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The Chicoutimi Cucumber

I'll be reconsidering my fandom. And you?

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As soon as you said you don't mind the trade, you knew you would have crap heaped on you didn't you? Even minor criticism of Subban in the past was met with a ton of supporters freaking out in his defense.

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As soon as you said you don't mind the trade, you knew you would have crap heaped on you didn't you? Even minor criticism of Subban in the past was met with a ton of supporters freaking out in his defense.

It wasn't saying that he didn't mind the trade that angered me. It was the racial stuff. No need to go there.

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It wasn't saying that he didn't mind the trade that angered me. It was the racial stuff. No need to go there.

You have said you don't like the trade repeatedly haven't you?

Subban supprters have gone there numerous times already, calling Hockey Canada, Babcock, Yzerman, Pang, Therrien, Bergevin all racists at one point or other.

But, agree it is a very touchy subject, debate will lead to no good and makes me cringe a bit every time it is brought up.

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I imagine we'll see one at the scrimmage at the Bell Centre before the preseason, at least a couple of times in the preseason, opening night, and at times when Weber makes a mistake early on. As long as Weber plays up to his capabilities, I think he can win some of the more enraged fans over as the season goes on...as long as the team is winning of course. If Weber plays well but the team is still losing, it might get a little ugly.

I find it unfortunate that Weber will most probably be booed, just because he was involved in this trade. It's not like the guy asked to be trade. I hope the Bell Centre crowd is wise enough to realize this!

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Shea Weber is very similar athlete to Shane Doan. Doan is close to 40, probably older than Shea will be when his contract expires. He had about the same points (more goals) last season as he did in his 30 year old season. Still the captain (former Messier Award winner as well) and top goal scorer on the Coyotes. About to sign a NEW DEAL, and would be welcome on any team in the league if he was willing to move. My bet is that Weber lasts longer in Mtl and is more useful overall than Subban in Nashville, despite the age difference. You go a lot longer as an athlete relying on strength and intelligence than you do relying on speed and athleticism. In football terms Weber is more like an O lineman, Subban is like a running back. Linemen are effective 5 years longer on average.

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You go a lot longer as an athlete relying on strength and intelligence than you do relying on speed and athleticism.

Just keep digging that hole.

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I said consistently for years that if the Habs trade Subban without getting a monster return, I will reconsider my fandom.

Here we are.

Losing is one thing, making mistakes is one thing, but this is a TRANSPARENT and massive mistake that is more than just an error; it's a betrayal, because this move had nothing to do with hockey (it makes no sense in hockey terms) and everything to do with the egos of our idiot-assed coach and our worthless putz of a GM.

I don't know if I have the stomach to watch these mediocrities destroy my team AGAIN because of their egos. Lived through it with Blueberry.

Personally, I plan to take a week or two to think about whether I want to become a fan 'UFA' - possibly following Subban to Nashville, say. A team that actually wants to win.

Anyone else having the same thoughts?

I'm sympathetic but frankly surprised at your sentiments. I think we all love PK. What's not to love. But we're the Habs. Thick..thin... we're the Habs. We're history and an ongoing joy on ice. I don't have an informed opinion on what has happened; what was going on and what options were there. But how could we not love our PK.

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Yes agree T-Hab, CC is normally bang-on and rational (other than Eller dislike); but, seems he and some others are really taking one trade way too seriously and gone off deep end..

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Well, as I've said as this thread has unwound, I don't actually expect that I'll abandon the Habs per se (although adopting the Preds as 'second favourite' or co-favourite is a distinct possibility). But the realization that the current management group prioritizes its own egos over icing the best possible team - i.e., winning - has come as a huge shock, at least to me.

Over the whole Savard/Gainey era, I knew they made mistakes, but never doubted their desire to win. Gauthier was aberrant, but not here long enough for this reaction to crystallize. So this is new territory - like I say, Leafs territory. What will be hard to do going forward is to muster the optimism, the belief I used to have that the team I was pulling for was dedicated to winning the Cup. In short, I'm not moronic enough to simply forget about the betrayal that this trade represents.

