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The Chicoutimi Cucumber

I'll be reconsidering my fandom. And you?

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Guest Stogey24

There were players around the league welcoming him to the west

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Have you seen the YouTube videos of subban and Gallagher? The essential core going forward would have been price, subban, maxpac, Gallagher, galchenyuk and petry. The only one we are unsure about the relationship is Maxpac. Everyone else has been very positive about subban. Petry had said subban was one of the reasons he reigned its Montreal.

It was much more slanted towards hating the deal in the first couple of days.

I had seen it a couple of days ago. I have my doubts that all the players feel that way but again, if there are those who don't, I highly doubt we'll find out any time soon as saying so creates another issue in itself. The only public commentary about Subban from players will be positive for that very reason and thus, I don't think seeing comments like this (or Weise's) automatically rule out any potential negativity in the room. You're probably only going to see one side from the players, regardless of what they actually may think.

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He traded Subban for reasons that had nothing to do with hockey.

This is something I disagree with. I think that with PK they have always tried to mold him into what they wanted him to be on the team from day 1. We've all talked about "reigning him in" and "letting him loose" for years now. Montreal has always wanted him to play within the system, and to his credit, I think he has done a terrific job doing his best to please his team and management. However, a player like PK can only do that so much. He has so much talent and it's apparent to the average fan that they should just let him do his thing. Personally I love watching him create plays all by himself, it's what the best players do. But I thought it was very easy to see that most of the time his teammates didn't know what to do while he was Subby-dooing around the ice. That's because everyone else on the team has strict instructions and keep to it, PK is more of a freelancer. He has the ability to pull it off, but it would be frustrating as a teammate/coach to have that structure dissembled. Take a moment and think of all the times you've watched him go from behind his own net up the ice dancing around guys, but then is out of sync with the rest of the team, so he either dumps it in, loses it, or goes offside. In my opinion, it is mostly for hockey reasons.

It was much more slanted towards hating the deal in the first couple of days.

Talking to all the Habs fans I know IRL it shares a similar pattern, including myself. I was outraged at first but am now coming to terms with it.

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It was much more slanted towards hating the deal in the first couple of days.

I had seen it a couple of days ago. I have my doubts that all the players feel that way but again, if there are those who don't, I highly doubt we'll find out any time soon as saying so creates another issue in itself. The only public commentary about Subban from players will be positive for that very reason and thus, I don't think seeing comments like this (or Weise's) automatically rule out any potential negativity in the room. You're probably only going to see one side from the players, regardless of what they actually may think.

I know what you mean and I agree with it it but Galchenyuk was a pretty ringing endorsement of PK. On the other hand when PK was asked he made a comment about wanting to come to arena and feel comfortable and appreciated, which indicates to me there was a problem but most likely with Le Genius more than with the players. Let's face it Le Genius did not like him before he was the coach I doubt he grew any fonder. It is too bad MB did not kick his buddy out of foxhole on his fat a$$, I think PK would still be here.

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It's a good hockey deal for the Habs, quite apart from personalities involved. No G.M. or coach looks more than 5 years down the road in terms of a deal. That's a lifetime in professional sports. Good chance at least one of the principals will have moved on again in that time frame, and if the execs focus on longer term they probably won't be around to find out the results in any case. Whether you view Subban as refreshing or a shallow poser is inconsequential. Shea Weber makes the team better now, and for the next 5 years at least. His effectiveness does not depend on pure athleticism to nearly the same extent as Subban's does, so I don't think it's likely the Habs lose in the long term either. Being popular off the ice is of no consequence on the ice, it doesn't win games for the team or job security for management. It's probably a lot more useful in Nashville which struggles for support and attention in a market dominated by the NFL, with hockey trailing a few other sports locally in terms of popularity and media coverage. But the Montreal Canadiens do not have to worry about ticket sales or media attention. They have to worry only about winning and reviving a tradition. Marc Bergevin made some good moves in that direction over the past 10 days or whatever.

Edited by ethan raphael
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It's a good hockey deal for the Habs, quite apart from personalities involved. No G.M. or coach looks more than 5 years down the road in terms of a deal. That's a lifetime in professional sports. Good chance at least one of the principals will have moved on again in that time frame, and if the execs focus on longer term they probably won't be around to find out the results in any case. Whether you view Subban as refreshing or a shallow poser is inconsequential. Shea Weber makes the team better now, and for the next 5 years at least. His effectiveness does not depend on pure athleticism to nearly the same extent as Subban's does, so I don't think it's likely the Habs lose in the long term either. Being popular off the ice is of no consequence on the ice, it doesn't win games for the team or job security for management. It's probably a lot more useful in Nashville which struggles for support and attention in a market dominated by the NFL, with hockey trailing a few other sports locally in terms of popularity and media coverage. But the Montreal Canadiens do not have to worry about ticket sales or media attention. They have to worry only about winning and reviving a tradition. Marc Bergevin made some good moves in that direction over the past 10 days or whatever.

