Weber/Subban trade Sulking Thread

[illWill]

4 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

 

In any case, it is what it is. Weber's a beast just as Subban is; and let's hope Weber can remain in his prime for another decade, just as Subban will.

 

You had me up until this point.

 

I disagree with your statement that PK most certainly will be in his prime for another decade, while merely hoping that Weber can. What is that based on, a couple years difference in age? A crystal ball? How can you be so certain that PK will be as good as he is a decade from now and Weber won't be? 

[Jeff Price (no relation)]

2 minutes ago, illWill said:

 

You had me up until point.

 

I disagree with your statement that PK most certainly will be in his prime for another decade, while merely hoping that Weber can. What is that based on, a couple years difference in age? A crystal ball? How can you be so certain that PK will be as good as he is a decade from now and Weber won't be? 

 

You can't. However, a 3 year difference in age is certainly a decent predictor of a 3 year difference in effective play. YMMV, but all other things being equal, Subban will still be a star in the NHL for another year or two when Weber decides to hang up his skates.

[Commandant]

40 minutes ago, Jeff Price (no relation) said:

 

 

And if he ends up getting 18 goals and 53 points (other than the impossible 35 and 105 he's on pace for) he's still had a great season.

 

And I've not seen anyone doubting Weber's offensive game.

 

Thats never been the issue.... not one bit. 

with the puck on his stick, he's great.... heck even with things like hitting and clearing the crease he's great.

However, an important part of defence is getting the puck out of your own end.  Weber needs a partner who will retrieve a lot of loose pucks, and can skate the puck out of danger and start a breakout, or he will be hemmed into his own end a lot.

What he does, he does very well.
The mobility, and getting loose pucks and transitioning from defence to offence, he needs a partner to handle the heavy lifting in this area, while he handles other areas. 

That doesn't make him bad, but it will be a challenge for the team to find him a partner, when markov and Emelin (limited mobility) are two of our LD, and Beaulieu (seems great on third pair, struggled beside Weber) are the three options. 

[Jeff Price (no relation)]

4 minutes ago, Commandant said:

transitioning from defence to offence

 

 

He seems to compensate for that by being excellent at the short passes up to a free forward. Subban skated it out. Weber, while not slow, lacks Subban's mobility, so he passes it out.

[Scott462]

16 minutes ago, Jeff Price (no relation) said:

 

He seems to compensate for that by being excellent at the short passes up to a free forward. Subban skated it out. Weber, while not slow, lacks Subban's mobility, so he passes it out.

 

I haven't seen Weber struggle in the transition once. He is great a retrieving pucks in his own end and if his partner is covered he is more than capable of skating it out or exiting the zone with a crisp pass to his forwards.

 

People gave Weber a lot of grief about his transition game but from what I have seen he has been just fine.

[Commandant]

25 minutes ago, Jeff Price (no relation) said:

 

He seems to compensate for that by being excellent at the short passes up to a free forward. Subban skated it out. Weber, while not slow, lacks Subban's mobility, so he passes it out.

 

He's very good with the puck on his stick.

 

The issue is mostly about his ability to retrieve loose pucks in his own end and get it out. 

 

Once the puck is on his stick he's a good passer, and we have forwards who can lug the puck up the ice ( a partner who can also lug the puck would also help him). 

[illWill]

25 minutes ago, Jeff Price (no relation) said:

 

He seems to compensate for that by being excellent at the short passes up to a free forward. Subban skated it out. Weber, while not slow, lacks Subban's mobility, so he passes it out.

 

I am finding the team much faster because of this. The forwards are full steam ahead and aren't waiting in limbo for a pass from a rushing defenseman. Passes have and always will be faster than skating

[Commandant]

7 minutes ago, Scott462 said:

 

I haven't seen Weber struggle in the transition once. He is great a retrieving pucks in his own end and if his partner is covered he is more than capable of skating it out or exiting the zone with a crisp pass to his forwards.

 

People gave Weber a lot of grief about his transition game but from what I have seen he has been just fine.

 

He is not "great at retrieving pucks in his own end"..... this is clearly the biggest weakness in his game, by any measure both statistically and by the eye test. 

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

2 hours ago, illWill said:

 

I am finding the team much faster because of this. The forwards are full steam ahead and aren't waiting in limbo for a pass from a rushing defenseman. Passes have and always will be faster than skating

 

Actually, I remember reading someplace that this was Bergevin's main 'hockey' rationale for the trade. He doesn't like rushing defencemen, for just the reason you state.