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Yes agree T-Hab, CC is normally bang-on and rational (other than Eller dislike); but, seems he and some others are really taking one trade way too seriously and gone off deep end..

Actually, its not that PK was traded that has CC-- and many of us, including me--going through the five stages of grief mostly alternating between grief and despair( kudos to Norm for helping me identify what was happening). No. Most of the die hard fans that are taking this trade badly are questioning our fandom because the trade seems dumb. How could management not get more?! And if they couldn't get more then they felt compelled to take what they could get for PK. In that case, they weren't just shopping him, they were desperate to get rid of him.

Once again, if PK had brought back Weber and a top prospect we wouldn't be so devastated as our faith in management--a relatively new group, which we had high hopes for-- would not have been shattered. I was hoping that if they did trade PK the return would be a home-run for Montreal. As it turns out, MB couldn't even get Nashville to include a top young forward or a prospect. Given that our most desperate need is a top 6 forward this trade seems like a sideways move at best and given Weber's age, far more likely to turn out like the Chelios or Gomez deals :flaming:.

To summarize, we have not "gone off the deep end". On the contrary, we are bereft, because a manager we had faith in made a bad trade that has almost no hope of being a long-term win for our beloved Habs. :wall: From a manager who preaches patience and a long term plan it is a hard thing to swallow :1vomit: That's why CC is mulling over :surrender: As I have already posted, I can't seem to break my own addiction to this team so I will continue to hope that everyone who thinks that Nashville got a steal on this trade is wrong and that Bergevin is a genius. However, only a Cup will make me feel better about this trade. . :1gohabs:

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Actually, its not that PK was traded that has CC-- and many of us, including me--going through the five stages of grief mostly alternating between grief and despair( kudos to Norm for helping me identify what was happening). No. Most of the die hard fans that are taking this trade badly are questioning our fandom because the trade seems dumb. How could management not get more?! And if they couldn't get more then they felt compelled to take what they could get for PK. In that case, they weren't just shopping him, they were desperate to get rid of him.

Once again, if PK had brought back Weber and a top prospect we wouldn't be so devastated as our faith in management--a relatively new group, which we had high hopes for-- would not have been shattered. I was hoping that if they did trade PK the return would be a home-run for Montreal. As it turns out, MB couldn't even get Nashville to include a top young forward or a prospect. Given that our most desperate need is a top 6 forward this trade seems like a sideways move at best and given Weber's age, far more likely to turn out like the Chelios or Gomez deals :flaming:.

To summarize, we have not "gone off the deep end". On the contrary, we are bereft, because a manager we had faith in made a bad trade that has almost no hope of being a long-term win for our beloved Habs. :wall: From a manager who preaches patience and a long term plan it is a hard thing to swallow :1vomit: That's why CC is mulling over :surrender: As I have already posted, I can't seem to break my own addiction to this team so I will continue to hope that everyone who thinks that Nashville got a steal on this trade is wrong and that Bergevin is a genius. However, only a Cup will make me feel better about this trade. . :1gohabs:

Wow, what a fantastic post. You've said it better than I could have. Nicely done. :thumbs_up:

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The PK trade isn't much different than the Harrold Ballard Lanny McDonald, Darryl settler, Mike palmateer, Dave Keon purges. . Are in Harrold ballard leads territory.

Well, as I've said as this thread has unwound, I don't actually expect that I'll abandon the Habs per se (although adopting the Preds as 'second favourite' or co-favourite is a distinct possibility). But the realization that the current management group prioritizes its own egos over icing the best possible team - i.e., winning - has come as a huge shock, at least to me.

Over the whole Savard/Gainey era, I knew they made mistakes, but never doubted their desire to win. Gauthier was aberrant, but not here long enough for this reaction to crystallize. So this is new territory - like I say, Leafs territory. What will be hard to do going forward is to muster the optimism, the belief I used to have that the team I was pulling for was dedicated to winning the Cup. In short, I'm not moronic enough to simply forget about the betrayal that this trade represents.

