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2016-17 NHL Season Thread

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DON    28
3 hours ago, Commandant said:

A few things.

 

1) Yes, everyone wants to copy the team that just won.  However you can't copy the Penguins.  You can't get the best player of his generation and another top 5 centre in the NHL.  Thats just not a blueprint that you can copy. 

 

2) The argument that Subban woke up Crosby is really, really, really stupid.  Seriously, it is incredibly stupid. 

 

In order to believe that narrative, you have to believe that Crosby wasn't giving 100% in the Stanley Cup Final.   Also you have to believe he is more motivated by a chirp than by the chance to win the Stanley Cup.  I'm sorry, but that is dumb.  

Hey, 2 posters post idiotic things over and over...and over, why single out this one in particular? And whose to say what does motivate someone, supposedly Crosby did little in 2 games and then killed Preds almost single handily in next game. But, everyone entitled to own opinion arnt they, without being called stupid and dumb?  

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Nashville looked a lot like the Habs on the powerplay lady night. Cycle it around the perimeter and try to fire it through the net.

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Commandant    606
3 hours ago, Stogey24 said:

Best player in the game, no question. 

 

Of course he is.   

 

Thats not what I'm arguing against at all.  

 

I'm arguing that people believe he wasn't trying until he got chirped.  That's weapons grade stupid.  

 

When the two analysts pushing this theory the hardest are Don Cherry and Mike Milbury, you know its dumb. 

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Commandant    606
2 hours ago, DON said:

Hey, 2 posters post idiotic things over and over...and over, why single out this one in particular? And whose to say what does motivate someone, supposedly Crosby did little in 2 games and then killed Preds almost single handily in next game. But, everyone entitled to own opinion arnt they, without being called stupid and dumb?  

 

The opinion is stupid... the narrative is stupid..... I never called the poster stupid.  there is a difference. 

 

 

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xXx..CK..xXx    146
3 hours ago, Commandant said:

 

The opinion is stupid... the narrative is stupid..... I never called the poster stupid.  there is a difference. 

 

 

It's only stupid to someone who believes there's no such thing as intangibles, a mental aspect to the game, and players who are able to elevate their game based on the situation i.e the playoffs.

 

It's silly to think that someone won't be  mentally affected by the comments made just like it's silly to think Johanssen and Kessler didn't have an impact on one another while they verbally jousted in their series. The only thing of consequence is how one responds to such adversity. Johanssen was praised for not shying away and outperformed Kessler just like Crosby apparently responded appropriately as well. Was the listerine comment in the forefront of his mind? Knowing Crosby, probably not. Did it add fuel to the fire? I don't see why not. 

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hab29RETIRED    167
1 hour ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

It's only stupid to someone who believes there's no such thing as intangibles, a mental aspect to the game, and players who are able to elevate their game based on the situation i.e the playoffs.

 

It's silly to think that someone won't be  mentally affected by the comments made just like it's silly to think Johanssen and Kessler didn't have an impact on one another while they verbally jousted in their series. The only thing of consequence is how one responds to such adversity. Johanssen was praised for not shying away and outperformed Kessler just like Crosby apparently responded appropriately as well. Was the listerine comment in the forefront of his mind? Knowing Crosby, probably not. Did it add fuel to the fire? I don't see why not. 

I don't think it was the comment itself. I think if it was made once it probably wouldn't have been as irritating.  I think it was the way it was played up and I think Crosby probably felt he wa being mocked a bit.  There was a reason why the preds made decision to make Subban unavailable to the media afterwards.

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xXx..CK..xXx    146
12 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

I don't think it was the comment itself. I think if it was made once it probably wouldn't have been as irritating.  I think it was the way it was played up and I think Crosby probably felt he wa being mocked a bit.  There was a reason why the preds made decision to make Subban unavailable to the media afterwards.

True, as I'm not sure the comment was even actually ever made. Crosby didn't seem very pleased when asked about it though, stating that Subban "likes attention" and so I agree that he would have used it as motivation to whatever extent that may be. I'm sure Crosby is more worried about the Pittsburgh Penguins rather than any individual on the Preds but if anything, it would have made him bring his "A" game afterward. There's no question he was giving effort beforehand as well but that doesn't mean he couldn't have been woken up either.

