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Subban traded to Nashville

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21 hours ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

I'm fine with Weber the person/hockey player. He doesn't deserve to be booed or anything. My focus has been completely on Bergevin and Habs management. I'll discuss Weber as a hockey player, his strengths and weaknesses, poke holes in perceived strengths, etc. but if he had come to Montreal any other way I wouldn't have cared. He's not my problem. My problem is that I feel Bergevin never wanted Subban on the team and just lied about it for years. I have zero trust in the current management. Not gonna support the team with this management.

 

Let me put it this way. Say Montreal traded P.K. Subban for Drew Doughty. I'd still have a problem with Habs management.

 

I can respect this opinion but as a fellow fan I'd like to help make you aware that in the long run, it's not fair to judge management on one move and one move only because everybody will have varying opinions. It's cliche, but no player is bigger than the team and once again in the long run giving up on management means that you think the player involved is much bigger than he is, especially when we consider that we don't know everything.

 

I can relate because I experienced exactly what you are going through right now last season. I was in the <10% minority and people will cringe when I bring up the name(s) but I questioned my faith in management with the handling of the Semin situation. Semin and Subban are not comparable in talent but I questioned Bergevin because he rid the team of the player HE brought in as the solution to our most glaring problem. Once Semin didn't work out, he also shipped Kassian out for a terrible return. 

 

I don't think I need to go into any more detail about the specifics but the point is that I started questioning Bergevin already a year ago. With that being said, I questioned the handling of a situation that seemingly 75% of the population didn't see as an issue. Was I in the minority and incorrect or was I a prophet with other people only beginning to see the light now? 

 

The interesting thing is that even with my experience last year, management isn't the target of my personal blame for this trade. I hear and accept all those "but Subban is the best player we had since Lafleur" rebuttles but your trust in management should be malleable and if Bergevin hits a home run in the future and you still think about this trade, then you may realize something is off on your end. 

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1 hour ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

 

I can respect this opinion but as a fellow fan I'd like to help make you aware that in the long run, it's not fair to judge management on one move and one move only because everybody will have varying opinions. It's cliche, but no player is bigger than the team and once again in the long run giving up on management means that you think the player involved is much bigger than he is, especially when we consider that we don't know everything.

 

I can relate because I experienced exactly what you are going through right now last season. I was in the <10% minority and people will cringe when I bring up the name(s) but I questioned my faith in management with the handling of the Semin situation. Semin and Subban are not comparable in talent but I questioned Bergevin because he rid the team of the player HE brought in as the solution to our most glaring problem. Once Semin didn't work out, he also shipped Kassian out for a terrible return. 

 

I don't think I need to go into any more detail about the specifics but the point is that I started questioning Bergevin already a year ago. With that being said, I questioned the handling of a situation that seemingly 75% of the population didn't see as an issue. Was I in the minority and incorrect or was I a prophet with other people only beginning to see the light now? 

 

The interesting thing is that even with my experience last year, management isn't the target of my personal blame for this trade. I hear and accept all those "but Subban is the best player we had since Lafleur" rebuttles but your trust in management should be malleable and if Bergevin hits a home run in the future and you still think about this trade, then you may realize something is off on your end. 

Semin's whooping 1g in 15gms, lead feet and soft play has him in the KHL for good reason and Kassian is a drunk who supposedly was given fair warning by Bergevin when he came here; so not sure what you really have to complain about with those two low risk signings that fit under the cap (Now the earlier Briere signing was one I shook my head at and Emelin/Desharnais signings also have turned out poorly).

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1 hour ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

I can respect this opinion but as a fellow fan I'd like to help make you aware that in the long run, it's not fair to judge management on one move and one move only because everybody will have varying opinions. 

 

If you think this is just one move and not an entire indictment of the Bergevin/Therrien regime there was no sense writing anything after this sentence.

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5 hours ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

Actually, as you can see, it was Doctor CK who took out the ad :blush: I fooled everybody on here. 

