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The Chicoutimi Cucumber

I'll be reconsidering my fandom. And you?

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Guest Stogey24

The trade was a slap in the face to the fan base.

I know GM's can't think like a fan, but this one really stung alot of people

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Don't we think that every year and yet it seems they struggle out there each and every season? At least the trip is much earlier this time around, maybe that will help.

Yes, they sure do have a tough time out here year in and year out. I thought the same thing about the schedule change this year as well so we will have to wait and see if it changes anything.

I can understand that people are upset as I've never felt worse after a trade than this one. I can even understand those who won't give Molson their money. But to stop watching the Habs altogether or not to attend an away game in a foreign city seems a little extreme to me. People have not actually seen the product on the ice yet.

29 other teams did not have Subban on their roster last season and most did better than us as a team. He is not bigger than the team. I could agree with people who have things to say about management but they're not the ones on the ice. I'm sorry that people's enjoyment will be taken away as a result of this trade but I don't necessarily see us as having a less entertaining team next year simply as a result of this trade. We have the loudest building in the league and the excitement will be there.

If you ask me, the last creative and exciting offensive line we have had was he Kostitsyn-Plekanec-Kovalev line and that was a long time ago. The EGG line was also good....for 5 games. I've still managed to enjoy every season since (last year was tough).

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I could agree with people who have things to say about management but they're not the ones on the ice.

That's the whole thing. People are not angry at Shea Weber or Carey Price. Some are mad at Max Pacioretty but that's based on rumours. The people who manage and organize the Montreal Canadiens, the ones not on the ice, just traded a player for reasons they were supposed to be taking responsibility for. The season was supposed to be on Marc Bergevin. It wasn't supposed to be blamed on the players. It could have been blamed on the coaches but he said he was taking responsibility. We all expected the coach to be fired but even his assistant coaches got to keep their jobs. "Next year will be better". It was an anomaly year and they would recover. Instead, they traded a player with the final 24 hours they could before he could say no for reasons beyond making the club better. It was so they could get rid of the player while he had high enough value they could trade him for someone that fit their image better. We traded our best playoff skater for a guy the coach will like better. And when the media reacted poorly to it, Bergevin begged them to talk about something else and alluded to mysterious problems that several former and current Habs have already said wasn't true.

I lived through Corey and Tremblay. I've lived through Gauthier and Cunnyworth. Am I just supposed to ignore that and cheer for a club that wants to constantly shoot itself in the face? Maybe when Bergevin and Therrien are gone the rage will subside but even today this deal still tells me that the Montreal Canadiens are like every other Canadian team. They don't care about winning the Stanley Cup. They care about building an image. And I want nothing to do with that image.

Will next season be better? 1995-96 and 1996-97 were better seasons than 1994-95 with a healthy Patrick Roy. It doesn't matter if they do better in the regular season next season. They were gonna do better anyway with Carey Price back. But this team isn't winning a Stanley Cup run by the Foxhole Regime. And there's no way I'm gonna support this club while they run it.

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This is our best GM since Serge Savard in 95. Frankly,

Subban leaving doesn't overshadow the 15-20 years of damnation that MB has been in charge of resurrecting.

If you're leaving now. Now? That doesn't make sense to me.

That's all I'm going to add to this silly thread I've been avoiding lol

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Guest Stogey24

I think your speaking for a lot of people with that post MoLG.

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Well I guess the coming seasons will be very quiet here since most of you will stop following the habs when MB and MT is running the team...

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That's the whole thing. People are not angry at Shea Weber or Carey Price. Some are mad at Max Pacioretty but that's based on rumours. The people who manage and organize the Montreal Canadiens, the ones not on the ice, just traded a player for reasons they were supposed to be taking responsibility for. The season was supposed to be on Marc Bergevin. It wasn't supposed to be blamed on the players. It could have been blamed on the coaches but he said he was taking responsibility. We all expected the coach to be fired but even his assistant coaches got to keep their jobs. "Next year will be better". It was an anomaly year and they would recover. Instead, they traded a player with the final 24 hours they could before he could say no for reasons beyond making the club better. It was so they could get rid of the player while he had high enough value they could trade him for someone that fit their image better. We traded our best playoff skater for a guy the coach will like better. And when the media reacted poorly to it, Bergevin begged them to talk about something else and alluded to mysterious problems that several former and current Habs have already said wasn't true.