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Commandant    606
6 hours ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

It's only stupid to someone who believes there's no such thing as intangibles, a mental aspect to the game, and players who are able to elevate their game based on the situation i.e the playoffs.

 

It's silly to think that someone won't be  mentally affected by the comments made just like it's silly to think Johanssen and Kessler didn't have an impact on one another while they verbally jousted in their series. The only thing of consequence is how one responds to such adversity. Johanssen was praised for not shying away and outperformed Kessler just like Crosby apparently responded appropriately as well. Was the listerine comment in the forefront of his mind? Knowing Crosby, probably not. Did it add fuel to the fire? I don't see why not. 

 

I do believe in the mental aspect of the game.  I do believe that some players don't give 100% effort every game for 82 games. 

 

But Come On Man.... ITS THE STANLEY CUP FINAL

 

If you can't get motivated to play your best in the Stanley Cup Final, but a chirp gets you motivated, there is something wrong with your mental game. 

I simply can't believe that a player like Crosby wasn't motivated to play his best with the cup on the line... and this suddenly made him more motivated. 

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DON    28
8 hours ago, Commandant said:

 

I do believe in the mental aspect of the game.  I do believe that some players don't give 100% effort every game for 82 games. 

 

But Come On Man.... ITS THE STANLEY CUP FINAL

 

If you can't get motivated to play your best in the Stanley Cup Final, but a chirp gets you motivated, there is something wrong with your mental game. 

I simply can't believe that a player like Crosby wasn't motivated to play his best with the cup on the line... and this suddenly made him more motivated. 

In his 115th or 120th game of the never ending season, you cant believe a player cant lose focus or be distracted...are you serious?

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nihilz    30

Must be the off season.

 

STOP! Semantics time!

 

*MC Hammer's away

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JoeLassister    276
1 hour ago, DON said:

In his 115th or 120th game of the never ending season, you cant believe a player cant lose focus or be distracted...are you serious?

Gotta be on Commandant's side on this one.

 

You're Sidney Crosby, captain of the Pens, defending SC champions.

You're the best player in the league, one of the best ever.

 

Sure you can "lose focus", but you cannot lack motivation in game 3-4 of the SC.

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51 minutes ago, JoeLassister said:

Gotta be on Commandant's side on this one.

 

You're Sidney Crosby, captain of the Pens, defending SC champions.

You're the best player in the league, one of the best ever.

 

Sure you can "lose focus", but you cannot lack motivation in game 3-4 of the SC.

 

This whole issue reminds me a bit of Luongo in the 2011 Finals. At one point in the series, he commented that it wasn't his job to "pump Tim Thomas's tires." A teapot tempest broke out about whether Luongo had just "disrespected" Thomas. :rolleyes: I don't doubt that the Bruins worked that into their pre-game chatter to psych themselves up, and similarly, I wouldn't be surprised if Crosby or the Pens as a whole worked themselves into high dudgeon over the "Listerine" remark. Both remarks were totally innocuous, completely inoffensive by any rational analysis, but that's not how the NHL works of course.

 

That said, I'm far closer to Commandant's side on this, because I just don't think that such dressing-room sloganeering is all that important at that level. It's window-dressing. Fundamentally, the Pens took over the series at the end because they made adjustments to what Nashville was throwing at them, and Nashville was not able to find a response. The dynamic is exactly like what happened in the Habs' series against the Rags: at about the Game Five mark, one team finds an extra adaptation that the other team can't adjust to, and that settles it. Most series work this way, actually. But of course it takes knowledge and skill to analyze the adjustments made - and therefore most commentators focus instead on the sideshow.

 

But as far as the sideshow itself goes, here is a good piece: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/kelly-hard-working-crosby-wins-nhls-cultural-cold-war/article35293245/

 

 

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Commandant    606
2 hours ago, DON said:

In his 115th or 120th game of the never ending season, you cant believe a player cant lose focus or be distracted...are you serious?

 

I believe a player can lose focus in February, sure. 

 

I don't believe a player loses focus in the Stanley Cup final. 

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Commandant    606
6 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

This whole issue reminds me a bit of Luongo in the 2011 Finals. At one point in the series, he commented that it wasn't his job to "pump Tim Thomas's tires." A teapot tempest broke out about whether Luongo had just "disrespected" Thomas. :rolleyes: I don't doubt that the Bruins worked that into their pre-game chatter to psych themselves up, and similarly, I wouldn't be surprised if Crosby or the Pens as a whole worked themselves into high dudgeon over the "Listerine" remark. Both remarks were totally innocuous, completely inoffensive by any rational analysis, but that's not how the NHL works of course.

