Guest Stogey24 Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 Rinne got run a few times last season with Weber on the ice. It infuriated Preds fans. Don't expect much. Exactly. You think anything is going to stop a guy like Rinaldo from "accidentally" running into price on a break. Not going to happen. It seems pretty clear that a healthy Carey Price is the biggest key to Habs' success. Weber helping to keep him clean is reason enough to do the deal on it's own. The intimidation factor that he brings with his size and willingness to use his body doesn't show up in statistical analysis, but it sticks in the minds of his opponents on the ice. I'm pretty sure that Price knows his job is going to be easier with Weber on the team and appreciates that. Subban for Weber because you think the trade will stop price from getting run? Why not keep Subban and bring John Scott back if you think intimidation is the leading factor in keeping price healthy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 When the only justifications for a trade are intangibles like intimidation, narratives that have repeatedly been shown to be false, you know that its just grasping at straws at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 I agree with you here except neither Subban nor Weber are third pairing defensemen. One could argue that Subban deserves to be on the team and one could also argue that Weber making the team means he's a stud of a defenseman, which he is. I honestly don't think people realize how much of a presence he is on both ends of the ice. Subban is much more of a presence on the rush but once the game is setup either in the defensive zone or offensive zone, I'd rather Weber and I think there are an honest amount of players who feel the same way when facing both players. I know Weber's defensive analytics weren't as high but I still like the physical presence he brings in the defensive end. Let's just hope he is paired with a mobile defenseman like Beaulieu, which he should be. See the problem here is its based on feelings.... numbers don't lie, they are objective, but you still feel that weber is better defensively. Players might feel that way too, but thats all it is feelings..... Feelings don't compete with cold hard facts. The reality is that Weber was outstanding in the defensive end, 4 years ago. He's dropped off, to the point he's below Subban. Those aren't feelings, they are cold hard fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illWill Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 Shut the site down, Habs are awful and aren't worthy of fans. Nothing to cheer for or any hope whatsoever. Price is an injury plagued bum, Galchenyuk is a party animal, Pacioretty can't lead, Gallagher is cool though, Shaw is an overpaid bigot, Radulov missed curfew years ago, Plekanec plays like a little girl wearing turtlenecks, Weber sucks all of the sudden, Markov can't skate, Emelin is as smart as a dumptruck, Desharnais only plays cause he is french, no prospects coming, Therrien couldn't coach Peewee, and Bergevin is obviously a moron disguised in nice clothes and hair. What shall we do with all our free time? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaos Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 Shut the site down, Habs are awful and aren't worthy of fans. Nothing to cheer for or any hope whatsoever. Price is an injury plagued bum, Galchenyuk is a party animal, Pacioretty can't lead, Gallagher is cool though, Shaw is an overpaid bigot, Radulov missed curfew years ago, Plekanec plays like a little girl wearing turtlenecks, Weber sucks all of the sudden, Markov can't skate, Emelin is as smart as a dumptruck, Desharnais only plays cause he is french, no prospects coming, Therrien couldn't coach Peewee, and Bergevin is obviously a moron disguised in nice clothes and hair. What shall we do with all our free time? Pretty accurately sums up the posting around here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habs rule Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 Pretty accurately sums up the posting around here Hey come on now, this is a discussion forum, sometimes that means venting. Also tarring everyone with the same brush is kind of goofy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 Apparently saying that someone isn't as good as Subban is now saying that they suck.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Ethan Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 LOL, who's "numbers don't lie"? You can find a set of stats to prove every disparate point of view. They are completely worthless in an endeavor as complex and variable as an athletic event involving 50 different individuals over a space of 2 hours or so. All the supercomputers in the world working full time couldn't calculate all the permutations. Having a group of men who have been involved in the game for a couple hundred cumulative years at every level determine that Shea Weber is a better defenseman than P.K. Subban trumps any zit picking geeks slumped over keyboards in Mom's basement for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 And a group of men who have been involved in the game for a couple hundred years cumulatively (David Poile and his management team) decided Subban was better than weber. The track record of that group includes acquiring..... Rod Langway, Scott Stevens, Kevin Hatcher, Sergei Gonchar, Calle Johannsen, Dan Hamhuis, Kimmo Timmonen, Shea Weber, Ryan Suter, Seth Jones, Ryan Ellis, Matthias Ekholm, Cody Franson, Roman Josi and on and on and on Also those stats that don't know anything? Funny how the team that wins the cup in every season since they have been recorded (except 1) has been top 5 in those stats. the one who wasn't, the 2009 penguins... who