I lived through Corey and Tremblay. I've lived through Gauthier and Cunnyworth. Am I just supposed to ignore that and cheer for a club that wants to constantly shoot itself in the face? Maybe when Bergevin and Therrien are gone the rage will subside but even today this deal still tells me that the Montreal Canadiens are like every other Canadian team. They don't care about winning the Stanley Cup. They care about building an image. And I want nothing to do with that image.

Will next season be better? 1995-96 and 1996-97 were better seasons than 1994-95 with a healthy Patrick Roy. It doesn't matter if they do better in the regular season next season. They were gonna do better anyway with Carey Price back. But this team isn't winning a Stanley Cup run by the Foxhole Regime. And there's no way I'm gonna support this club while they run it.

.

The problem is that this move doesn't kill our team as clearly as people make it out to be. People are reacting as though Subban is Alex Ovechkin and the return was Brad Richards midway through last season. It's just not reality. There's one thing to love the guy but his impact was what it was and can be replaced in a different way.

"Our team will be better next season but that's not the point". Okay then. I hope those who complain about the Subban trade once we go on our first losing streak next season remember that that wasn't the argument.

Do I understand the mentality? Sure. But as soon as the season starts it won't last for a good 90% of the fans who are stating this opinion. Unless we're losing. Then everyone will be on the same page.

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.The problem is that this move doesn't kill our team as clearly as people make it out to be. People are reacting as though Subban is Alex Ovechkin and the return was Brad Richards midway through last season. It's just not reality. There's one thing to love the guy but his impact was what it was and can be replaced in a different way.

"Our team will be better next season but that's not the point". Okay then. I hope those who complain about the Subban trade once we go on our first losing streak next season remember that that wasn't the argument.

Do I understand the mentality? Sure. But as soon as the season starts it won't last for a good 90% of the fans who are stating this opinion. Unless we're losing. Then everyone will be on the same page.

You must have not read my post because I made it clear this isn't about the net positive or net negative of switching Subban and Weber. It's about the trade itself. People did this when Gauthier traded Mike Cammalleri mid-game against the Boston Bruins. "Look at the cap savings and Rene Bourque can be close to as good, plus we got a goalie and a pick" I don't care. My problem is making the trade at all. My problem is having buyer's remorse over P.K. Subban now. My problem is this organization making a public statement that management would not lose their jobs for the season only to trade the second most important player on the team because he's not the most important.

The thing is, the Habs could lose 82 games for the next five years straight (or the equivalent of that, see the Toronto Maple Leafs and Edmonton Oilers) and people will still be there to support them, get excited about future draft picks, etc. Which is okay! But like I showed. Montreal did better in the season Roy was traded and the season without Roy at all than they did in the year they had Roy for the whole year. Montreal's record improved. Was Montreal a better club without Patrick Roy though? This is about my confidence in the Foxhole Regime. It's gone. Why would I support something I have no faith in? Why goto a church when you think their word is lies? Habit? I'm not gonna be a Habs fan just out of habit.

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Im going to cheer for Weber and support him. It isnt his fault he was traded.

That is one thing I forgot to mention in my post... I feel bad for Weber through all this. He is a great player in his own right and does not deserve the boos that he is likely to get early in the season. I call on all Habs fans angry about this move to not take their anger out on him. That being said, I'm reconsidering him as a keeper in my fantasy league, haha.

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Don't forget Weber will come into next season off the WC which are held in Toronto. Unless he totally craps the bed there, along with Team Canada, he's likely to come in with a lot of positive buzz. Subban wasn't even invited to a tournament in his home town. I think that probably factored into Bergevin's calculations as far as public relations were concerned. Not that Bergy seems to lose a lot of sleep over public opinion, but if it was the other way round and Subby was on the team for the Toronto event, I think he would have been a lot more reluctant to do the deal. As it is I don't think Weber will elicit any negative response worth noting.

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Guest Stogey24

You honestly think Weber being selected for the world championships or Subban not, had anything to do with that trade being made?

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You honestly think Weber being selected for the world championships or Subban not, had anything to do with that trade being made?

Made it a bit easier from Bergevin's point of view. I imagine that Subban would have gotten a ton of publicity in TO if he was on the team. If they are successful, which is very likely, he would have the medal and all the hype that goes with it, and the whining among Mtl fans would have been twice as loud. Whether Bergy and the staff considered that or not, I can't say, but since this thread is about public perception and fan reaction, I thought it was a relevent point. I guarantee you that if Canada wins, the Canadiens' PR department will make a huge deal of Shea Weber's participation and contributions to offset the negativity.