 

 

:o I think CC and Habs rule want a few bucks! :lol::lol::lol:

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7 hours ago, DON said:

Semin's whooping 1g in 15gms, lead feet and soft play has him in the KHL for good reason and Kassian is a drunk who supposedly was given fair warning by Bergevin when he came here; so not sure what you really have to complain about with those two low risk signings that fit under the cap (Now the earlier Briere signing was one I shook my head at and Emelin/Desharnais signings also have turned out poorly).

Every time the Semin example is brought up people say the same thing as you are but the point has nothing to do with Semin's skill level and rather that he was the one Bergevin chose to fill our most obvious need. No matter how you spin it, Bergevin made a mistake with the way that situation was handled. Releasing Semin within two months of signing him was literally just Bergevin admitting that he made a mistake. Semin was crap but there was no one else to fill the spot he was playing in anyway. If soneone could convince me that Bergevin had this amazing vision that it was the perfect time to bring Daniel Carr into the league anyway, then I'd change my stance. 

 

Kassian being traded was no surprise but the only reason it mattered at all was because we still needed a player with top 6 potential. Kassian may be a drunk but anything I've seen out of him on the Oilers has been decent. 

 

I wouldn't want either of those players on my current habs squad but my point is that you can't judge management based on one move. I did the same thing last season. 

 

I haven't seen eye to eye with some individual moves myself but many are agreeing that the Habs are arguably better on paper than they have been in some time. Recently, the Subban trade has been the reason that most have been upset with management.

 

If it's not only the Subban trade that has people questioning management, then I'm not sure how we've come to the conclusion that the team is currently stronger than it has been in seasons. 

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17 hours ago, habs rule said:
8 hours ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

Every time the Semin example is brought up people say the same thing as you are but the point has nothing to do with Semin's skill level and rather that he was the one Bergevin chose to fill our most obvious need. 

If was no salary cap, would of been likely easy to get a better free agent, you do know there is a salary cap don't you? And if you wanted to undo Petry signing, he would of had plenty of $$ for a RWer like Radulov last year. But cant have cake and ...

 

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I wasn't terribly grouchy about Bergevin before the Subban trade. He really hadn't made any major moves up to that point, and his minor moves, when errors, were generally easily fixable. Some fans attacked him for 'failing to put his stamp on the team.' Since he inherited (and added to, with Galchenyuk and Petry) a strong core - superstar G, superstar D, top-5 goal-scorer, Gallagher - I didn't see this as a legit criticism, and figured that he was waiting for the right low-cost opportunity to add the missing top-6 FW and tougher bottom-6.

 

Then he went and made a 'big move.' In my opinion, the particular move he chose was completely unnecessary. It neither made the team better, nor did it address any actual problem. And he happened to ship away the franchise's most charismatic and exciting player, as well as its first non-goalie superstar since Lafleur, in the process: the goal apparently being to refashion the squad to suit the forgettable plodder of a coach that is Michel Therrien. The result is a team that isn't better for the trade - and will actually be worse off in the medium and long run - but is a heck of a lot more boring and less likeable.

 

So, NOW I'm grumpy about Bergevin. Thus, I come down the middle between cheerleader DON and Dr. CX ;)

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Is anybody else watching the Preds game tonight?  I'm interested to see what PK 'unleashed' will look like...I expect a few highlight reel moments from him on the rush.

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2 hours ago, sbhatt said:

Is anybody else watching the Preds game tonight?  I'm interested to see what PK 'unleashed' will look like...I expect a few highlight reel moments from him on the rush.

 

I should be, depending on how work is.

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8 hours ago, DON said:

 

I kind of agree DON, the only thing is that I'm not in the group that would say that Bergevin played the entire situation well.

 

Group A: Fine with the Semin pickup. Cheap and low risk if it does not work out.

Group B: Dislike the Semin pickup. He's washed up, why waste your time?

 

Group A: Fine with Bergevin buying out/cutting Semin. He was useless in his 15 games anyway.

Group B: Semin Should have been kept. He may not be producing but he's the player we got to fill the hole. 