were a bad possession team in the first half of the season, but following the return of Sergei Gonchar and the hiring of Dan Bylsma were top 5 for the second half of the 2008-09 season. Possession... it works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalhabs Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 And a group of men who have been involved in the game for a couple hundred years cumulatively (David Poile and his management team) decided Subban was better than weber. The track record of that group includes acquiring..... Rod Langway, Scott Stevens, Kevin Hatcher, Sergei Gonchar, Calle Johannsen, Dan Hamhuis, Kimmo Timmonen, Shea Weber, Ryan Suter, Seth Jones, Ryan Ellis, Matthias Ekholm, Cody Franson, Roman Josi and on and on and on Also those stats that don't know anything? Funny how the team that wins the cup in every season since they have been recorded (except 1) has been top 5 in those stats. the one who wasn't, the 2009 penguins... who were a bad possession team in the first half of the season, but following the return of Sergei Gonchar and the hiring of Dan Bylsma were top 5 for the second half of the 2008-09 season. Possession... it works. Alot of people who knows alot of soccer and noone said Leicester would win the premier league but they did. Alot of people who knows all about nhl said habs would be a top10 team but they were not. I will wait until I see the team play before demanding the managements heads on platters. You should too instead of everybody saying you will not support the team anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Ethan Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 ^ this. All of the judgements about the trade being "bad" from Habs fans have come directly from geeks flinging stats like poo all over the internet. If you want to play the game by computer, go play Madden or whatever the hell the hockey computer games available are. That way everything unfolds according to the numbers used to create the game, and personality, psychology, emotion, courage, etc. don't enter in to the outcome. In REAL LIFE sports those things not only enter in to the outcome, they DETERMINE the outcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ehjay Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 ^ this. All of the judgements about the trade being "bad" from Habs fans have come directly from geeks flinging stats like poo all over the internet. If you want to play the game by computer, go play Madden or whatever the hell the hockey computer games available are. That way everything unfolds according to the numbers used to create the game, and personality, psychology, emotion, courage, etc. don't enter in to the outcome. In REAL LIFE sports those things not only enter in to the outcome, they DETERMINE the outcome. This is what Subban brings to the rink IMHO, it's okay if you don't think so but you have to admit that PK is an electrifying player and that the return is maybe the 'better player' today but come tomorrow Subban is the player that this Team will miss the most. Above Marky or Plecky or maybe even Weber once he retires,leaves or gets traded . I think that is what some of your post are forgetting. I believe the ppl on this board KNOW the Habs didn't get chopped liver in return for Subban yet it's the tomorrow that has sour fans getting pitch forks sharp and the kerosene on stand by. Not this leader stuff. I think that is bogus. That argument seems to me as a easy retort to what is not seeming to be a good trade for the future of the Habs. Who knows if there is another trade in the cards for Weber that can land the 'next one' but right now the light at the end of the D tunnel seems to be a wish mirage in pitch darkness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 ^ this. All of the judgements about the trade being "bad" from Habs fans have come directly from geeks flinging stats like poo all over the internet. If you want to play the game by computer, go play Madden or whatever the hell the hockey computer games available are. That way everything unfolds according to the numbers used to create the game, and personality, psychology, emotion, courage, etc. don't enter in to the outcome. In REAL LIFE sports those things not only enter in to the outcome, they DETERMINE the outcome. I wouldn't say it's just the stat people that don't like this trade. Aside from a handful of posters, this is not a board heavy on analytics discussion yet the majority really didn't like this trade. Lots of people here that don't look at the advanced stats too much didn't like the move. I don't think it's fair to be entirely dismissive of the analytics. There is certainly merit to them to the point where they should be considered routinely in evaluating potential moves. Where I personally differ from some of the more extreme stat people is that it shouldn't be the only factor that's considered. There are off-ice elements that can't simply be measured that should be considered as well. You shouldn't just have one or the other though, both have their place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Ethan Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 Maybe that viewpoint isn't prevalent here, but across the spectrum there appears to be an analytics guys vs. experienced hockey people divide in terms of the deal. The analytics guys don't even want to see how things play out. They "know" it's a bad deal and they have the numbers to (in their minds at least) prove it. But the whole analytics thing is an echo chamber. The people who love stats are the same ones running message boards as a rule. Lots of them dabble in both at the same time. So the people they are convincing are themselves, basically. Whatever gets you to sleep at the end of the