Machine of Loving Grace Posted September 8, 2016 Share Posted September 8, 2016 So is Jake Muzzin Like this shouldn't be about Subban vs. Weber when talking Team Canada. Bouwmeester, Muzzin, and Vlasic vs. Subban, Letang, and Giordano is obvious to everyone except Team Canada it seems. But nah they the experts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IN THE HEARTS OF MEN Posted September 8, 2016 Share Posted September 8, 2016 Where does David Poile stand in this list of respected NHL managers? the man who has acquired.... Rod Langway, Scott Stevens, Kevin Hatcher, Sergei Gonchar, Calle Johanssen, Ryan Suter, Shea Weber, Kimmo Timmonen, Seth Jones, Kevin Klein, Roman Josi, and numerous other quality dmen in the last 30 years stand? Cause he wanted Subban. Does his opinion matter? Does it fall under the category of Age and Stats? What about the numerous other former players and management who said Subban is better, do we only present the guys who favor Weber? And a number of others have said montreal got fleeced, but we won't talk about them.... cause while current hockey guys won't (And haven't gone on record on the deal) a number of former hockey guys, now analysts, claim monteal was fleeced. Of your list.... how do all those people agree it was weber over subban... cause team canada picked him that means every person in the room supported the decision? you were there and there were no dissenting opinions? Really? Show me the quote from Armstrong or Quenneville or Julien or Murray or any of them that says Weber is better. only one of your list has even said that, Carey Price. Every other player has either said nothing, or said nice things about Weber without comparing the two. Once again you put words into people's mouths... saying Subban is better than Weber is bashing weber... saying something nice about weber without mentioning subban is now Mike Babcock saying that the Habs won the deal. When you have to twist words into things that weren't actually said, your argument must really suck. actually... i have yet to hear or read any current GM, coach or elite player say subban is better or that montreal got fleeced... if ive missed any please remind me who they are... Seems that the only people on the subban wagon>>>fans and media personalities but not the actual minds that are paid to run actual teams or play actual games.... as for poile... it was a no brainer this move... subban is a media darling that will help build the nashville brand... they need that!! i wouldn't doubt subban will be more important on the PR side helping to build the fan base in the music city. he's much more valuable to a small market team with his larger then life, bigger then the team character. the writing was on the wall the moment he announced his commitment to donate to the hospital in the atrium and not a single member of the habs organization was present... rumour has it that he kept it secret from the whole team and missed practise and then dropped the bombshell on the team that didnt sit well with anyone!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted September 8, 2016 Share Posted September 8, 2016 I haven't heard anyone (other than Price and Bergevin) expressly say that Weber is better than Subban either. Thats the point. NO EXISTING GMS have said that despite what Link wants you to believe. GMs never comment on other teams trades in that way. It just doesn't happen. So this supposed long list that said Weber was better, none of them ever said that. They have all just said Weber is a really good player... which is something every one here says. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted September 8, 2016 Share Posted September 8, 2016 Like this shouldn't be about Subban vs. Weber when talking Team Canada. Bouwmeester, Muzzin, and Vlasic vs. Subban, Letang, and Giordano is obvious to everyone except Team Canada it seems. But nah they the experts. I liked Meller93's comments on this. It's about Players Who Fit Into The System - which exemplifies modern NHL coaching/managing, and, in my opinion, exactly what is wrong with it (and why it's so often so dull). You cut the players to fit the system rather than the other way around. Last time around, Team Canada played a highly structured, hermetically sealed defensive game. That was the entire concept. Looked at that way, it makes some sense to keep a Subban off the squad. I don't think he is nearly as "high risk" as he is made out to be, but there's no denying that he is NOT the go-to guy if you want players who will mechanically implement generic plays over and over. Which is what they want. It's not about players making things happen. It's about the coaches micro-managing to the greatest extent possible. I've said before, I question whether Guy Lafleur (who could not make a set play to save his life) or Bobby Orr (who was a truly radical talent absolutely incompatible with these constipated games plans) would be embraced today in the way they were at the time. Even Gretzky...his two-way game was nonexistent. Maybe today he would be a "project" for coaches to "fix." The other thing that bugs me about the obsession with "The System" is that it can easily slide over into at least a partial confusion of style with substance. There is an absolutely massive bias in the NHL against players who are brash, who have personality and flair. Those guys are automatically suspect (unless they're goons or big tough guys, in which case it seems to be more acceptable). It's a culture of conformity, exemplified by the utter automaton that is Jonathan Toews, and I think a lot of hockey people have a visceral disliking of players that refuse to damp down their personalities, period. And - like it or not - this probably leaks into their personnel decisions. What's really puzzling about this is that it's a fairly recent development. Hockey in the 1970s and into the 80s was chock-full of crazy characters and larger-than-life personalities. What the hell happened? When did this become a cardinal sin? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted September 8, 2016 Share Posted September 8, 2016 actually... i have yet to hear or read any current GM, coach or elite player say subban is better or that montreal got fleeced... if ive missed any please remind me who they are... Seems that the only people on the subban wagon>>>fans and media personalities but not the actual minds that are paid to run actual teams or play actual games.... So you never heard Poile? Also a lot of media personalities prefer Weber. They happen to be Don Cherry, Steve Simmonds, and other media people that Habs fans usually hate. They all like the deal for Montreal. Pat Hickey liked it. Most of the hockey world is coming to the defence of Weber over the fan reaction and that the majority of the analytic community is against the trade for Montreal, and anything involving them leads to a backlash. It's not surprising. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted September 8, 2016 Share Posted September 8, 2016 Yeah most media reacted that Nashville won the trade when it first went down (with the exception of Cherry, Simmons etc....) Despite 0 games being played, that opinion has changed. I don't get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted September 8, 2016 Share Posted September 8, 2016 Yeah most media reacted that Nashville won the trade when it first went down (with the exception of Cherry, Simmons etc....) Despite 0 games being played, that opinion has changed. I don't get it. Appeal to authority mostly. That and when it was hot it was a great click for websites. Also people pay more attention to contracts in the off season. During the season not so much until the player goes on a cold streak. Nobody cared how much Gomez made when he had 14 points in the playoffs in 2010. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovett's Magnatones Posted September 8, 2016 Share Posted September 8, 2016 So you never heard Poile? Also a lot of media personalities prefer Weber. They happen to be Don Cherry, Steve Simmonds, and other media people that Habs fans usually hate. They all like the deal for Montreal. Pat Hickey liked it. Most of the hockey world is coming to the defence of Weber over the fan reaction and that the majority of the analytic community is against the trade for Montreal, and anything involving them leads to a backlash. It's not surprising. You hit on something I was going to add, these comments are very sympathetic to the plight of Shea Weber. Should be actally be slowing down or in a full decline, he might live out the rest of his career like a Scott Gomez. Gomer had a good season before the wheels came off the bus, and I could see the same thing happening to Weber in two or three. But not with the same virulence, hopefully. You hope the fans learn lessons from players like Briesbois or Gomez. What if they go out early the next two years and Price leaves? Good grief. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted September 8, 2016 Share Posted September 8, 2016 You hope the fans learn lessons from players like Briesbois or Gomez. What if they go out early the next two years and Price leaves? Good grief. Imagine if there was no compulsory buyout and Gomez had eight more years of contract left. That's the scenario in your mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted September 8, 2016 Share Posted September 8, 2016 do we only present the guys who favor Weber? Heck no not you, it seems that you would rather eat glass before expand on anything positive about Weber, who is the new Habs stud. Odd stance for a so called Habs fan? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meller93 Posted September 8, 2016 Share Posted September 8, 2016 Heck no not you, it seems that you would rather eat glass before expand on anything positive about Weber, who is the new Habs stud. Odd stance for a so called Habs fan? You have to go just a page back to see commandant saying " are there areas Weber is better? Yes." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted September 8, 2016 Share Posted September 8, 2016 Yeah most media reacted that Nashville won the trade when it first went down (with the exception of Cherry, Simmons etc....) Despite 0 games being played, that opinion has changed. I don't get it. pssst... that maybe is why you arnt a NHL GM! If you are basing your opinion on media reactions, that is your first huge mistake. You have to go just a page back to see commandant saying " are there areas Weber is better? Yes." And that is the total extent of his scouting report on Weber and always follows up with a "but Subban" ...this or that is better". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted September 8, 2016 Author Share Posted September 8, 2016 More stuff from a Friedman interview where he talked about Price's comments (included is a comment about Team Canada's structure and sacrifice from the players being a big key to their success in recent tournaments): http://www.todaysslapshot.com/nichols-notes/friedman-shares-insight-23-minutes-offering/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted September 8, 2016 Share Posted September 8, 2016 More stuff from a Friedman interview where he talked about Price's comments (included is a comment about Team Canada's structure and sacrifice from the players being a big key to their success in recent tournaments): http://www.todaysslapshot.com/nichols-notes/friedman-shares-insight-23-minutes-offering/ "P.K. is going to be a motivated guy. Hes on a team that has a better chance to win the Stanley Cup now, I think, than Montreal does." Friedman dropping the gauntlet. Ouch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted September 8, 2016 Author Share Posted September 8, 2016 "P.K. is going to be a motivated guy. Hes on a team that has a better chance to win the Stanley Cup now, I think, than Montreal does." Friedman dropping the gauntlet. Ouch. I think Subban said pretty much the same thing following the trade. That said, they're in the division of death with Chicago, St. Louis, and Dallas so I have a hard time thinking of them as being real contenders when they're probably no better than third. Mind you, third place in the division for the Habs is also a distinct possibility...long story short, I don't think his chances really changed all that much moving from one team to the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted September 8, 2016 Share Posted September 8, 2016 You honestly think Montreal has the same shot at winning a cup as Nashville? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott462 Posted September 8, 2016 Share Posted September 8, 2016 I do If you think about it we have better goaltending by a pretty large margin. I think our forwards are a little better, the only thing I think Nashville has over us is their D and who knows if there guys will mesh well with Weber gone. They also lost their leader for many years. It will be interesting how to club reacts to that and who steps up to take Webers spot. Maybe Fisher? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted September 8, 2016 Author Share Posted September 8, 2016 You honestly think Montreal has the same shot at winning a cup as Nashville? I think neither team has much of a shot realistically. I have a hard time seeing Nashville get out of their division which means they're out by the end of the second round. I can see Montreal winning a round (we've seen Price steal lots of games before and who knows how the new-look team performs offensively) which puts them at the same level of the postseason as well. From that standpoint, he went from a team that could make it as far as the second round to a team that could make it as far as the second round. In that case, his shot at winning this year didn't change one bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted September 8, 2016 Share Posted September 8, 2016 The reliability of the Giveaway stat and the bell centre. Giveaways at home.Subban - 67 markov - 69 Emelin - 51 Petry - 39 Total = 226 Giveaways on the road Subban 39 Markov 24 Emelin 24 Petry 11 = 98 Do you guys really think this is a reliable stat that is consistent rink to rink, when the top 4 Habs have more than double the giveaways at home vs on the road? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted September 8, 2016 Share Posted September 8, 2016 I think neither team has much of a shot realistically. I have a hard time seeing Nashville get out of their division which means they're out by the end of the second round. I can see Montreal winning a round (we've seen Price steal lots of games before and who knows how the new-look team performs offensively) which puts them at the same level of the postseason as well. From that standpoint, he went from a team that could make it as far as the second round to a team that could make it as far as the second round. In that case, his shot at winning this year didn't change one bit. I think Nashville probably has a stronger roster than the Habs do, on paper. Johansen is more credible as a stud C than Galchenyuk (although that may change this year), their first three lines seem better balanced than ours, and their D is stronger, as whole (and no, this is not a shot at poor ol' Weber). The big question mark is Rinne. If he can return to his formerly elite form, then I don't see how Nashville fails to be rated good enough to do serious damage despite the division. If he clocks in at a .908 save percentage again, well, that's not Cup-worthy netminding unless you're the Blackhawks. And even then it's a stretch. Chercher le gardien... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted September 8, 2016 Share Posted September 8, 2016 I think Nashville probably has a stronger roster than the Habs do, on paper. Johansen is more credible as a stud C than Galchenyuk (although that may change this year), their first three lines seem better balanced than ours, and their D is stronger, as whole (and no, this is not a shot at poor ol' Weber). The big question mark is Rinne. If he can return to his formerly elite form, then I don't see how Nashville fails to be rated good enough to do serious damage despite the division. If he clocks in at a .908 save percentage again, well, that's not Cup-worthy netminding unless you're the Blackhawks. And even then it's a stretch. Chercher le gardien... Yeah, Nashville is likely a prime candidate to pick up a goalie at trade deadline in case Rinne slips. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted September 8, 2016 Share Posted September 8, 2016 Year before last Rinne had like 40 wins. I'm sure he'll be fine. I honestly think Nashville has a shot at the cup. They probably have the best D-core in the league(or best top pair anyways). Solid forward group, with good scoring depth down the middle of the ice. They also have a couple guys who are close to breaking out too. Nashville also gained a playoff beast in Subban. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted September 8, 2016 Author Share Posted September 8, 2016 I think Nashville probably has a stronger roster than the Habs do, on paper. Johansen is more credible as a stud C than Galchenyuk (although that may change this year), their first three lines seem better balanced than ours, and their D is stronger, as whole (and no, this is not a shot at poor ol' Weber). The big question mark is Rinne. If he can return to his formerly elite form, then I don't see how Nashville fails to be rated good enough to do serious damage despite the division. If he clocks in at a .908 save percentage again, well, that's not Cup-worthy netminding unless you're the Blackhawks. And even then it's a stretch. Chercher le gardien... I wouldn't disagree that on paper, Nashville's skaters trump Montreal. Rinne hasn't exactly been high-end too often lately though. 3 of the last 4 years, his save percentage is .910 or lower which is below average. (Even his 2 playoff appearances in that span are sub-.910.) If you want to go through both Chicago and Dallas, that's not going to cut it and I don't see Rinne magically becoming the pre-lockout star that he was all of a sudden. If that team has a high end goalie, they can get through the division. Nashville doesn't have that and I don't see them being able to get one in-season (there aren't going to be many starter upgrades available come January/February) which is why I don't see them having a Cup-contending type of year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted September 8, 2016 Share Posted September 8, 2016 Their goals for and against was middle of NHL pack last year and not sure they actually added any impact forwards up front did they? And they also need to battle some real western contenders often wont they? Playoff beast, haha funny guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott462 Posted September 8, 2016 Share Posted September 8, 2016 I honestly think Nashville will have a hard time with all the big hard playing forwards in there conference now. It's going to be hard for them to stop the cycling none of their D are imposing guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.