For me the fact that Weber is on the team and Subban is not is much more significant from a purely hockey perspective than from a P.R. perspective, but since most fans don't seem to accept that Weber might be the better defenseman, at least Bergevin deserves to get some media positivity from the WC.

Edited by ethan raphael

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Made it a bit easier from Bergevin's point of view. I imagine that Subban would have gotten a ton of publicity in TO if he was on the team. If they are successful, which is very likely, he would have the medal and all the hype that goes with it, and the whining among Mtl fans would have been twice as loud. Whether Bergy and the staff considered that or not, I can't say, but since this thread is about public perception and fan reaction, I thought it was a relevent point. I guarantee you that if Canada wins, the Canadiens' PR department will make a huge deal of Shea Weber's participation and contributions to offset the negativity.

While I agree that the marketing department will make a big deal out of Weber winning gold if Canada wins (they'll spin anything for a catchy/annoying tweet or two), I honestly don't think Subban not being named to the team or Weber being named had any real impact on this. The World Cup is a gimmicky money grab by the league and NHLPA, not (yet) a tournament of international significance. When you make a trade like this, the focus should be solely on the NHL, not international play. And considering the trade was made, I don't think Bergevin is all that worried about public sentiment (and the fans who wanted Subban there will still make their arguments as to why he should have been even if Canada wins, that much is a given).

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While I agree that the marketing department will make a big deal out of Weber winning gold if Canada wins (they'll spin anything for a catchy/annoying tweet or two), I honestly don't think Subban not being named to the team or Weber being named had any real impact on this. The World Cup is a gimmicky money grab by the league and NHLPA, not (yet) a tournament of international significance. When you make a trade like this, the focus should be solely on the NHL, not international play. And considering the trade was made, I don't think Bergevin is all that worried about public sentiment (and the fans who wanted Subban there will still make their arguments as to why he should have been even if Canada wins, that much is a given).

Ya, I didn't mean that it was a huge factor, just that Weber can come to town fresh off a fairly high profile winning situation, which won't hurt his chances of acceptance by the local fans at all.

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Don't forget Weber will come into next season off the WC which are held in Toronto. Unless he totally craps the bed there, along with Team Canada, he's likely to come in with a lot of positive buzz. Subban wasn't even invited to a tournament in his home town. I think that probably factored into Bergevin's calculations as far as public relations were concerned. Not that Bergy seems to lose a lot of sleep over public opinion, but if it was the other way round and Subby was on the team for the Toronto event, I think he would have been a lot more reluctant to do the deal. As it is I don't think Weber will elicit any negative response worth noting.

Boy, you're really all in on the Team Canada angle.

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I don't think the fans will attack weber. I would say Therrien and Bergevin will be booed out of town if the team isn't successful.

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You must have not read my post because I made it clear this isn't about the net positive or net negative of switching Subban and Weber. It's about the trade itself. People did this when Gauthier traded Mike Cammalleri mid-game against the Boston Bruins. "Look at the cap savings and Rene Bourque can be close to as good, plus we got a goalie and a pick" I don't care. My problem is making the trade at all. My problem is having buyer's remorse over P.K. Subban now. My problem is this organization making a public statement that management would not lose their jobs for the season only to trade the second most important player on the team because he's not the most important.

The thing is, the Habs could lose 82 games for the next five years straight (or the equivalent of that, see the Toronto Maple Leafs and Edmonton Oilers) and people will still be there to support them, get excited about future draft picks, etc. Which is okay! But like I showed. Montreal did better in the season Roy was traded and the season without Roy at all than they did in the year they had Roy for the whole year. Montreal's record improved. Was Montreal a better club without Patrick Roy though? This is about my confidence in the Foxhole Regime. It's gone. Why would I support something I have no faith in? Why goto a church when you think their word is lies? Habit? I'm not gonna be a Habs fan just out of habit.

I think the Patrick Roy example is a great one.

With that being said, I personally would not support the management team if I saw them making moves that led to us finishing last every season with abysmal record after abysmal record. That hasn't happened yet.

I'm more than willing to change my opinion if there is any evidence out there to prove that management did this move only to save their jobs because as far as I know, they still would have been here next season even if we kept Subban. In addition, I don't believe they have a longer leash now just because of the move.