 

Personally I'm a Group A - Group B myself so it's not like I think he played the entire situation wrong but I didn't agree with part of it. You have to be a Group A - Group A person to think he did everything right and I actually think it's quite hard to be a Group A - Group A person because they are almost contradictory after only 15 games. If you either disliked the pickup or think he should have been kept simply because he was already on the squad anyway, then you're going to think Bergevin did something wrong there. I'm sure there are people in Group B out there as well. You make a good point that there is a salary cap and that perhaps his hands were tied but the problem was a structural one for a long time. I also understand that this move is considered minor but it's still Bergevin behind the helm and I was personally questioning him for the first time. That's all I'm saying. 

 

I'm fine with being in the minority on that one because that's exactly my point. One year later and Semin is gone and we have Alexander Radulov. I'm not saying it will happen but if in a year the Habs have acquired Kris Letang or Sergachev/Beaulieu become a player of a similar mould to Subban, then I think it's fair to say that people's perception of management should be allowed to change. That's not to say that people can't hate the trade forever, but in the grand scheme of things, we did technically acquire Radulov and Weber while losing Subban and if our team can be better for it, then management could quite possibly deserve a pat on the back. Time will tell. 

 

 

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20 minutes ago, Lovett's Magnatones said:

First goal of the year for Nashville.

 

On the powerplay.

 

Do I even have to finish this thought?

 

How about:

 

- Laviolette has Subban moving, and his powerplay moving, and the Blackhawks have no idea what to do about it

- Laviolette also separated his two top offensive defencemen on the PP so teams don't know which unit to defend against. What has happened tonight? Subban scores on the first PP, Josi scores the next. 

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49 minutes ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

How about:

 

- Laviolette has Subban moving, and his powerplay moving, and the Blackhawks have no idea what to do about it

- Laviolette also separated his two top offensive defencemen on the PP so teams don't know which unit to defend against. What has happened tonight? Subban scores on the first PP, Josi scores the next. 

Wow, it's like they have an NHL caliber management team!

 

They've got PK manning the top of the umbrella and the other four are down low. I remember they tried an umbrella for like three powerplays.

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Subban chosen as player of the game by captain Fisher. I wonder if that's a new feeling for him.

 

Subban decided to play pure aggression whenever the best Blackhawks were on the ice. He took Toews down, punched him in the back of the head and then shouted something to him (I'm sure all speculation is based on Toews tweet about Weber), then he roughed Kane up in a corner, punched him in the face and Kane fell like he was uppercutted (both got penalties, Kane for embellishment) but then with the final two minutes of the game he decided to get real aggressive with Hossa near the net and took an ugly penalty that the Predators thankfully battled off.

 

He played great defence for the most part in the game, only being less than stellar on the Blackhawks second goal. There were two instances where he broke up two on one plays and did a solid job retrieving pucks. He was honestly a little slower than I recall seeing him last year but a lot smarter when it came to carrying the puck up the ice.

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3 hours ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

Subban chosen as player of the game by captain Fisher. I wonder if that's a new feeling for him.

 

Subban decided to play pure aggression whenever the best Blackhawks were on the ice. He took Toews down, punched him in the back of the head and then shouted something to him (I'm sure all speculation is based on Toews tweet about Weber), then he roughed Kane up in a corner, punched him in the face and Kane fell like he was uppercutted (both got penalties, Kane for embellishment) but then with the final two minutes of the game he decided to get real aggressive with Hossa near the net and took an ugly penalty that the Predators thankfully battled off.

 

He played great defence for the most part in the game, only being less than stellar on the Blackhawks second goal. There were two instances where he broke up two on one plays and did a solid job retrieving pucks. He was honestly a little slower than I recall seeing him last year but a lot smarter when it came to carrying the puck up the ice.

Great n thanks, and when are you reviewing some other non-hab, I am really looking forward to it. 

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Yep, Bergevin traded away the only reason to watch the team to be the fourth banana in the East. At best. 

 

Coming to a theatre near you:

 

Slow Shea and the Stickchecks starring Movie Max

 

Who the hell would want to watch that?

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12 minutes ago, Lovett's Magnatones said:

Yep, Bergevin traded away the only reason to watch the team to be the fourth banana in the East. At best.

