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Subban traded to Nashville


dlbalr

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"I don't believe in analytics and all that stuff."

I mean, that's usually the best way for someone to see the deal in favour of Shea Weber.

Of course, if the analytics were the other way around, you know these players would suddenly be experts.

Just like if Subban was a regular on team Canada and Weber was not, it would suddenly mean something. (I haven't been arguing the team Canada thing)

Both fair points but there's more to it than that.

If you trade Brad Marchand for Daniel Sedin (both 61 points last season) you can't only look at analytics to justify whether or not it's a good trade. I don't doubt that Marchand is a good teammate but for better or for worse, there's more to the package between the ears with Marchand (mostly on the ice).

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The comparison I like to make is what if Montreal traded Galchenyuk for Matt Duchene. How would you react to that? How long would it take for you to start saying Chuck wasn't ready to be a centre, Duchene will be cheaper in the long run, etc.

The comparison I like to compare this to is if we traded Pacioretty for like a Vorachek. We trade a cheaper, better goal scorer who is a captain, for a younger, better play maker that puts up more points. Two different types of players with different skill sets and pros and cons

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The comparison I like to compare this to is if we traded Pacioretty for like a Vorachek. We trade a cheaper, better goal scorer who is a captain, for a younger, better play maker that puts up more points. Two different types of players with different skill sets and pros and cons

But Pacioretty is one year older than Voracek so who is who in this scenario?

At least Galchenyuk and Duchene is clear. Duchene is three years older than Galchenyuk.

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Love Beaulieu, and not being a stat fan is fine but "I don't believe in stats" is a pretty dumb statement in my opinion hahah.

The thing with stats is they're true whether you believe them or not. Their significance could be debated I guess but facts are facts

The players have a wholly different perspective. They know which players carry the load, which players drag ass and drag the team down, and they understand the chemistry much more than we can at home. So while it is dumb to hear a fan say analytics are worthless, if you told N8 that a certain pairing didn't work because of RelFenwick or QualComp they would think you were out to lunch.

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But Pacioretty is one year older than Voracek so who is who in this scenario?

At least Galchenyuk and Duchene is clear. Duchene is three years older than Galchenyuk.

Pacioretty is Weber and Vorachek is Subban. Not a perfect comparable but close enough.

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Jeff Veillette@JeffVeillette Jul 18

If stats people need to play the game to criticize players, do players need statistics or computer science degrees to criticize numbers?

The difference between those are that the players are the ones creating the data and the statisticians are the ones analyzing it. Players could care less what corsi is when they are getting rocked at the blue line. Just like statisticians could care less what leadership is.

Analytics is just a way to quantify what has already happened and use that information to help predict an outcome. The problem with it is that it's math and probability. But that doesn't necessarily equate to a result in the future, especially with infinite variables. A team can get 50 shots a game but if they are all floaters from the blue line, the probability of a goal isn't equal with 50 one timers in the slot. Everything has a context and numbers are only numbers. This is coming from a guy who analyzes numbers for a living.

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Without getting emotional and who is better or worse. It's obvious Montreal lost this trade.

Now what is done is done.

Question how is coaching staff going to address:

1. Transition game or lack of one?

2. A slower and older defense

More time will be on the Habs end of ice..

Price stats will regressive can't do it all.. The offence will decrease..as the puck won't move up to them as quick.

So what is MT and staff and MB going to change strategy to compensate this visible regression in their game.?

Right now this isn't a playoff team again...

Unless a change of strategy is implemented.. I can't see this team making playoffs..even with Price healthy

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Without getting emotional and who is better or worse. It's obvious Montreal lost this trade.

Now what is done is done.

Question how is coaching staff going to address:

1. Transition game or lack of one?

2. A slower and older defense

More time will be on the Habs end of ice..

Price stats will regressive can't do it all.. The offence will decrease..as the puck won't move up to them as quick.

So what is MT and staff and MB going to change strategy to compensate this visible regression in their game.?

Right now this isn't a playoff team again...

Unless a change of strategy is implemented.. I can't see this team making playoffs..even with Price healthy

They had 110 points with Price the last year he was healthy.

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Without getting emotional and who is better or worse. It's obvious Montreal lost this trade.

Now what is done is done.