 

That said, I'm far closer to Commandant's side on this, because I just don't think that such dressing-room sloganeering is all that important at that level. It's window-dressing. Fundamentally, the Pens took over the series at the end because they made adjustments to what Nashville was throwing at them, and Nashville was not able to find a response. The dynamic is exactly like what happened in the Habs' series against the Rags: at about the Game Five mark, one team finds an extra adaptation that the other team can't adjust to, and that settles it. Most series work this way, actually. But of course it takes knowledge and skill to analyze the adjustments made - and therefore most commentators focus instead on the sideshow.

 

But as far as the sideshow itself goes, here is a good piece: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/kelly-hard-working-crosby-wins-nhls-cultural-cold-war/article35293245/

 

 

 

What adjustments did the Penguins make. 

 

1) More careful about where the dump ins went.  Targetted Josi's side of the ice in the Josi Ellis pairing, while keeping puck away from Rinne as well. 

 

2) Shot gaps on the defenders. 

 

3) Defensively cleared the front of their net and didn't allow Nashville many second chance opportunities in games 5 and 6. 

 

But sure, it was the listerine comment that guys like Milbury and Cherry love to harp on. 

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8 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

What adjustments did the Penguins make. 

 

1) More careful about where the dump ins went.  Targetted Josi's side of the ice in the Josi Ellis pairing, while keeping puck away from Rinne as well. 

 

2) Shot gaps on the defenders. 

 

3) Defensively cleared the front of their net and didn't allow columbus many second chance opportunities in games 5 and 6. 

 

But sure, it was the listerine comment that guys like Milbury and Cherry love to harp on. 

 

Some people have been waiting all playoff for Subban to make a mistake which they can pounce on to "prove" that he is not a team player, not a good Canadian boy, etc., etc., etc.. Rather like when he gives the puck away or makes an on-ice gaffe, it's taken to "prove" he is not defensively sound, while when Shea Weber or Drew Doughty does that, it's completely overlooked. There's a much wider "cultural war" in pro hockey and Subban is at the very centre of it. Meanwhile, the fact that he was, on balance, Nashville's best player over the whole span of the playoffs, is overlooked, because he used the word "Listerine." :rolleyes: And like I said before, if Brent Burns had said that, nobody would be up in arms about it, because Burns is a pre-approved Good Old Boy.

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xXx..CK..xXx    146

I think either way nobody is wrong. Just because someone is Mike Milbury or Don Cherry, it doesn't prove the point that whoever thinks that way is wrong. The real story is somewhere in between. Long story short, Crosby already wanted to win, but this incident rubbed him the wrong way.  I didn't even know Don Cherry or Milbury said that, nor did I start the topic. With that being said, I think it's fair to say that Crosby didn't appreciate the incident, as he shouldn't have. I'm trying to find a way to personally word it without attacking Subban, because truthfully this has nothing to do with him, but If he's going to be praised for getting under the skin and shutting down other players like Toews and Getzlaf, then he deserves to take the heat when the opposing team's top talent raises his game in response to the defenseman he happens to be playing the series against. Especially when one makes comments about them off the ice.

 

I believe Crosby was already motivated as well. I also thought the Pens would have won the cup in 6 games regardless of the comment. So yes, in reality, I don't think overall the comment or situation as a whole changed the outcome of the series. I do see how it would have made him want to perform however and the expression "waking up the bear" isn't actually too far off. 

 

Crosby is a different animal than most, I admit but I've played a lot of finals in another sport, and even though I always want to win, there is a difference, at least for me, when it comes to going into the match without any thoughts of hatred towards my opponent compared to when I have something to either prove or some type of motivating thoughts going through my mind. I'm a coach now so I don't get to play many players at my level anymore but when I used to play someone who was better than me and wanted to actually have a chance, I never liked them during the match.