evening, I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCHabnut Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 My biggest problem with this trade is that I was hoping the team would switch to a puck carrying team over time. Losing subban and Eller points toward a whole lot more crappy chip and chase. I'm pretty worried about the transition next year without those two. I'm not an Eller fan at all, but he was very good at carrying the puck out of trouble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott462 Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 I wouldn't say it's just the stat people that don't like this trade. Aside from a handful of posters, this is not a board heavy on analytics discussion yet the majority really didn't like this trade. Lots of people here that don't look at the advanced stats too much didn't like the move. I don't think it's fair to be entirely dismissive of the analytics. There is certainly merit to them to the point where they should be considered routinely in evaluating potential moves. Where I personally differ from some of the more extreme stat people is that it shouldn't be the only factor that's considered. There are off-ice elements that can't simply be measured that should be considered as well. You shouldn't just have one or the other though, both have their place. Ahhhhh the voice of reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illWill Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 I don't think it's fair to be entirely dismissive of the analytics. There is certainly merit to them to the point where they should be considered routinely in evaluating potential moves. Where I personally differ from some of the more extreme stat people is that it shouldn't be the only factor that's considered. There are off-ice elements that can't simply be measured that should be considered as well. You shouldn't just have one or the other though, both have their place. I compare it to poker. There are old school guys that have been playing by relying on reads and winning for years. And there are also new school players that win strictly by using math. Both strategies have merit and it's possible to win playing each way. The best players always find a way to win though. Throwing out numbers is a way to quantify occurrences over a period of time. Because one game or one series is only a microcosm of the big picture, you can't say for sure what is going to happen. But you can tell what has the best chance of happening.. Myself, I believe in a solid mix of analytic analysis and good ol' fashioned hockey sense. I analyze numbers for a living but also have played hockey since I can remember. There's a reason why "hockey guys" always talk about intangibles; it's because they are real. They aren't measurable like everything else but are definitely a part of the equation. Just like why "internet guys" always talk about analytics; because they paint a picture. You get a greater understanding of a situation based on the numbers. I was shocked at the trade, and still am. But I'm waiting to see the on-ice product before I go sour. I do think that Weber fits in wonderfully with this franchise and that PK does the same down in Smashville. It can be a win-win situation for sure. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott462 Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 Good post Will. I have said many times already that I don't consider PK better or worse than Shea. They are different D men with different skill sets but that's really you know... just my opinion man. In all seriousness everyone is entitled to their own opinions and I get the fact that a lot of posters here have lost their favorite player and it stings big time, so I can see a reluctance to come around to Weber or even give him a chance and management for making this deal. It's perfectly reasonable. I like PK too I'm just also a huge fan of Weber and consider him one of the best D in the NHL so it stings a little less I guess. I am just saying I understand where most are coming from but hope that when the season starts we can start filling up game threads with GO HABS GO! Chants and slogans of the sort. Enjoy the weekend fellas! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meller93 Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 Shut the site down, Habs are awful and aren't worthy of fans. Nothing to cheer for or any hope whatsoever. Price is an injury plagued bum, Galchenyuk is a party animal, Pacioretty can't lead, Gallagher is cool though, Shaw is an overpaid bigot, Radulov missed curfew years ago, Plekanec plays like a little girl wearing turtlenecks, Weber sucks all of the sudden, Markov can't skate, Emelin is as smart as a dumptruck, Desharnais only plays cause he is french, no prospects coming, Therrien couldn't coach Peewee, and Bergevin is obviously a moron disguised in nice clothes and hair. What shall we do with all our free time? Ironic that you're using hyperbole to complain about our hyperbolic complaining. Yes, following a trade many of us vehemently disagreed with complaints might have been exaggerated, however I'm surprised that a habs fan wouldn't be at least a little upset. Because I really disliked the Subban trade doesn't mean I disliked the other moves. Loved the radulov pick up, love sergachev, even Shaw I'm excited to see (although he's pricey). I'm excited to see what this team is capable of, I'm excited to see Weber. I'm not excited that Subban will no longer be a part of it. And I'm allowed to be have a few weeks of disappointment following one of the biggest trades in habs history that I believe we lost out on quite heavily when looking at the whole picture. As someone who will always be a habs fan, what I think the future of this deal will bring is why it hurts, and it's why