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This deal has the making of another Chelios-savard disaster. Weber's play dropped significantly) after losing Suter his partner - in the first yea after losing Suter. Most analysts had expected a decline from Suter after leaving Nashville, but it was Weber who suffered. Next year we'll find out just how much of a decline there is I Weber - I'm expecting a decline next year and a substantial fall off the following year with at most 3 years of Weber being an elite level dman.

Actually, its not that PK was traded that has CC-- and many of us, including me--going through the five stages of grief mostly alternating between grief and despair( kudos to Norm for helping me identify what was happening). No. Most of the die hard fans that are taking this trade badly are questioning our fandom because the trade seems dumb. How could management not get more?! And if they couldn't get more then they felt compelled to take what they could get for PK. In that case, they weren't just shopping him, they were desperate to get rid of him.

Once again, if PK had brought back Weber and a top prospect we wouldn't be so devastated as our faith in management--a relatively new group, which we had high hopes for-- would not have been shattered. I was hoping that if they did trade PK the return would be a home-run for Montreal. As it turns out, MB couldn't even get Nashville to include a top young forward or a prospect. Given that our most desperate need is a top 6 forward this trade seems like a sideways move at best and given Weber's age, far more likely to turn out like the Chelios or Gomez deals :flaming:.

To summarize, we have not "gone off the deep end". On the contrary, we are bereft, because a manager we had faith in made a bad trade that has almost no hope of being a long-term win for our beloved Habs. :wall: From a manager who preaches patience and a long term plan it is a hard thing to swallow :1vomit: That's why CC is mulling over :surrender: As I have already posted, I can't seem to break my own addiction to this team so I will continue to hope that everyone who thinks that Nashville got a steal on this trade is wrong and that Bergevin is a genius. However, only a Cup will make me feel better about this trade. . :1gohabs:

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Actually, its not that PK was traded that has CC-- and many of us, including me--going through the five stages of grief mostly alternating between grief and despair( kudos to Norm for helping me identify what was happening). No. Most of the die hard fans that are taking this trade badly are questioning our fandom because the trade seems dumb. How could management not get more?! And if they couldn't get more then they felt compelled to take what they could get for PK. In that case, they weren't just shopping him, they were desperate to get rid of him.

Once again, if PK had brought back Weber and a top prospect we wouldn't be so devastated as our faith in management--a relatively new group, which we had high hopes for-- would not have been shattered. I was hoping that if they did trade PK the return would be a home-run for Montreal. As it turns out, MB couldn't even get Nashville to include a top young forward or a prospect. Given that our most desperate need is a top 6 forward this trade seems like a sideways move at best and given Weber's age, far more likely to turn out like the Chelios or Gomez deals :flaming:.

To summarize, we have not "gone off the deep end". On the contrary, we are bereft, because a manager we had faith in made a bad trade that has almost no hope of being a long-term win for our beloved Habs. :wall: From a manager who preaches patience and a long term plan it is a hard thing to swallow :1vomit: That's why CC is mulling over :surrender: As I have already posted, I can't seem to break my own addiction to this team so I will continue to hope that everyone who thinks that Nashville got a steal on this trade is wrong and that Bergevin is a genius. However, only a Cup will make me feel better about this trade. . :1gohabs:

You do realize you are seeing Subban's worth through Hab coloured-glasses. 5 stages of grief eh...still sounds kooky to me but know what you are saying, just pretty much totally disagree.

Sweet Jesus, how long have vast majority of HabFans been begging for big trade? And 99.9% of proposals involved Emelin, Desharnais, Eller or whoever was most hated player of the week; but I always said a big trade will not be painless and given that Habs have dick-all of quality to trade, it might cost a Gallagher, Beaulieu, to which I was shouted down that we cant trade any core (popular) player, but we still need Bergevin to pull the trigger on a big deal. So Bergevin has put "his stamp" on the team, good-bad or horrible move we shall see.

But, "betrayal" and words like that I just don't get...you mean Bergevin went out of his way to make the team worse, on purpose?