Question how is coaching staff going to address:

1. Transition game or lack of one?

2. A slower and older defense

More time will be on the Habs end of ice..

Price stats will regressive can't do it all.. The offence will decrease..as the puck won't move up to them as quick.

So what is MT and staff and MB going to change strategy to compensate this visible regression in their game.?

Right now this isn't a playoff team again...

Unless a change of strategy is implemented.. I can't see this team making playoffs..even with Price healthy

I agree that one for one, Montreal lost this trade, but I don't agree that this is a worse team than two years ago or last year.

They lost PK's ability on transition, but they gained Weber's Shot and net front presence and Radulov's offensive prowess. Nobody is talking about Radulov in all this. Weber even mentioned that in the presser. If Weber was the final check in the box to bring Radulov over, you could argue that it was PK for Weber and Radulov. One for one, it's a no brainer. Montreal lost the trade. PK for Radulov and Weber is a pretry damn good trade though. I'm not drinking the management Kool aid here. I do think this team is better now than it was at last year. Especially if Galchenyuk can be an effective 1st line Centre.

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Nobody is talking about Radulov in all this.

Lehkonen was talking up Radulov (again I am stealing link from HabsWorld home page, sorry just is a interesting Q/A with the Finn)

http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/2016/8/8/12403748/artturi-lehkonen-interview-training-frolunda-sweden-montreal-canadiens-roster-habs

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Without getting emotional and who is better or worse. It's obvious Montreal lost this trade.

Now what is done is done.

Question how is coaching staff going to address:

1. Transition game or lack of one?

2. A slower and older defense

More time will be on the Habs end of ice..

Price stats will regressive can't do it all.. The offence will decrease..as the puck won't move up to them as quick.

So what is MT and staff and MB going to change strategy to compensate this visible regression in their game.?

Right now this isn't a playoff team again...

Unless a change of strategy is implemented.. I can't see this team making playoffs..even with Price healthy

Team is better due to Radulov and a healthy Price. Weber will be fine in game 10, 20, 50, 60, but after that, him and Markov on the top pairing (you know it'll happen) are going to be slower and slower to stop teams with gas left in the tank. Come playoffs, we'll see Weber look like how he did against San Jose but worse. If he couldn't stop Doonskoi he won't stop the top nine of Pittsburgh. Therrien will eventually get a contract extension for putting Beaulieu with Weber after Markov retires.

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Therrien will eventually get a contract extension for putting Beaulieu with Weber after Markov retires.

Nice to hear about extension and glad Markov retires a Hab. :thumbs_up:

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I am saying that unless MT and coaching staff change their strategy in the transition game and how quickly to move out of their own end, this team won't make the playoffs.

They relied soo heavily on the 25 minutes PK gave them..Sure he would make mistakes..but given the frequency of times he moved the puck and transitioned from D to FWD..this helped greatly in their possession game. something WEBER seriously lacks..and he was left severely exposed during the SJ series.. And perhaps is the early signs of things to come as the game is changing and as it bares the results with Penguins winning the Cup.

Well lets see how he does during WC with an all star cast surrounding him.

Last 3 years Habs assist Leaders I believe ( I haven't totalled the numbers..but I am sure:

Subban has been number 1

Markov 2

Plekanec 3

The whole premise has been the quick transition and counter and neutral zone play that MT utilizes.

Now his most valuable peace of the puzzle will be missing

That's 25 to 27 minutes a game that Weber slides into..where this is not his asset and skillset.

Weber is a shut down.front of net clearance guy..

Now the team has to rely on Beaulieu and Barberio..? Unproven and inconsistent

I am not confident that MT can change his strategy.. If he indeed has one ;)

With PK and additions of Radulov ..this team I would be more confident in..

But I can't see it with the loss of PK and much lesser extent of ELLER..which in my opinion was underrated and taken for granted.. And excellent 3rd line C ..who did well in transition and neutral zone play..

Shaw got overpaid and team paid too much in giving up 2 2nd picks. For a contender he may be the missing piece to..but not on this team..

Petry healthy helps a little

But overall still think this team regressed. I SURE HOPE I AM WRONG!

Perhaps MT will surprise us with a whole new approach based on his new additions but I am not holding my breath..

