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2016-17 NHL Season Thread

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hab29RETIRED    169
Just now, Scott462 said:

Subban does not have to be the best defender on the Nashville Predators the way he had to be with Montreal. He can have a shitty game and get carried by the other 3 #1 defenseman. I think that has a lot to do with his success in Nashville.

From your comments it's clear you haven't watched a single Nashville game in the playoffs, or are just blind.

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Scott462    55
2 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

From your comments it's clear you haven't watched a single Nashville game in the playoffs, or are just blind.

 

Whatever you say pal! ūüėĄ

 

I should of been more clear that it wasn't a knock on Subban but just pointing out that it's ok if he has a bad game because there are other defenders that can step up to the plate. Subban never had that luxury in Montreal. He has been great in these playoffs

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JoeLassister    276
22 minutes ago, Scott462 said:

 

Whatever you say pal! ūüėĄ

 

I should of been more clear that it wasn't a knock on Subban but just pointing out that it's ok if he has a bad game because there are other defenders that can step up to the plate. Subban never had that luxury in Montreal. He has been great in these playoffs

He's been great in every playoffs.

 

He's been our top pts producer in his last 3 playoffs runs with us.

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Scott462    55
8 minutes ago, JoeLassister said:

He's been great in every playoffs.

 

He's been our top pts producer in his last 3 playoffs runs with us.

 

I half agree with you. He definitely was our best playoff performer but did have some underwhelming series again TB and New York in the past.

 

Not sure what that has to do with the point of my post though.

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Commandant    609
56 minutes ago, Scott462 said:

Subban does not have to be the best defender on the Nashville Predators the way he had to be with Montreal. He can have a shitty game and get carried by the other 3 #1 defenseman. I think that has a lot to do with his success in Nashville.

 

He hasn't had many shitty games in the playoffs. 

 

He has been charged with shutting down Toews, Tarasenko and Getzlaf.   They totaled 3 goals in 16 games against Nashville. 

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BCHabnut    163

This is awesome. Love this site more and more. We need habs30/31 back. I could go for some top Centre spam. That guy was a beauty

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Stogey24    254
2 minutes ago, BCHabnut said:

This is awesome. Love this site more and more. We need habs30/31 back. I could go for some top Centre spam. That guy was a beauty

It's the off season.... Gotta talk about something

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Scott462    55
54 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

He hasn't had many shitty games in the playoffs. 

 

He has been charged with shutting down Toews, Tarasenko and Getzlaf.   They totaled 3 goals in 16 games against Nashville. 

 

Indeed

 

In Montreal he was leaned on incredibly heavily as a offensive minded defender that often got caught up in trying to do too much because he thought he had too. Now with Nashville he is basically a shutdown defender, with Josi and Ellis getting more of the offence assignments. It has simplified his game and he is thriving like I said I'm happy for him.

 

It was funny because I made the comment that Subban looked like Weber out their at times playing excellent defence at some point during the regular season and he is fitting into that role very well.

 

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Commandant    609

Subban is tied with Josi in Playoff points, and is 1 point behind Ryan Ellis. 

 

Its not like he's abandoned his offence either. 

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Scott462    55
1 minute ago, Commandant said:

Subban is tied with Josi in Playoff points, and is 1 point behind Ryan Ellis. 

 

Its not like he's abandoned his offence either. 

 

No but it's clear what the schematic is in Nashville and Subban gets the tougher minutes and is not leaned on as much as he was in Montreal.

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Commandant    609

Sure, I agree with that. 

 

Which makes the fact that Subban is right there in points with the two guys getting the easier assignments even more impressive. 

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He's the second best defenceman in the playoffs. No question that Karlsson is doing what Subban used to do in Montreal. Subban has had tougher defensive assignments but he isn't putting the points up or carrying a weak team like Karlsson is.

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Scott462    55
5 minutes ago, Commandant said:

Sure, I agree with that. 

 

Which makes the fact that Subban is right there in points with the two guys getting the easier assignments even more impressive. 

 

Absolutely which is why I give Weber so much props getting the points he gets all the while consistently taking on the toughest minutes.

 

Subban and Weber are both amazing defenders but Subban is 4 years younger.

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Commandant    609

The difference is that Weber is not producing any numbers to speak of in 5v5 situations.  He had less 5v5 points than Matt Hunwick this year. 

 

But yeah he's not giving up many goals either. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, BCHabnut said:

This is awesome. Love this site more and more. We need habs30/31 back. I could go for some top Centre spam. That guy was a beauty

 

Hey, who's laughing now? Powerplay Plekanic (sic) is a roach.

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illWill    419

:wall:

 

^^ Me reading this thread ^^

 

To summarize to those just joining in:

 

Some people are of the belief that the Predators clearly won the trade because Subban is going to be playing for the Cup with his new team. Others like to point out that Nashville was already a superior team and that hockey is a team sport, not a one man show.