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You do realize you are seeing Subban's worth through Hab coloured-glasses. 5 stages of grief eh...still sounds kooky to me but know what you are saying, just pretty much totally disagree.

Sweet Jesus, how long have vast majority of HabFans been begging for big trade? And 99.9% of proposals involved Emelin, Desharnais, Eller or whoever was most hated player of the week; but I always said a big trade will not be painless and given that Habs have dick-all of quality to trade, it might cost a Gallagher, Beaulieu, to which I was shouted down that we cant trade any core (popular) player, but we still need Bergevin to pull the trigger on a big deal. So Bergevin has put "his stamp" on the team, good-bad or horrible move we shall see.

But, "betrayal" and words like that I just don't get...you mean Bergevin went out of his way to make the team worse, on purpose?

He traded Subban for reasons that had nothing to do with hockey. And because he didn't get full value back - a point on which nearly every observer, Habs-fan or otherwise, is in agreement - he made the team worse by doing it.

I for one never demanded that Bergevin make a "big move" just for the sake of it; in fact I critiqued that view as idiotic. Any big move had to be done to improve this team. This didn't.

Did he sit down and say, "how can I worsen the team?" Of course not. Did he sit down and say, "this Subban rubs me and Dumb the wrong way, how can I get rid of him while saving face?" Well, there is no rational explanation for this trade. So some such irrational consideration is all that's left.

"Betrayal" is not too strong, because we trusted him to try to make the team better. He did not do that, because he prioritized his ego and that of his foxhole chimpanzee over his duty to ice the best team he possibly could. Making irresponsible decisions for reasons having nothing to do with hockey IS what betrayal means, in terms of the fan-team relationship. Habs29 is spot-on with the Ballard parallels.

Anyhow, PMAC has basically said all l'd wish to say, so I'll let that post stand on its own merits.

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He traded Subban for reasons that had nothing to do with hockey. And because he didn't get full value back - a point on which nearly every observer, Habs-fan or otherwise, is in agreement - he made the team worse by doing it.

I for one never demanded that Bergevin make a "big move" just for the sake of it; in fact I critiqued that view as idiotic. Any big move had to be done to improve this team. This didn't.

Did he sit down and say, "how can I worsen the team?" Of course not. Did he sit down and say, "this Subban rubs me and Dumb the wrong way, how can I get rid of him while saving face?" Well, there is no rational explanation for this trade. So some such irrational consideration is all that's left.

"Betrayal" is not too strong, because we trusted him to try to make the team better. He did not do that, because he prioritized his ego and that of his chimpanzee of a coach over his duty to ice the best team he possibly could. Making irresponsible decisions for reasons having nothing to do with hockey IS what betrayal means, in terms of the fan-team relationship. Habs29 is spot-on with the Ballard parallels.

Anyhow, PMAC has basically said all l'd wish to say, so I'll let that post stand on its own merits.

You lost me after that 1st sentence, which is just preposterous, unless team success or winning championships arnt part of hockey?

Anyways, wont see eye to eye on this and I wont argue more, on this thread anyways. Yes PMAC's post was a good one but :surrender:

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Keep hearing that management discussed with the players at the end of the 2016 season "what happened" and players said PK was becoming a distraction in the room and instead of waiting for it to snowball into an even bigger problem in 2017 and beyond, MB was up against the gun to trade Subban before July 1st. Thing is, not many teams can afford the $9M salary and teams weren't offering anything mind-blowing. It wasn't until Shea Weber's name got suggested by NSH that MB again tried to see if he could get a better offer but didn't, and then made the trade. MB was pushing hard for a deal with EDM for Draisaitl, Klefbom and the 4th pick (which they would've taken Dubois) but that fell through when CLB took Dubois.

This isn't Therrien vs. PK - the room was simply sick of him and with Muller coming in, I bet the players came forward even more to Kirk about how the locker room was slowly becoming a distraction. I've read a lot on here over the past 5 days about how this is Therrien's fault, the Habs are racist, and MB is an idiot/lier but I think the truth is, the Montreal Canadien players wanted a change and pushed management to deal PK. And by players I mean Pacioretty, Price, Plekanec and Gallagher.