Losing 25 minutes of a higher paced D for a slower plundering D..with a boom of a shot.. On THIS TEAM .imho..doesnt work with this coaching staff that has a hard time adjusting their game plan..

Maybe Muller will surprise us..I hope so..normally I am very optimistic.. But so far not in this situation.

Too bad MB didn't realize..the " Best trades are does you DONT MAKE"

Best..here is hoping this team surprises us all!

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HabsWEST, you raise reasonable issues, and I agree that the team is likely to struggle against super-fast opposition. But I think the return of Price - and his puck-handling skills - will cover a multitude of sins; and let's remember that last year's team, with Price, was utterly dominating the entire league. The replacement of Subban with Weber was indeed an act of unmitigated managerial stupidity - indeed, a complete betrayal of us as fans, since it was not a hockey trade but rather engineered to please the egos of management - but the likelihood is that the drop-off from Subban will not be steep enough to cripple the team in the short run. Remember, the Habs will not only be adding the best player on the planet (Price), but will also be adding a healthy Petry and Gallagher, as well as (probably) enjoying further progression from two key young players in Beaulieu and Galchenyuk. They've also replaced that clown Eller with a better overall player in Shaw.

So my take on it is that this team will be top-10 for sure. The Habs had better win the Cup over the next couple of years, because the longer this Old Boy bum-buddy management group is in charge, the more corroded our core is likely to become by asinine decision-making.

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HabsWEST, you raise reasonable issues, and I agree that the team is likely to struggle against super-fast opposition. But I think the return of Price - and his puck-handling skills - will cover a multitude of sins; and let's remember that last year's team, with Price, was utterly dominating the entire league. The replacement of Subban with Weber was indeed an act of unmitigated managerial stupidity - indeed, a complete betrayal of us as fans, since it was not a hockey trade but rather engineered to please the egos of management - but the likelihood is that the drop-off from Subban will not be steep enough to cripple the team in the short run. Remember, the Habs will not only be adding the best player on the planet (Price), but will also be adding a healthy Petry and Gallagher, as well as (probably) enjoying further progression from two key young players in Beaulieu and Galchenyuk. They've also replaced that clown Eller with a better overall player in Shaw.

So my take on it is that this team will be top-10 for sure. The Habs had better win the Cup over the next couple of years, because the longer this Old Boy bum-buddy management group is in charge, the more corroded our core is likely to become by asinine decision-making.

Hhahahaaha.. God I love the way you write! Ha!

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I am saying that unless MT and coaching staff change their strategy in the transition game and how quickly to move out of their own end, this team won't make the playoffs.

They relied soo heavily on the 25 minutes PK gave them..Sure he would make mistakes..but given the frequency of times he moved the puck and transitioned from D to FWD..this helped greatly in their possession game. something WEBER seriously lacks..and he was left severely exposed during the SJ series.. And perhaps is the early signs of things to come as the game is changing and as it bares the results with Penguins winning the Cup.

Well lets see how he does during WC with an all star cast surrounding him.

Last 3 years Habs assist Leaders I believe ( I haven't totalled the numbers..but I am sure:

Subban has been number 1

Markov 2

Plekanec 3

The whole premise has been the quick transition and counter and neutral zone play that MT utilizes.

Now his most valuable peace of the puzzle will be missing

That's 25 to 27 minutes a game that Weber slides into..where this is not his asset and skillset.

Weber is a shut down.front of net clearance guy..

Now the team has to rely on Beaulieu and Barberio..? Unproven and inconsistent

I am not confident that MT can change his strategy.. If he indeed has one ;)

With PK and additions of Radulov ..this team I would be more confident in..

But I can't see it with the loss of PK and much lesser extent of ELLER..which in my opinion was underrated and taken for granted.. And excellent 3rd line C ..who did well in transition and neutral zone play..

Shaw got overpaid and team paid too much in giving up 2 2nd picks. For a contender he may be the missing piece to..but not on this team..

Petry healthy helps a little

But overall still think this team regressed. I SURE HOPE I AM WRONG!

Perhaps MT will surprise us with a whole new approach based on his new additions but I am not holding my breath..

Losing 25 minutes of a higher paced D for a slower plundering D..with a boom of a shot.. On THIS TEAM .imho..doesnt work with this coaching staff that has a hard time adjusting their game plan..

