. He is not an elite goaltender. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted July 14, 2016 Author Share Posted July 14, 2016 What he meant by elite goaltending is probably that Rinne played 66 games and Carter Hutton 17 and not the other way around... Okay. The fact remains, their team SV% was a whopping two points higher...with Rinne playing 66 games which is even worse when you think about it. That's not very good at all, certainly not elite (or even remotely close to elite). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLassister Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 Okay. The fact remains, their team SV% was a whopping two points higher...with Rinne playing 66 games which is even worse when you think about it. That's not very good at all, certainly not elite (or even remotely close to elite).Totally agree. In fact, one could wonder if the save % could have been better if Hutton would have played as much as Condon did for us... But that's a whole other story... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 Okay. The fact remains, their team SV% was a whopping two points higher...with Rinne playing 66 games which is even worse when you think about it. That's not very good at all, certainly not elite (or even remotely close to elite). Ya but... Subban helped Condon et al save% and Weber hurt Rinne's and that is why they are even close, or how it will likely be spun by the Subban fanclub. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 The whole premise that Nashville made the playoffs and the Habs didn't, and that this means that Weber is better than Subban, is preposterous. Price missed the playoffs in 2012, but it doesn't follow that every goalie who did make the playoffs was better than him. You might as well say that Mike Ribeiro is a better C than Anze Kopitar. If we're going to make such wild inferences from team success to individual player merit, it'd probably make more sense to say that Nashville's success proves that Roman Josi is better than Andrei Markov - a claim even more demonstrably true than that Subban is better than Weber (which he is). Subban has historically outproduced Weber in the playoffs too, but I guess that doesn't count either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 Imagine if Weber comes in this year and wins the Norris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted July 14, 2016 Author Share Posted July 14, 2016 Imagine if Weber comes in this year and wins the Norris That would be nice. Unfortunately I suspect there's a chunk of the fan base that is actively rooting for him to fall flat on his face just to make Bergevin look worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 That would be nice. Unfortunately I suspect there's a chunk of the fan base that is actively rooting for him to fall flat on his face just to make Bergevin look worse. Ha! Me too, I'll admit. Realistically, though, Weber is probably not going to go belly-up right away...the decline will be slower than that. So, we should get a couple of near-prime years out of him. Since this is the first time in a decade that Weber is not paired with a D-man at least as good as he is, I still think much will depend on Beaulieu. If Michel Therrien pairs Middle-Aged Weber with Old Man Markov - which, being a drooling idiot, he probably will - a Norris Trophy nomination would be borderline miraculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brobin Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 Ha! Me too, I'll admit. Realistically, though, Weber is probably not going to go belly-up right away...the decline will be slower than that. So, we should get a couple of near-prime years out of him. Since this is the first time in a decade that Weber is not paired with a D-man at least as good as he is, I still think much will depend on Beaulieu. If Michel Therrien pairs Middle-Aged Weber with Old Man Markov - which, being a drooling idiot, he probably will - a Norris Trophy nomination would be borderline miraculous. More likely, that pairing will give Price another shot at the Vezina throphy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Link67 Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 Imagine if Weber comes in this year and wins the Norris he already had more votes for it this year than Subban, close enough? That would be nice. Unfortunately I suspect there's a chunk of the fan base that is actively rooting for him to fall flat on his face just to make Bergevin look worse. Personally I could care less how MB looks, i just firmly believe Weber is nowhere near as bad as the Montreal fans think, and a lot closer to what League execs think of him. And in the end we will have ourselves a very good player on and off the ice for the next 3 to 4 years, and we will see how far this team can go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habs rule Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 So MB aka (dumber) fired the analytics guy cause he made a real case for keeping PK and not bringing Weber in. Seems a little extreme no? I guess if you aren't a buddy of his and don't agree with every thing he says you get fired. Sounds like he is fond of people kissing his A$$. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted July 15, 2016 Author Share Posted July 15, 2016 So MB aka (dumber) fired the analytics guy cause he made a real case for keeping PK and not bringing Weber in. Seems a little extreme no? I guess if you aren't a buddy of his and don't agree with every thing he says you get fired. Sounds like he is fond of people kissing his A$$. Do you really think his contract wasn't renewed solely because they disagreed on a trade? Seems a little too extreme to be realistic. By that logic, every scout should have been fired plenty of times by now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGC21 Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 Other then his excellent 2010 season Rinne has been average or worse in most advanced stats. He is not an elite goaltender. Rinne is garbage. IMO, goaltending is what's holding NSH back no matter who plays defence for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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