 

Conclusion: 

 

Nashville is better than they were last year but so is Montreal. Both players fit into their teams very well and the results show that. I want to cheer for Subban and Nashville because I love watching him play and the fans there are great, however I also find myself cheering against them because I dread coming onto this Montreal Canadiens fan forum and reading some of the "I told ya so" comments. There were far less posts about this trade the first few months of the season when Weber was in the Norris/Hart trophy conversation while Subban couldn't find his ass from his head. 

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3 hours ago, Scott462 said:

 

Weber helped the Habs in many ways. The point? In the end only MB and the Montreal Canadiens management know that answer.

 

Subbans comments at the end of the season and at the NHL awards probably didn't help his cause either. 

 

In fact, we are in a position to observe that the team with Weber was not appreciably better than the team with Subban. The results speak for themselves.

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xXx..CK..xXx    146
4 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said:

so you don't think the improvement in the PP had anything to do with adding Radulov???? And yes, i do think that Subban learned to play a more controlled game than he did with the habs. In Nashville he had a real coach worth listening to.  not some boob who was hung up with trivial things like the low-five and had it in for Subban as an analyst.  Even after Subban was moved the GM that moved him called the team a fragile team after losing to the rangers.  So how exactly did he improve the situation bringing in the greatest leader since Julius Caesar?

While I didn't mind Therrien as much as others, I completely agree that It seems as though Laviolette has pushed the right buttons with Subban. I give him huge kuddos for that. Like you, I'm not sure that would have happened in Montreal. The Radulov argument has been counteracted with the fact that Weber helped his decision in coming here. I think Weber deserves credit for helping our power play. I knew people would bring up Muller, but that's too easy to say. It doesn't change the fact that Weber seems to get more shots through. It's similar to comparing Burns to Weber. Burns gets more shots through than anyone else and Weber gets more through than others.

 

 

4 hours ago, Commandant said:

 

"What I don't understand is how people don't realize that Subban and Weber will have different impacts on their respective teams."

 

You don't understand it, because you keep thinking this is what people are arguing.  They aren't arguing it at all. 

 

They are arguing that all the reasons given for Subban needing to be traded just haven't shown themselves in Nashville.   The three players that he checked in the playoffs.... Getzlaf, Tarasenko, and Toews, had 3 goals against Nashville in their series.  He is not a defensive liability. Meanwhile he is trailing Ellis by what 2 points?

 

Nashville's lockeroom has been fine.  He's not a liability there, even after they lost a "superior locker room guy" in Weber.

 

As for the PP improving... Muller and Radulov have to also be considered here.  It wasn't all Weber. 

 

 

I think it's obvious that most of the issues that were brought up about Subban would not show themselves in his first year after being traded. If being traded isn't enough for someone to introspect and make adjustments, then I don't know what is. He truly would have to be a legitimate narcissist to cause problems in the locker room of a new team right away after apparently having trouble with his previous team. I don't know if Subban actually was a problem in the room. At the very least though, it seems safe to conclude that he would have felt a lot more comfortable and "at home" in Montreal after years of being there. I can see how Nashville benefitted, thus the win for them as well, but it doesn't mean he would have been this way in Montreal without having dealt with being traded. It doesn't mean he wouldn't have been either, but the shock of being traded will have a blow to the ego and maybe he wants to prove everyone wrong more than ever. He was motivated and that's fine and to be respected. 

 

Im sure Edmonton isn't complaining about the problems we had with Kassian either. So what? 

 

Subban has no problem being a shut down defenseman. He can be physical and skates well and can shadow anyone as a result. I for one never thought he was as bad defensively as say, a Karlsson, although I think Karlsson is better offensively. The issue was his individualistic play and turnovers. Because of reasons which have been touched on, he seems to be playing more of a complete game now. With that being said, in game 5 against Nashville, he did a spin-o-rama behind the back pass as the last man back in his defensive zone which led to a breakaway for

Anaheim. Those are the types of plays that I don't personally miss even though yes you'll see someone like Emelin do a similar play and turn it over as the last man back from time to time so it's not only him who does it.

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Scott462    55
33 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

In fact, we are in a position to observe that the team with Weber was not appreciably better than the team with Subban. The results speak for themselves.

 

Thats a very simplistic approach but sure have at it bud.

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49 minutes ago, illWill said:

There were far less posts about this trade the first few months of the season when Weber was in the Norris/Hart trophy conversation while Subban couldn't find his ass from his head. 

 

Of course there was. It was that time of the season where Montreal looks better than everyone in the world and we hope that means they'll be Cup contenders when the frost starts melting.