 

If the Carey Price flu doesn't last the whole season, I don't see the team doing worse than third in their division. Depends on how Florida does with their new look defence. 

 

Price is healthy, plays his ass off, Therrien works him to the bone like you know he will, Montreal can take the division and possibly the conference but there won't be much left in the tank come playoff time.

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39 minutes ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

If the Carey Price flu doesn't last the whole season, I don't see the team doing worse than third in their division. Depends on how Florida does with their new look defence. 

 

Price is healthy, plays his ass off, Therrien works him to the bone like you know he will, Montreal can take the division and possibly the conference but there won't be much left in the tank come playoff time.

Price has played too much? What, you must be running out of things to complain about? You want Montoya to play more than 20-25gms, is that it?

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I have no doubt at all that PK Subban is going to dominate all season. He has always been a stellar player in all three zones, despite the BS about him being defensively sketchy; at 27 he is entering his prime years; and he is on a team that actually values him, instead of having coaches continually telling him that he is doing everything wrong all the time.

 

That said, I've been dreading the inevitable dynamic whereby every time he does something good (or bad), and/or Weber does something good (or bad), we get SEE? I TOLD YA SO posts. One game doth not a trade's merits determine.

 

Lovett is quite right that the Subban-less Habs are much less charismatic and exciting. However, the team, with Price healthy, will be a contender at best and a top-10 NHL team at worst.

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13 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

I have no doubt at all that PK Subban is going to dominate all season. He has always been a stellar player in all three zones,

Always been stellar in his own end? Now you are just talking foolishness and always been stellar in the neutral zone, not even sure what that means.

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Yes, Subban is an excellent overall player, including defensively. People have erroneously spun his occasional goofy plays in his own end into a narrative of a guy who can't play defence - a classic case of confusing the exception for the rule.

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34 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

Yes, Subban is an excellent overall player, including defensively. People have erroneously spun his occasional goofy plays in his own end into a narrative of a guy who can't play defence - a classic case of confusing the exception for the rule.

Kind of a Stockholm Syndrome, imo, where some fans need to spin every management action as being correct to keep their confidence in a team. The spin will only get worse as time goes on, like the Bruins fans with Tyler Seguin.

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2 hours ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

If the Carey Price flu doesn't last the whole season, I don't see the team doing worse than third in their division. Depends on how Florida does with their new look defence. 

 

Price is healthy, plays his ass off, Therrien works him to the bone like you know he will, Montreal can take the division and possibly the conference but there won't be much left in the tank come playoff time.

I saw the Panthers on Thursday and I wasn't impressed at all.  Of course, they're without Huberdeau and Bjugstad, so that has to temper expectations.

 

Their defense is much more mobile and they have Matheson and Ekblad improving as the years go on, but they might have the softest d-corp in the entire league. That defense is going to get crushed on the cycle. I wouldn't say that the d is worse than last, but they're going to chewed up by worse teams like Boston that know how to cycle and hold the puck. The whole team is soft as butter, and some of the guys (Pysyk, Marchessault) are creations of anyaltics. Vinnie Viola made his dough on Wall Street with a 100% analytic based approach with Virtu, so this could be the most purely analytics driven team in NHL history.

 

I'm very confused in general as to why they practically blew the team and the front office up after their best season in twenty years. I have the Habs ahead of them, and depending on their injury situation (Barkov the Bandaid Boy) they could fall right out of the playoff picture. Pierre said it best on TSN690; the Panthers are going to be a team to watch because they made a lot of decisions over the Summer that fly in the face of accepted orthodoxy.

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22 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

Yes, Subban is an excellent overall player, including defensively. People have erroneously spun his occasional goofy plays in his own end into a narrative of a guy who can't play defence - a classic case of confusing the exception for the rule.

That ex-hab has improved his defensive game over past couple years...but his fanclub leader wrote that he has "always been stellar" which is not really true, unless stellar is a much lower bar than I think. And of course he is an excellent overall player...not so much as a teammate some would argue though.

 

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