I worry about how the team is being managed. When MB is no longe here, I still will be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 Ironic that you're using hyperbole to complain about our hyperbolic complaining. Yes, following a trade many of us vehemently disagreed with complaints might have been exaggerated, however I'm surprised that a habs fan wouldn't be at least a little upset. Well, is a ton of hypocritical hyperbolic complaints by many, not news. I guess count me in as one who also isn't 'upset' with deal and actually am more upbeat with Subban gone and looking forward to see what Weber can do next season. But, will interesting to see how bandwagon fills up again when team does well in the fall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovett's Magnatones Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 Shut the site down, Habs are awful and aren't worthy of fans. Nothing to cheer for or any hope whatsoever. Price is an injury plagued bum, Galchenyuk is a party animal, Pacioretty can't lead, Gallagher is cool though, Shaw is an overpaid bigot, Radulov missed curfew years ago, Plekanec plays like a little girl wearing turtlenecks, Weber sucks all of the sudden, Markov can't skate, Emelin is as smart as a dumptruck, Desharnais only plays cause he is french, no prospects coming, Therrien couldn't coach Peewee, and Bergevin is obviously a moron disguised in nice clothes and hair. What shall we do with all our free time? Man, these guys really suck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xXx..CK..xXx Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 Well, is a ton of hypocritical hyperbolic complaints by many, not news. I guess count me in as one who also isn't 'upset' with deal and actually am more upbeat with Subban gone and looking forward to see what Weber can do next season. But, will interesting to see how bandwagon fills up again when team does well in the fall. It won't matter if the team is better next year and then for the next 10 years after that because we still lost the trade yesterday. *tongue in cheek while stirring a pot* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meller93 Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 It won't matter if the team is better next year and then for the next 10 years after that because we still lost the trade yesterday. *tongue in cheek while stirring a pot* I know you're saying that sarcastically but an aspect of it is still true. You can lose a trade and put up a better record going forward. More factors make a team click. I'll go back to the hall for larsson trade as I have before. I fully expect the oilers to post a better record next season. They still lost. We're gaining Radulov and Price. Sure we'll do better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xXx..CK..xXx Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 I know you're saying that sarcastically but an aspect of it is still true. You can lose a trade and put up a better record going forward. More factors make a team click. I'll go back to the hall for larsson trade as I have before. I fully expect the oilers to post a better record next season. They still lost. We're gaining Radulov and Price. Sure we'll do better. The difference for me is that even when I take my red and blue glasses off I still see the Weber-Subban trade as a closer deal than the Hall-Larsson deal. Subban is overrated by some people. I'm not saying that all those who dislike the trade overrate Subban but because of his pure athleticism people are able to and decide to overlook certain defincicies in his game. I don't think anyone overrates Taylor Hall. He's up there with any of the Kanes and Parises of the league as far as I'm concerned. I cannot agree that our GM made a trade that is so concrete that we lost regardless of the outcome it holds in the future. If Weber's analytics continue to be worse than Subban while both players are in their new environment, I will agree we lost the better player. Even then the trade could still be a win-win for both organizations. Finally, if Weber sucks I will agree that we lost the trade regardless of how Subban does in Tennessee. PS: Don't forget Galchenyuk. (Not gaining but) He's going to rip it up this season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meller93 Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 The difference for me is that even when I take my red and blue glasses off I still see the Weber-Subban trade as a closer deal than the Hall-Larsson deal. Subban is overrated by some people. I'm not saying that all those who dislike the trade overrate Subban but because of his pure athleticism people are able to and decide to overlook certain defincicies in his game. I don't think anyone overrates Taylor Hall. He's up there with any of the Kanes and Parises of the league as far as I'm concerned. I cannot agree that our GM made a trade that is so concrete that we lost regardless of the outcome it holds in the future. If Weber's analytics continue to be worse than Subban while both players are in their new environment, I will agree we lost the better player. Even then the trade could still be a win-win for both organizations. Finally, if Weber sucks I will agree that we lost the trade regardless of how Subban does in Tennessee. PS: Don't forget Galchenyuk. (Not gaining but) He's going to rip it up this season. Oh I absolutely agree the Subban Weber deal is far better! I just used a more extreme example to try and illustrate my point. Just the whole asset value argument I made the other day in the Subban thread. I don't think the trade is ridiculously lopsided, and we did get an all star back. Just not a good return. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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