 

It happened in 15-16 with Tomas Fleichmann as the big Habs pickup. Then Price and Gallagher get hurt. Instead of trying to salvage the season (Montreal still had the second best record in the east on January 1st, 2016), Bergevin just watched the team burn itself out. Then they kept all of the coaching staff except an advisor and decided the team needed to get rid of their top defenceman in exchange for a guy who had one of the worst individual game playoff performances ever against the SJ Sharks.

 

Then in 16-17 with Alex Radulov added instead of Alex Semin, the team does the exact same thing! Best team in the league! So hot! Everyone excited! And then... the season starts going off the rails. With a healthy Carey Price. So to right the ship they fire Michel Therrien, one of the coaches protected from the 15-16 catastrophe, and at least finish at the best team in the dumpster fire Atlantic division. The only reason they won said division is because Ottawa crapped the bed in March and lost like three or four games against the Habs. They are now in the Conference final one game away from either elimination or the Stanley Cup final. Montreal meanwhile decided to nearly repeat 95-96 by taking a 2-1 lead in the series and then proceeding to be unable to score any goals while the captain got off with a "he's just snakebitten" excuse, Price gets blamed for not pitching a shutout, Radulov and Lehkonen look good at least, and Shea Weber once again starts strong and ends mild. Hope we don't hear the name of who he got traded for!

 

But yeah, there were far less posts in October/November because October/November hockey only matters to Brian Savage and... uh, you?

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50 minutes ago, Scott462 said:

 

Thats a very simplistic approach but sure have at it bud.

 

The alternative to using the evidence of our eyes and of results on the ice, is to rely on total faith that management is always right; which in this case involves the mystical belief that the trade made the Habs better in 'secret' ways that are hugely important and yet somehow fail to translate into better play, solutions to demonstrable team weaknesses, or results on the ice. I'll stick to the first method, thanks

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illWill    419
1 hour ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

But yeah, there were far less posts in October/November because October/November hockey only matters to Brian Savage and... uh, you?

 

You don't care about October or November hockey? Those results don't matter in the grand scheme of a season? I didn't realize that teams just magically appear in the playoffs. 

 

No, there were less posts because people that are open minded about the trade are less vocal about it. They realize that it was a hockey trade that benefited both teams and there is zero point to be constantly whining about it. 

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Commandant    609

I've seen Gomez and McDonagh mentioned in posts in the last month or so. 

 

But sure, I guess too much time has passed on this trade that we can't discuss it anymore.  Marc Bergevins defenders get upset when we talk about it. 

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50 minutes ago, illWill said:

 

You don't care about October or November hockey? Those results don't matter in the grand scheme of a season? I didn't realize that teams just magically appear in the playoffs. 

 

No, there were less posts because people that are open minded about the trade are less vocal about it. They realize that it was a hockey trade that benefited both teams and there is zero point to be constantly whining about it. 

 

Still waiting on this benefit having Weber instead of Subban. Maybe it will come next year? At least the Habs made it to the ECF in Gomez's first year.

 

Or maybe October/November is when it's better to have Weber than Subban. You know, when the regular games matter the absolute least. Maybe Weber can win a few more World Cups. That'll make October so much more exciting. 

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xXx..CK..xXx    146
48 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

The alternative to using the evidence of our eyes and of results on the ice, is to rely on total faith that management is always right; which in this case involves the mystical belief that the trade made the Habs better in 'secret' ways that are hugely important and yet somehow fail to translate into better play, solutions to demonstrable team weaknesses, or results on the ice. I'll stick to the first method, thanks

Last year we didn't make the playoffs. This season we did. Forget the argument that we are any better. How does the evidence show we're worse? That being said, three facts about last year are that Carey Price got injured, Brendan Gallagher got injured, and Subban had a terrible year by his standards.

 

Despite how it seems, Subban and Eberle were probably my favorite Canadian Junior players of all time. I don't know how Subban wasn't picked up in he first round. It's crazy. This doesn't change the fact that while I pride myself on trying to have an open mind in life, I was harder on Subban than any other player last year because he actually deserved it. A close second would be Eller in the type

of bonehead plays I am talking about. His fanboys are forgetting how he played last season, truly. 

 

As long as those hockey reasons for the trade remain mystical in your mind, then those reasons that the trade hurt our team should remain mystical as well. You've created the thought that the move was lateral, and that seems like a silly reason to complain about a trade unless one is irrationally attached to P.K. Subban in an emotional way.

 

At least I register that other people have mentioned how the move potentially hurt our transition game but the main thing we actually lost is entertainment value. Rivers are being cried over that. We can continue to ignore that our team played more as a unit and improved on the power play, or we can criticize our coaches because their system doesn't revolve around P.K. Subban's style of play. Because that's all we continue to hear. And sure, let's keep thinking that this was as bad a trade as losing Patrick Roy even before Nashville lifts he cup. Trading Price and seeing him lift a cup (which I believe would happen) would be the equivalent. Not trading PK Subban for an equal but different and more renown player.

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