I don't mean to compare the gravity of the move with anything that happened last season but I was one of the few who thought Bergevin completely mishandled the Semin situation. It wasn't necessarily because I believed Semin wasn't washed up. It was because Bergevin was the one who acquired him and then was the same one to let him go at a time where we had no one to fill the hole that Bergevin acquired Semin to fill. While Semin is a far worse player than Subban, it was still the same management team who handled that situation.

Point is from that moment, I lost my faith in Bergevin. It didn't change the fact that I wanted our team to be the best they could be and enjoy success. I do also believe at this point in time that it could potentially be a decent move. Time will tell.

If this move turns out to be a similar type of mistake to an even greater extent, then you win the argument and it sucks to be a Habs fan. Is that what everyone wants to hear?

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Roy went to a loaded team in Colorado. There is nothing to suggest he would have had the same impact if he stayed with the Habs. As a previous poster said, the team wasn't playing well with him prior to the deal and was also unloading a lot of high salary vets at the time at the direction of ownership. Roy knew he was better off moving to another team, particularly the Avs at that stage.

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Team Canada

Where Kris Draper and Kirk Maltby are better than an 18 year-old Sidney Crosby

Where Rob Zamuner is selected over Mark Messier and Ron Francis.

Where Chris Kunitz is better than Claude Giroux and Martin St. Louis.

Where Steve Yzerman couldn't make the team in the 80s and early 90s despite being the third or fourth leading scorer in the NHL many years.

Where Bill Ranford was better than Patrick Roy in 1991.

Team Canada ladies and gentlemen, lets give them the final say on what players are better than other players.

They often win in spite of these stupid decisions, cause Canada is just that deep and talented.

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Well, I think they try to pick the most balanced team, not the highest scorers in the league at each position or the ones who get the most media attention. As you say it seems to work.

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The point went well over your head, didn't it.

Picking Zamuner... didn't work, and was stupid.

Picking Maltby and Draper, didn't work and the 2006 team couldn't score goals.... wonder if Crosby who had over 100 points in the NHL that year could have helped. Or Eric Staal, who also had 100 points in the NHL that year, and won the Stanley Cup later that spring.... We needed Detroits third liners to be on the olympic team though.

Also how is picking Bill Ranford over Patrick Roy building a "balanced team"?

The idea that just because they are team canada, they can do no wrong and always pick the best players is just flat out incorrect.

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The point went well over your head, didn't it.

Picking Zamuner... didn't work, and was stupid.

Picking Maltby and Draper, didn't work and the 2006 team couldn't score goals.... wonder if Crosby who had over 100 points in the NHL that year could have helped. Or Eric Staal, who also had 100 points in the NHL that year, and won the Stanley Cup later that spring.... We needed Detroits third liners to be on the olympic team though.

Also how is picking Bill Ranford over Patrick Roy building a "balanced team"?

The idea that just because they are team canada, they can do no wrong and always pick the best players is just flat out incorrect.

I agree with you here except neither Subban nor Weber are third pairing defensemen. One could argue that Subban deserves to be on the team and one could also argue that Weber making the team means he's a stud of a defenseman, which he is. I honestly don't think people realize how much of a presence he is on both ends of the ice.

Subban is much more of a presence on the rush but once the game is setup either in the defensive zone or offensive zone, I'd rather Weber and I think there are an honest amount of players who feel the same way when facing both players. I know Weber's defensive analytics weren't as high but I still like the physical presence he brings in the defensive end. Let's just hope he is paired with a mobile defenseman like Beaulieu, which he should be.

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It seems pretty clear that a healthy Carey Price is the biggest key to Habs' success. Weber helping to keep him clean is reason enough to do the deal on it's own. The intimidation factor that he brings with his size and willingness to use his body doesn't show up in statistical analysis, but it sticks in the minds of his opponents on the ice. I'm pretty sure that Price knows his job is going to be easier with Weber on the team and appreciates that.

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It seems pretty clear that a healthy Carey Price is the biggest key to Habs' success. Weber helping to keep him clean is reason enough to do the deal on it's own. The intimidation factor that he brings with his size and willingness to use his body doesn't show up in statistical analysis, but it sticks in the minds of his opponents on the ice. I'm pretty sure that Price knows his job is going to be easier with Weber on the team and appreciates that.

Rinne got run a few times last season with Weber on the ice. It infuriated Preds fans. Don't expect much.

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