Commandant Posted August 13, 2016 Share Posted August 13, 2016 Hamonic is still on the Islanders and Drouin is still on the Lightning. Not necessarily the exact same thing but it's safe to say both teams would have/will lose if they move them as well. Smart GMing so far on both parts. Hamonic never fought with the Islanders. He wanted to go home to be near a sick relative. That situation has resolved itself (came to its unfortunate conclusion), and he's no longer trying to leave the Isles. I don't think that is the same thing as a player feuding with management. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xXx..CK..xXx Posted August 13, 2016 Share Posted August 13, 2016 Hamonic never fought with the Islanders. He wanted to go home to be near a sick relative. That situation has resolved itself (came to its unfortunate conclusion), and he's no longer trying to leave the Isles. I don't think that is the same thing as a player feuding with management. I think that when it comes to potentially trading a player it is the same thing because in this situation it became public. I was surprised to hear that decent players from the Peg and Alberta were being offered because the other teams had no moral obligation to welcome Hamonic home. They could have been sharks feeding on a fish. Hamonic's situation was even worse than a player feuding with management because his teams were limited to 2 or 3. I was simply agreeing with Machine and stating that it puts management in a precarious position. It doesn't matter if it's a fight or a personal issue, the team was likely to lose out. In either scenario it was not the GM's original intention to have to move the player so they have to be a little more creative to get fair value. Both teams were probably smart to hold out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted August 13, 2016 Share Posted August 13, 2016 Yeah but I mean not that I buy into it myself but if there is an argument that say Bergevin traded players like Kassian, Subban etc. in part due to ego (I know he warned Kassian) then these GMs didn't make the same mistake. Snow could have traded Hamonic at low value and Yzerman could have done the same with Drouin. As I said, both teams could still lose the "fight" you mentioned although I admit that I didn't realize Hamonic's personal issues had been resolved. I'm talking more stuff like Roy vs. Habs, not guys asking for trades. Especially since Subban never asked to be traded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xXx..CK..xXx Posted August 13, 2016 Share Posted August 13, 2016 I'm talking more stuff like Roy vs. Habs, not guys asking for trades. Especially since Subban never asked to be traded. But there wasn't any Subban vs the Habs either... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illWill Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 So we were talking power play prowess. Now I understand that people normally will not change a stance easily, but I'm gonna whip a dead horse here. Goals are equal to assists? If you want to think a second assist is equal to a goal, that's your deal. Don't continue reading. For me, A second assist is not the same as burying a puck. PK had 19 first assists last season out of his 45. He had 7 first assists and 2 goals on the PP. The rest of his PP points were him passing the puck or just touching it before someone else set up or scored a goal. So 9 of his PP points were direct impact. 1st assist or goal. Weber had 25 assists but 13 were first assists. On the PP he had 4 first assists and 14 goals. He directly impacted the PP 18 times. Obviously there is more to it than this, and some second assists will be what created the goal, but I think to just blurt out that assists and goals are exactly the same, to me it just doesn't add up. If you look through this thread you can see that I hate this trade, but I am willing to look at some of the positives and how they will affect team balance. Of course goals are more valuable than assists, anybody arguing differently is just plain wrong. I didn't know those numbers from last year but it paints a contrasting picture. I had Subban in one of my pools and remember getting alot of chintzy assists from him but didn't know to that degree. My buddies were even making comments about phantom assists from him all the time and I was calling them haters I know opinions are what it's all about but it's not a fact that the team got worse due to the trade. People who are saying this are looking at the trade at such a microscopic level. A trade of that magnitude reverberates throughout many levels and even IF one argued that Subban is better than Weber skill wise, it's doesn't even mean the team as a whole gets worse. I've read that you think that this is a silly argument but the trade has exponential effects. It's more than looking at it 1vs1. I won't argue that we don't get Radulov if we don't trade Subban for Weber because that would be theoretical but I do believe we made a harder push for Radulov than we may have after trading for Weber. Some aren't interested in the butterfly effect theory and are only focused on the 1 for 1 trade. We don't know for sure that it helped in signing Radulov, but we do know that it didn't hurt it. Cap savings and Weber's better reputation among players are definitely a definitive measuring tool though when it comes to recruiting at this point in time. Milan freaking Lucic pondered the thought of signing with the hated Habs, that says alot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IN THE HEARTS OF MEN Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 Then why did you just say let's see how Subban does when "the price isn't right"Meant more so how he'll do "not on the habs" clearly it didn't read that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IN THE HEARTS OF MEN Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 We need to all get something straight... Therrien is NO sir Alex Ferguson And PK Subban is NO Saint Patrick Roy!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nihilz Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 We should close this thread and bury it somewhere in the recesses of the deep net. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9wsjroVlu8 WTF IS PK LOADLETTER!