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hab29RETIRED    167
2 hours ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

I think either way nobody is wrong. Just because someone is Mike Milbury or Don Cherry, it doesn't prove the point that whoever thinks that way is wrong. The real story is somewhere in between. Long story short, Crosby already wanted to win, but this incident rubbed him the wrong way.  I didn't even know Don Cherry or Milbury said that, nor did I start the topic. With that being said, I think it's fair to say that Crosby didn't appreciate the incident, as he shouldn't have. I'm trying to find a way to personally word it without attacking Subban, because truthfully this has nothing to do with him, but If he's going to be praised for getting under the skin and shutting down other players like Toews and Getzlaf, then he deserves to take the heat when the opposing team's top talent raises his game in response to the defenseman he happens to be playing the series against. Especially when one makes comments about them off the ice.

 

I believe Crosby was already motivated as well. I also thought the Pens would have won the cup in 6 games regardless of the comment. So yes, in reality, I don't think overall the comment or situation as a whole changed the outcome of the series. I do see how it would have made him want to perform however and the expression "waking up the bear" isn't actually too far off. 

 

Crosby is a different animal than most, I admit but I've played a lot of finals in another sport, and even though I always want to win, there is a difference, at least for me, when it comes to going into the match without any thoughts of hatred towards my opponent compared to when I have something to either prove or some type of motivating thoughts going through my mind. I'm a coach now so I don't get to play many players at my level anymore but when I used to play someone who was better than me, I never liked them during the match.

I had brought up the wake the bear/poke the bear comment.  I also didn't hear it from milbury or cherry - frankly I avoid listening to either of those two blowhards - and can't understand how they have jobs!!!

 

i think in most sports you never want to give any opposition extra motivation, regardless of the time or circumstance that will motivate them not only to win - but to beat you personally, or to provide them something to rally around.  I don't care if it's a preseason game, or the Stanley cup final, if there is that extra animosity to someone, it will motivate them more.

 

As you said, i think that Subban did an amazing job of shutting down the opposition thoughtful the playoffs and was by far their best player (Rinne would have have been my pick for the top preds player, if he wasn't crap for all 3 games in Pittsburgh).  I think he does a great job getting under the oppositions skin.  But once the game is over he needs to learn when to shut up and what to say to the media.  You never want to give your opposition bulletin board material.  There was a reason why the preds did not make him available to the media - which I thought was wrong, but it would never have happened if Subban didn't keep beating a dead horse.  I have no problem with Subban expressing himself, but he needs to learn (and I think he will), to both pick his spots and be aware of what he is saying and how that will be interpreted.

 

i think I said this in an earlier post, there have only been two instances I've been critical of what he's said.  This incident  (not the initial interview comment, but carrying on and on about something that was probably made up anyways), and the "I don't get paid to score comment"

 

i think there is real animosity and lack of respect towards Subban by Crosby.  During the handshake line, despite Subban patting him on the shoulder, Crosby barely even looked at him (hardly the action of a gracious champion), that was very different from how he reacted in the previous victories in earlier rounds - even with ovechkin - who he also had issues with).

 

subban on the other hand showed great leadership and class by leading the handshake line for the preds.  He also has always spoken very respectful of Crosby (which I don't think has been reciprocated).

 

i love his enthusiasm and the way he is with the media, he just needs to learn when to curb it.  During the NBA finals post game interviews lebron was more open and honest and confident than 99% of NHL players are when dealt ng with the media, but he never gave his opposition bulletin board material.

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DON    28
6 hours ago, JoeLassister said:

Gotta be on Commandant's side on this one.

 

You're Sidney Crosby, captain of the Pens, defending SC champions.

You're the best player in the league, one of the best ever.

 

Sure you can "lose focus", but you cannot lack motivation in game 3-4 of the SC.

If you were a robot I would agree you would give exact same effort/result every game. Why the discrepancy in Nashville's play at home vs on the road or Rinne's play from game to game...I am damn well sure he wants badly to win every game...but does he and his teammates have same performance. No, because they are all human and not automatons without 1,000 different things on their minds. Crosby may be best but he dosent play the same every game does he? And why is that?  

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Commandant    606
6 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Some people have been waiting all playoff for Subban to make a mistake which they can pounce on to "prove" that he is not a team player, not a good Canadian boy, etc., etc., etc.. Rather like when he gives the puck away or makes an on-ice gaffe, it's taken to "prove" he is not defensively sound, while when Shea Weber or Drew Doughty does that, it's completely overlooked. There's a much wider "cultural war" in pro hockey and Subban is at the very centre of it. Meanwhile, the fact that he was, on balance, Nashville's best player over the whole span of the playoffs, is overlooked, because he used the word "Listerine." :rolleyes: And like I said before, if Brent Burns had said that, nobody would be up in arms about it, because Burns is a pre-approved Good Old Boy.