Right now saying Weber makes the team better is nothing more than an opinion. We have to wait for that. And considering last seasons injury disaster I think the team is only better if we improve on our past three years or so.

As it stands, all we have to work with are statistics. And for gods sake don't say statistics don't matter; statistic are REAL, they have meaning. Saying otherwise is like a smoker saying "smoking doesn't lead to cancer!" Sure, it doesn't always but trends lead to a result in the long run. Subban's statistic suggest that he will be a much better defenseman on the ice going forward.

Of the ice, was Subban a distraction? Maybe. Did some teammates or management dislike him? Probably.

But it's also speculation that Weber will be better in the room. The team might miss Subban's energy even though I believe Weber will be a great leader.

My point is, its pointless to assert the team is better with Weber until we see the results, and statistically speaking, we lost the better defenseman.

That's why it hurt to me. Asset management. Let's say Weber and Subban are equal talents for arguments sake. You don't trade away a younger defenseman on a similar (better) contract for a 3-years-older defenseman. You just lose out.

This thread is about losing your fandom, and no, I will never lose mine. That's why I can't take a GM trading losing assets and looking no further than 5 years. Cause I'll still be here. So I'll keep my fingers crossed that your words prove right and Weber makes the team better for the next 3-4 years at the very least.

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The fact of the matter is that Smooth skating defencemen age much better than physical defencemen who make a lot of hits and block a lot of shots. Just look at the history of the last twenty years. The idea that Weber will age better because his game relies on physicality and not skating... pure myth, pure fairytales and rainbows. There is zero evidence to this.

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It's a good hockey deal for the Habs, quite apart from personalities involved. No G.M. or coach looks more than 5 years down the road in terms of a deal. That's a lifetime in professional sports. Good chance at least one of the principals will have moved on again in that time frame, and if the execs focus on longer term they probably won't be around to find out the results in any case. Whether you view Subban as refreshing or a shallow poser is inconsequential. Shea Weber makes the team better now, and for the next 5 years at least. His effectiveness does not depend on pure athleticism to nearly the same extent as Subban's does, so I don't think it's likely the Habs lose in the long term either. Being popular off the ice is of no consequence on the ice, it doesn't win games for the team or job security for management. It's probably a lot more useful in Nashville which struggles for support and attention in a market dominated by the NFL, with hockey trailing a few other sports locally in terms of popularity and media coverage. But the Montreal Canadiens do not have to worry about ticket sales or media attention. They have to worry only about winning and reviving a tradition. Marc Bergevin made some good moves in that direction over the past 10 days or whatever.

If I thought it was a good hockey deal, I would be dancing in the streets. I don't for all the reasons I have already stated. 'Nuff said as far as I am concerned

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The fact of the matter is that Smooth skating defencemen age much better than physical defencemen who make a lot of hits and block a lot of shots. Just look at the history of the last twenty years. The idea that Weber will age better because his game relies on physicality and not skating... pure myth, pure fairytales and rainbows. There is zero evidence to this.

I saw a unicorn once...they called it Rob Blake. :popcorn:

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This is something I disagree with. I think that with PK they have always tried to mold him into what they wanted him to be on the team from day 1. We've all talked about "reigning him in" and "letting him loose" for years now. Montreal has always wanted him to play within the system, and to his credit, I think he has done a terrific job doing his best to please his team and management. However, a player like PK can only do that so much. He has so much talent and it's apparent to the average fan that they should just let him do his thing. Personally I love watching him create plays all by himself, it's what the best players do. But I thought it was very easy to see that most of the time his teammates didn't know what to do while he was Subby-dooing around the ice. That's because everyone else on the team has strict instructions and keep to it, PK is more of a freelancer. He has the ability to pull it off, but it would be frustrating as a teammate/coach to have that structure dissembled. Take a moment and think of all the times you've watched him go from behind his own net up the ice dancing around guys, but then is out of sync with the rest of the team, so he either dumps it in, loses it, or goes offside. In my opinion, it is mostly for hockey reasons.

Talking to all the Habs fans I know IRL it shares a similar pattern, including myself. I was outraged at first but am now coming to terms with it.