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 We need to all get something straight... Therrien is NO sir Alex Ferguson And PK Subban is NO Saint Patrick Roy!! Well yeah, P.K. looks like he can coach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IN THE HEARTS OF MEN Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 From a Predators fan on HFBoards: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illWill Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 How much of corsi is comprised of beating the hell out of someone who messes with your teammate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IN THE HEARTS OF MEN Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 Arrivederci mon ami, i will miss you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 Thats even assuming a couple punches in the face stops players from going to the net. If you are an NHL player, and you make millions in the league, or like $70,000 in the AHL... why do you stop going to the net? Guys need to score, go to the net, cause havoc to stay in the league, and if the cost of that is a defenceman punching someone, oh well. Maybe this theory worked when the differences in money were so great but not so much anymore. Add in that the Instigator rule means your team is going to get a PP, and is going to get the other team's best defenceman (in Weber's case with habs) off the ice for 7 minutes. And yeah the theory doesn't really hold up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 How much of corsi is comprised of beating the hell out of someone who messes with your teammate? How much of your best defencemen spending 7 minutes in the box is a good idea. The Corsi would suggest this is a bad idea. How much of this is a deterrence to future messing with teammates. Statsitically speaking... there is no evidence that more fighting leads to more wins or less injuries. So whats the point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illWill Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 How much of your best defencemen spending 7 minutes in the box is a good idea. The Corsi would suggest this is a bad idea. How much of this is a deterrence to future messing with teammates. Statsitically speaking... there is no evidence that more fighting leads to more wins or less injuries. So whats the point? I just hope that "analytically average" Shea Weber can hold a roster spot on the Habs this season. If he just stops with all that toughness, leadership and winning, and focuses on his corsi, he might be okay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IN THE HEARTS OF MEN Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 How much of corsi is comprised of beating the hell out of someone who messes with your teammate? physically sticking up for your team mate and for your self always and you bring up corsi.... WE ARE A SOFT HOCKEY TEAM!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nihilz Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 I'd like to chime in on this Weber-Suban debate... been awhile since I've posted here, so bare with me... 150% with you. Great post imho. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nihilz Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 Eye for an eye! What an animal. Chuck Norris wears Shea Weber pj's to bed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nihilz Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 Out of curiosity what are the odds Josi is going to be less effective because he doesn't have Weber beside him? Maybe his game will suffer as he won't have the slack to push offense like he does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 Out of curiosity what are the odds Josi is going to be less effective because he doesn't have Weber beside him? Maybe his game will suffer as he won't have the slack to push offense like he does. 60-40 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 Eye for an eye! What an animal. Chuck Norris wears Shea Weber pj's to bed. Larry Robinson 2.0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 Out of curiosity what are the odds Josi is going to be less effective because he doesn't have Weber beside him? Maybe his game will suffer as he won't have the slack to push offense like he does.It's possible but Nashville also has Ekholm and Ellis, both very gifted defenceman as well. And Subban of course. If Weber comes up short it's all on Beaulieu or Petry because Markov is too old to carry the load. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 Funny we like to bring up what NHL GMs value... but then we also bring up fighting. This is something that 30 NHL GMs have shown, through their own actions, has less value today than it ever has. Do you guys think it is coincidence that fighting in the NHL is less than half of what it was 10 years ago, and that GMs are putting less and less value on those players who stick up for team mates. Its dying, whether you want it to or not. For reasons we have gone over millions of times. But I'm glad we took a less talented player cause he's better at facepunching. That makes the trade so much more appealing now... how did I miss this important aspect of the deal. As for where intangibles show up in advanced stats... here is the thing, if intangibles lead to teammates playing better, if they actually lead to more wins as you propose... that would show up in the stats under wins and losses; improved possession, more goals, less goals against, or some other stat. It would be measurable somewhere. At the very least it would show up in the win column. and if its not showing up in the win column, why do i care about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 It's possible but Nashville also has Ekholm and Ellis, both very gifted defenceman as well. And Subban of course. If Weber comes up short it's all on Beaulieu or Petry because Markov is too old to carry the load. You are actually comparing Ellis or Ekholm to Markov (even at 37-38), both have had maybe a 30pt season each, Markov could still get that in his sleep 3rd pairing minutes and zero PP time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nihilz Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 You are actually comparing Ellis or Ekholm to Markov (even at 37-38), both have had maybe a 30pt season each, Markov could still get that in his sleep 3rd pairing minutes and zero PP time. Yea I think Ellis especially is very overrated. Especially since Weber & Jones got moved, I think he's been sheltered well for most of his career as RD. Ekholm.. we'll see. I like him, but have to see if he can be depended on for consistent minutes. I feel like Im at a bar with a bunch of guys that just got dumped all at the same time lmao Man crushes run deep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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