Maybe Muller will surprise us..I hope so..normally I am very optimistic.. But so far not in this situation.

Too bad MB didn't realize..the " Best trades are does you DONT MAKE"

Best..here is hoping this team surprises us all!

Thanks for the great posts guys. I feel more smarter already.

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I agree that one for one, Montreal lost this trade, but I don't agree that this is a worse team than two years ago or last year.

They lost PK's ability on transition, but they gained Weber's Shot and net front presence and Radulov's offensive prowess. Nobody is talking about Radulov in all this. Weber even mentioned that in the presser. If Weber was the final check in the box to bring Radulov over, you could argue that it was PK for Weber and Radulov. One for one, it's a no brainer. Montreal lost the trade. PK for Radulov and Weber is a pretry damn good trade though. I'm not drinking the management Kool aid here. I do think this team is better now than it was at last year. Especially if Galchenyuk can be an effective 1st line Centre.

I LOVE Kool-Aid!! :hyper::nuts:

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Team is better due to Radulov and a healthy Price. Weber will be fine in game 10, 20, 50, 60, but after that, him and Markov on the top pairing (you know it'll happen) are going to be slower and slower to stop teams with gas left in the tank. Come playoffs, we'll see Weber look like how he did against San Jose but worse. If he couldn't stop Doonskoi he won't stop the top nine of Pittsburgh. Therrien will eventually get a contract extension for putting Beaulieu with Weber after Markov retires.

this is crazy talk that you are comparing markov and weber and their almost 10 years age difference! weber is gonna slow down after 60 games?? like seriously c'mon.... he averages over 25 minutes over the last 8 seasons.... He still hasnt even turned 31 yet!

also, did you watch the SJ nashville series? Because i watched that whole series and this talk that he had a bad series is laughable as well!

-san jose coming off a full weeks rest vs like 1 day turnover for weber and a jet lagged nashville team who just played a 7 game series vs another california team!

-they go down 2-0 in the series and shea was hardly the reason why. sure he was minus 1 in both games but both those goals were empty net markers

-GWG in game 3 played great

-50 minutes TOI in a 3OT win to tie a series (all hard minutes) vs pavelski and thorton (take note that weber didnt match up against the couture line) ekholm and ellis did

- his worst game of series maybe was game 5. but who wouldn't be tired after 50 minutes of ice time and then flying into SJ (oh ya sorry, PK would of been great under those circumstances) not that the much younger nashville defenders faired any better

-game 6 arguably his best game of series.

-game 7 will be most remembered for him laying down to block pavelski instead of roughing him up infront of net on the PP and bobbling the puck to allow couture in alone...

nashville lost that series i believe because their PK sucked overall and they consistently gave SJ momentum with PP goals...

ekholm and ellis did a bad job in the defensive zone all series long

maybe jetlag?? a wekks rest to start a series vs 1 after flying in and out of california for 7 games against anahiem and then again for a 7 game series against SJ in one of the more hostile arenas in the states can be gruelling... not 2 mention 2OT games and 1 going to tripleOT

jones better the rinne!!!!

but lets support the weber was awful and has lost a step because he is long in the tooth after 30 long years of life!

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HabsWEST, you raise reasonable issues, and I agree that the team is likely to struggle against super-fast opposition. But I think the return of Price - and his puck-handling skills - will cover a multitude of sins; and let's remember that last year's team, with Price, was utterly dominating the entire league. The replacement of Subban with Weber was indeed an act of unmitigated managerial stupidity - indeed, a complete betrayal of us as fans, since it was not a hockey trade but rather engineered to please the egos of management - but the likelihood is that the drop-off from Subban will not be steep enough to cripple the team in the short run. Remember, the Habs will not only be adding the best player on the planet (Price), but will also be adding a healthy Petry and Gallagher, as well as (probably) enjoying further progression from two key young players in Beaulieu and Galchenyuk. They've also replaced that clown Eller with a better overall player in Shaw.

So my take on it is that this team will be top-10 for sure. The Habs had better win the Cup over the next couple of years, because the longer this Old Boy bum-buddy management group is in charge, the more corroded our core is likely to become by asinine decision-making.

The best thing about this all is that Radulov continues to fly under the radar....

This guy is going to be great from the get go!!

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