I hear what you're saying, but it basically amounts to confirming that we traded Subban to please Therrien and his 'system.' Since Therrien is an average and forgettable coach, while Subban is a top player of his generation, this is an idiotic trade-off. And even if your description holds water, it asks us to believe that Subban was a liability in hockey terms. But this 'liability,' even (supposedly) way out of sync with his teammates, gave us better on-ice performance to Weber in nearly ever aspect of the game, including the defensive aspect, and even in an 'off' season. If that's a 'problem' we need 20 more like it. (Incidentally, Guy Lafleur was another guy who couldn't follow systems - he was famous for causing drills to collapse in practices - and who needed linemates like Shutt and Lafleur who could respond to what Shutt called his 'instinct' plays. I guess Lafleur couldn't play for Dumb either. We'd have to trade him for Terry O'Reilly, 'hockey reasons').

And to those who cite 'personality issues,' I come back again to the fact that the year before last we were universally hailed for having the best room in the NHL. I'm pretty sure Subban did not have a personality transplant in the summer of 2015. What did happen, though, was that he went 'off the reservation' and made a $10 million donation to a hospital in his own name without getting permission from the Habs. And then Price got hurt, leading to losing, leading (probably) to conflict. The latter is temporary. The resentments of MB and MT, however, were what really counted. So, again: their egos. Leading to a worse hockey team.

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I saw a unicorn once...they called it Rob Blake. :popcorn:

One example does not a trend make.

Lidstrom, Rafalski, Boyle, Campbell, Markov, Gonchar, Kaberle, Niedermayer, Coffey, Zubov, Leetch,

etc... etc...

They all lasted until their late 30s (and sometimes 40s) before falling off....

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I saw a unicorn once...they called it Rob Blake. :popcorn:

I saw a 3 pack a day smoker once, he didn't have lung cancer. What's your point? There are anomalies. Maybe Weber will be one. The point is smooth staking defencemen tend to have more longevity.

Oh you beat me to it commandent

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That's why it hurt to me. Asset management. Let's say Weber and Subban are equal talents for arguments sake. You don't trade away a younger defenseman on a similar (better) contract for a 3-years-older defenseman. You just lose out.

I'll add a point of view that is different on the contract issue. Weber is locked in at 7.8 million for ten years. Subban is at 9 million for 6 more. When that contract is up, assuming he is still a top end defenseman will likely get a raise. So the cap hit over the length of Weber's contract will actually have more separation than the 1.2 million there is now between them. And because alot of the real money on Weber's contract has already been paid, that carries value in it as well. You can argue one way or another who will be better in 6 years but I don't think we inherited that terrible of a contract when you compare it over the entire length.

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I'll add a point of view that is different on the contract issue. Weber is locked in at 7.8 million for ten years. Subban is at 9 million for 6 more. When that contract is up, assuming he is still a top end defenseman will likely get a raise. So the cap hit over the length of Weber's contract will actually have more separation than the 1.2 million there is now between them. And because alot of the real money on Weber's contract has already been paid, that carries value in it as well. You can argue one way or another who will be better in 6 years but I don't think we inherited that terrible of a contract when you compare it over the entire length.

Only if we assume that Weber is still worth a 7.8 million cap hit in year 5, 6, 7, 8, etc...

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Weber will probably be done or worth $3m in 6 years. Campbell just signed for less than that in chicago.

I'll add a point of view that is different on the contract issue. Weber is locked in at 7.8 million for ten years. Subban is at 9 million for 6 more. When that contract is up, assuming he is still a top end defenseman will likely get a raise. So the cap hit over the length of Weber's contract will actually have more separation than the 1.2 million there is now between them. And because alot of the real money on Weber's contract has already been paid, that carries value in it as well. You can argue one way or another who will be better in 6 years but I don't think we inherited that terrible of a contract when you compare it over the entire length.

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Guest Stogey24

Only if we assume that Weber is still worth a 7.8 million cap hit in year 5, 6, 7, 8, etc...

Grey Weber on year 8.

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Only if we assume that Weber is still worth a 7.8 million cap hit in year 5, 6, 7, 8, etc...

As the cap rises, the percentage of his cap hit towards the team decreases. No way of knowing how good he will be that far down the road, but it's guaranteed that he will take up less cap space in the future than he does now. Whereas a new Subban deal will be related to the new inflated cap number.

Weber will probably be done or worth $3m in 6 years. Campbell just signed for less than that in chicago.

You're comparing Brian Campbell's deal he signed in 2016 to Shea Weber in 2022. One is a better player than the other and inflation is a real thing.

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As the cap rises, the percentage of his cap hit towards the team decreases. No way of knowing how good he will be that far down the road, but it's guaranteed that he will take up less cap space in the future than he does now. Whereas a new Subban deal will be related to the new inflated cap number.