I, for one, think the addition of Weber makes the Canadiens a better 'team'. I hope this translates to a Stanley Cup over the next 3 years and I think the additions of Radulov and Shaw are great as well. Anyways, I'll miss PK but I'm still bleu-blanc-rouge for life.

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Well I dnk why the idiot traded PK but after Galchenyuk's remarks we can rule out locker room cancer. Which leaves us with the A$$hole known as Le genius. They couldn't get along so rather than fire the inept coach get rid of the superstar. Pretty sad really.

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Well I dnk why the idiot traded PK but after Galchenyuk's remarks we can rule out locker room cancer. Which leaves us with the A$$hole known as Le genius. They couldn't get along so rather than fire the inept coach get rid of the superstar. Pretty sad really.

To be fair, does anyone really expect any Hab to bad mouth Subban even if (and I'm emphasizing if) he was a bad teammate or major annoyance? Of course not. That just opens themselves up to a ton of criticism and scrutiny and I'm sure the organization would frown on it as well.

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HabsWorld Poll #s, not as lopsided as I expected.

35% hate deal

23% don't like it

23% like it

8% Love it.

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To be fair, does anyone really expect any Hab to bad mouth Subban even if (and I'm emphasizing if) he was a bad teammate or major annoyance? Of course not. That just opens themselves up to a ton of criticism and scrutiny and I'm sure the organization would frown on it as well.

Have you read the interview? It is not that he simply did not bad mouth him, he called him one of his best friends and a guy who motivated him through his play. He said he was a great team mate.

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Well, as I've said as this thread has unwound, I don't actually expect that I'll abandon the Habs per se (although adopting the Preds as 'second favourite' or co-favourite is a distinct possibility). But the realization that the current management group prioritizes its own egos over icing the best possible team - i.e., winning - has come as a huge shock, at least to me.

Over the whole Savard/Gainey era, I knew they made mistakes, but never doubted their desire to win. Gauthier was aberrant, but not here long enough for this reaction to crystallize. So this is new territory - like I say, Leafs territory. What will be hard to do going forward is to muster the optimism, the belief I used to have that the team I was pulling for was dedicated to winning the Cup. In short, I'm not moronic enough to simply forget about the betrayal that this trade represents.

To use your analogy, it seems your reaction to being cheated on is to cheat on them yourself. If that's how you handle things then by all means...

The players on the ice, who wear the jersey, aren't the ones who cheated on and betrayed you, if that's how you feel. Management was. Personally, I'm neutral when it comes to our coach and manager which is more than they deserve at this point... Not a fan of some of Bergevin's decisions. My perspective of them doesn't make me want the Habs to win any less though.

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To be fair, does anyone really expect any Hab to bad mouth Subban even if (and I'm emphasizing if) he was a bad teammate or major annoyance? Of course not. That just opens themselves up to a ton of criticism and scrutiny and I'm sure the organization would frown on it as well.

In case you missed it, and I find that hard to believe, cause you don't miss anything, here is the link again http://www2.tsn.ca/bardown/Story.aspx?Alex+Galchenyuk+shares+his+feelings+about+the+PK+Subban+trade&id=583890

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Exactly what opportunity was there for the "players" to go to Muller about subban being a distraction??? You are really grasping at straws and offering arguments that are without any factual basis or merit. Muller was also very complimentary about subban after being hired.

This is on MB and Mt. Diddle dee, and diddle dumb. This is actually worse than the Taylor hall trade. At least Larsson still has an upside. Weber has clearly already started his decline, while subban is already better than Weber and still has much greater upside.