 

The forward Subban played the most minutes against in each series. 

 

Toews, Tarasenko, Getzlaf, Malkin. 

 

Number of 5v5 goals those four players scored with Subban on the ice = 0

 

They didn't have anything to say about his defence, so they had to make up a narrative to bash him. 

 

 

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Commandant    606
32 minutes ago, DON said:

If you were a robot I would agree you would give exact same effort/result every game. Why the discrepancy in Nashville's play at home vs on the road or Rinne's play from game to game...I am damn well sure he wants badly to win every game...but does he and his teammates have same performance. No, because they are all human and not automatons without 1,000 different things on their minds. Crosby may be best but he dosent play the same every game does he? And why is that?  

 

No one is saying you have to give the exact same effort every game. 

 

However this is the Stanley Cup Final.  You should not need extra motivation at this period of the season. 

 

Of course guys are playing at a different level in the final, vs a Tuesday night in February... no one is arguing that fact. 

 

But when the cup is on the line, the intensity should already be there. A comment doesn't change that. 

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Trizzak    444
23 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

No one is saying you have to give the exact same effort every game. 

 

However this is the Stanley Cup Final.  You should not need extra motivation at this period of the season. 

 

Of course guys are playing at a different level in the final, vs a Tuesday night in February... no one is arguing that fact. 

 

But when the cup is on the line, the intensity should already be there. A comment doesn't change that. 

 

Sure it can. I don't think Subban's did, but comments made by competitors can definitely change players' focus or motivations, even in the Stanley Cup final.

 

Desire for the Cup, sure, everyone's got it. There's also quest for glory, singular achievements, personal vendettas, wanting to impress the chick(s) you brought to the game, threats of violence from the bookies you'll owe money to if you don't win, religious inspiration, and anything else they can think of to try to get a mental edge over their opponents.

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Crosby was already playing well against Josi. Nothing changed.

 

I have a lot of respect for Laviolette, probably my favourite coach going today. But he should have put Subban against Crosby when it was clear that he was tearing Josi apart. Crosby was getting dummied anytime Subban and Ekholm were on the ice. He should have tried it, even if it might have freed up Malkin and Kessel.

 

Oh well. Onto next year. The Predators got a lot of kids in their system. I wonder how close Carrier and Murphy are to playing on the third pair.

 

(Honestly if you believe in the Crosby motivation narrative it says so... So much about how gullible you are when watching hockey. Just saying, Bergevin loves fans like you.)

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Commandant    606

Dante Fabbro will be the next stud Preds defenceman, but he's likely a 2018-19 arrival (or more). 


Sam Girard needs AHL time, but he's got that small skilled dman like Ryan Ellis, Torey Krug thing going. 

Carrier is close but i see a third pair guy, not a real impact. 


 

Up front, Aberg should be a full-timer next year, Kamenev could be on the team next year too. 

Saros is going to replace Rinne soon. 


They have a nice system.  

 

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DON    28
55 minutes ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

(Honestly if you believe in the Crosby motivation narrative it says so... So much about how gullible you are when watching hockey. Just saying, Bergevin loves fans like you.)

How so?

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hab29RETIRED    167
3 hours ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

Crosby was already playing well against Josi. Nothing changed.

 

I have a lot of respect for Laviolette, probably my favourite coach going today. But he should have put Subban against Crosby when it was clear that he was tearing Josi apart. Crosby was getting dummied anytime Subban and Ekholm were on the ice. He should have tried it, even if it might have freed up Malkin and Kessel.

 

Oh well. Onto next year. The Predators got a lot of kids in their system. I wonder how close Carrier and Murphy are to playing on the third pair.

 

(Honestly if you believe in the Crosby motivation narrative it says so... So much about how gullible you are when watching hockey. Just saying, Bergevin loves fans like you.)

well. the preds themselves see it differently.  Otherwise, why would they suddenly not allow Subban to talk to the media after game 5 - despite protests that were filed by the media?  

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