You're comparing Brian Campbell's deal he signed in 2016 to Shea Weber in 2022. One is a better player than the other and inflation is a real thing.

The new Subban deal also hasn't happened yet, so we can't speak on it. Subban will be 34 I believe? I believe he could get 6 years but also a pay cut if he gets term. We'll see.

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As the cap rises, the percentage of his cap hit towards the team decreases. No way of knowing how good he will be that far down the road, but it's guaranteed that he will take up less cap space in the future than he does now. Whereas a new Subban deal will be related to the new inflated cap number.

You're comparing Brian Campbell's deal he signed in 2016 to Shea Weber in 2022. One is a better player than the other and inflation is a real thing.

Yes, the cap will rise, and yes it will be a lower percentage.

7.8 will still be a significant number though.

Remains to be seen how significant, but it certainly won't be chump change.

What we are seeing more and more in the NHL is that the Elite guys are paid well and continue to go up, the middle class is not gaining in value at the same rate, and the low end guys are still making the same 700k-1.5 million as ever.... So if he becomes a 2nd pairing D man (or worse a third pair) it will be an overpayment. 6 years is a long time, and D who hit a lot, and aren't that quick, typically haven't aged well in the NHL. (with some exceptions)

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Right now saying Weber makes the team better is nothing more than an opinion. We have to wait for that. And considering last seasons injury disaster I think the team is only better if we improve on our past three years or so.

As it stands, all we have to work with are statistics. And for gods sake don't say statistics don't matter; statistic are REAL, they have meaning. Saying otherwise is like a smoker saying "smoking doesn't lead to cancer!" Sure, it doesn't always but trends lead to a result in the long run. Subban's statistic suggest that he will be a much better defenseman on the ice going forward.

Of the ice, was Subban a distraction? Maybe. Did some teammates or management dislike him? Probably.

But it's also speculation that Weber will be better in the room. The team might miss Subban's energy even though I believe Weber will be a great leader.

My point is, its pointless to assert the team is better with Weber until we see the results, and statistically speaking, we lost the better defenseman.

That's why it hurt to me. Asset management. Let's say Weber and Subban are equal talents for arguments sake. You don't trade away a younger defenseman on a similar (better) contract for a 3-years-older defenseman. You just lose out.

This thread is about losing your fandom, and no, I will never lose mine. That's why I can't take a GM trading losing assets and looking no further than 5 years. Cause I'll still be here. So I'll keep my fingers crossed that your words prove right and Weber makes the team better for the next 3-4 years at the very least.

hear hear

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Just a huge PK Subban fan over here trying to come to grips with the trade. Looking and thinking about any positives that may come from all of this. I got a chance to meet him at a Special Olympics fundraiser. I'm not the type to bother people but after some liquid courage I asked him for a pic. Would have been better if not for the photobomber in the back

1003891_10151693868196007_1108195271_n.j

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Weber may not even be paying in 2022 and a broken down Weber that is likely a a middle or bottom pairing dman will be overpaid at $7.8m - even in 2022.

The league is moving more and more towards being younger and older players are getting paid less - Jagr being an exception.

As the cap rises, the percentage of his cap hit towards the team decreases. No way of knowing how good he will be that far down the road, but it's guaranteed that he will take up less cap space in the future than he does now. Whereas a new Subban deal will be related to the new inflated cap number.

You're comparing Brian Campbell's deal he signed in 2016 to Shea Weber in 2022. One is a better player than the other and inflation is a real thing.

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Just a huge PK Subban fan over here trying to come to grips with the trade. Looking and thinking about any positives that may come from all of this. I got a chance to meet him at a Special Olympics fundraiser. I'm not the type to bother people but after some liquid courage I asked him for a pic. Would have been better if not for the photobomber in the back

1003891_10151693868196007_1108195271_n.j

You are a lucky man

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Just a huge PK Subban fan over here trying to come to grips with the trade. Looking and thinking about any positives that may come from all of this. I got a chance to meet him at a Special Olympics fundraiser. I'm not the type to bother people but after some liquid courage I asked him for a pic. Would have been better if not for the photobomber in the back

And I'm glad you're trying to be optimistic, you're right we do need some of that. For sure, I'm looking forward to seeing Weber in a habs jersey; that's something I never ever ever ever thought I'd see!

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And I'm glad you're trying to be optimistic, you're right we do need some of that. For sure, I'm looking forward to seeing Weber in a habs jersey; that's something I never ever ever ever thought I'd see!

You will get to see him in a Team Canada jersey first.

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