This is the kind of trades Ronald Corey pushed on his GM's and led the Habs into the dark years resembling the Ballard leafs. We're on that same path now. Milbury has gotten completion now for the worst gm ever in chiarelli and potentially MB. Last year the team collapsed because they saw their useless GM sit on his ass while the team collapsed and he couldn't even supply them with an NHL caliber goaltender. He had a coaching staff that still had their team keep playing like Carey Price was in net. Now the narrative that MB and his blind flock is selling is this crap that Subban was the cancer that was the reason for the collapse last year. Of course it had nothing to do with MB not getting a goalie, or MT playing Markov like he was a 28 year old, or the coaching staff that couldn't put together a PP that would have even worked in the AHL, or MT refusing to play galchenyuk with frontline players or even 3rd line ice time until his little bum buddy DD got hurt, or that the Habs were playing a lineup that consisted largely of AHLers. Nope, subban was the reason for the collapse last year.

If the Habs made a GOOD hockey trade and got good value for Subban, I wouldn't be up in arms. The fact that they got a close to being washed up Weber who hasn't been the same defender since Suter left has me upset. The fact that Weber's PP totals are inflated the same way Souray's were with Markov has me upset. No, weber is not Souray. He is a hell of a lot better than Souray ever was, but than Souray was a pylon with a great shot. Weber now is an above average dman with a cannon that plays on a stacked D core. He is on team canada based on reputation - which is generally how most team canada teams have been picked historically. I wouldn't consider him even in the top 10 in the league any more. There is a reason why EVERY friggin analyst is calling this deal a steal for Nashville. Some of the old boys old gaurd are saying short term, Montreal wins, but the stats, and the way the game is played don't support their arguments. The most effective dmen in this years playoffs, play like subban - letang and burns. Weber was exposed against the Sharks.

We lost the trade. It wasn't a deal that had to be made. We have price returning, have muller to mitigate the lousy decision making of le Idiot and picked up one of the two top 6 players we needed. That alone should get us in the playoffs. However in the playoffs, I'd much rather have subban than Weber. Fact, Subban has OUTPERFORMED Weber in the playoffs. Fact playing 10 less games, on a much worse team, with weaker defensive pairings, subban had the same number of points as Weber and outperformed Weber as a DEFENSIVE dman.

Keep hearing that management discussed with the players at the end of the 2016 season "what happened" and players said PK was becoming a distraction in the room and instead of waiting for it to snowball into an even bigger problem in 2017 and beyond, MB was up against the gun to trade Subban before July 1st. Thing is, not many teams can afford the $9M salary and teams weren't offering anything mind-blowing. It wasn't until Shea Weber's name got suggested by NSH that MB again tried to see if he could get a better offer but didn't, and then made the trade. MB was pushing hard for a deal with EDM for Draisaitl, Klefbom and the 4th pick (which they would've taken Dubois) but that fell through when CLB took Dubois.

This isn't Therrien vs. PK - the room was simply sick of him and with Muller coming in, I bet the players came forward even more to Kirk about how the locker room was slowly becoming a distraction. I've read a lot on here over the past 5 days about how this is Therrien's fault, the Habs are racist, and MB is an idiot/lier but I think the truth is, the Montreal Canadien players wanted a change and pushed management to deal PK. And by players I mean Pacioretty, Price, Plekanec and Gallagher.

I, for one, think the addition of Weber makes the Canadiens a better 'team'. I hope this translates to a Stanley Cup over the next 3 years and I think the additions of Radulov and Shaw are great as well. Anyways, I'll miss PK but I'm still bleu-blanc-rouge for life.

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HabsWorld Poll #s, not as lopsided as I expected.

35% hate deal

23% don't like it

23% like it

8% Love it.

It was much more slanted towards hating the deal in the first couple of days.

In case you missed it, and I find that hard to believe, cause you don't miss anything, here is the link again http://www2.tsn.ca/bardown/Story.aspx?Alex+Galchenyuk+shares+his+feelings+about+the+PK+Subban+trade&id=583890

I had seen it a couple of days ago. I have my doubts that all the players feel that way but again, if there are those who don't, I highly doubt we'll find out any time soon as saying so creates another issue in itself. The only public commentary about Subban from players will be positive for that very reason and thus, I don't think seeing comments like this (or Weise's) automatically rule out any potential negativity in the room. You're probably only going to see one side from the players, regardless of what they actually may think.

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