 

The primary reason for angst about Weber is not his performance at age 31, it's what it'll be at (say) age 36 after he's lost a step. How will he be at 'retrieving the puck in his own zone' at that point? After all, he's on the books for another decade at a massive cap hit. The Trade's ultimate merits/demerits won't be decided until the two players' respective stories are told. That's why it's so ludicrous to do this game-by-game comparison in year one of what is effectively a deal that will ramify for the next 10 years.

[DON]

10 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Actually, I remember reading someplace that this was Bergevin's main 'hockey' rationale for the trade. He doesn't like rushing defencemen, for just the reason you state.

Sorry to burst your bubble; but I highly doubt Bergevin or Therrien (or any coach in the NHL) would hate having a Karlsson lugging puck up the ice.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

1 hour ago, DON said:

Sorry to burst your bubble; but I highly doubt Bergevin or Therrien (or any coach in the NHL) would hate having a Karlsson lugging puck up the ice.

 

I quite disagree. MT would see Karlsson as a high-risk 'problem' who has to be fixed. Plodders like MT simply do not know what to do with talent like that other than try to cram it into a System. Admittedly, it helps that Karlsson doesn't do crazy things, like being too effusive in celebrating when he scores, or low-fiving his goalie after wins, or donating $10 mil to a local hospital without clearing it with the team brass first...you know, terrible crimes that prove you are Not A Team Player.

[illWill]

1 hour ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

 

The primary reason for angst about Weber is not his performance at age 31, it's what it'll be at (say) age 36 after he's lost a step. How will he be at 'retrieving the puck in his own zone' at that point? After all, he's on the books for another decade at a massive cap hit. The Trade's ultimate merits/demerits won't be decided until the two players' respective stories are told. That's why it's so ludicrous to do this game-by-game comparison in year one of what is effectively a deal that will ramify for the next 10 years.

 

I definitely agree that we need to see how things play out much more to really get a grasp of the trade implications. The way I see it, is that management has determined that this group has a better chance of winning it all with Weber in the short term. They arent very concerned 5 or 6 years from now and why would they? Odds are that neither will be around to see the end of their contracts. Their job is to ice the best team possible and if the Habs win the cup in the next couple years they will be gods in Montreal. 

 

Personally I think Weber plays till around 38 before he hangs them up. I don't envision him playing if he isn't a valuable part of the team, especially because of the way his contract is structured. He is the true definition of a team player. So the Habs have about 7 solid Weber years left imo, and that's an eternity in the hockey world. I believe his hockey I.Q, intangibles, physicality and shot will render him very useful for years to come. I don't really get the point of worrying about something so far away

[DON]

3 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

I quite disagree. MT would see Karlsson as a high-risk 'problem' who has to be fixed. Plodders like MT simply do not know what to do with talent like that other than try to cram it into a System. Admittedly, it helps that Karlsson doesn't do crazy things, like being too effusive in celebrating when he scores, or low-fiving his goalie after wins, or donating $10 mil to a local hospital without clearing it with the team brass first...you know, terrible crimes that prove you are Not A Team Player.

Feel better getting that off your chest...it is quite original stuff, do tell us more.

[xXx..CK..xXx]

I still think there's this mystical aura surrounding Subban. Both in a positive as well as a negative way. I've actually caught some of the Preds games this season and Subban's playing the same way he did in Montreal. Yes, it's only been a few games but he's not flying around the ice from end to end like everyone seems to always state he would be able to do were he to be "freed up" by the coaching staff. Frankly, I see him sending quick outlet passes to the wingers in the defensive zone more than ever this season. Is he trying to be even too much of a team player early on? Perhaps. Maybe he trusts Nashville's forwards more. He has looked good on the PP. 

 

I also completely disagree about Subban and his undoubted longevity. When Subban was in the World Juniors for Canada, he was my favorite player on a stacked team. I loved his blistering speed when compared to anyone else. Another player that comes to mind with that type of speed in the same tournament was Stamkos. I saw something in both of them.  With that being said, over only the past couple of seasons, I've seen Subban regress in this specific area. He used to be able to turn the puck over and then beat 5 players back in order to be the first player to retrieve a loose puck. Even now, let alone in 10 years, sometimes I see him dogging it back to the defensive zone after a turnover. The only reason it stands out to me is because I remember how amazing he was at that very specific thing; Attempting an amazing play with the worst outcome possible being him recovering the puck himself after turning it over. A half hearted back check never happened. 

 

I don't pretend to know what comes for either of them that far down the road but we shouldn't act like Subban will never regress either. It's going to happen and it could honestly happen at any time. I give him 5 years more before being one injury away from being a changed player and of course, the same can be said for anyone of the same age. Other than that, there are 38 year olds who play like they are 30 and there are 35 year olds who play like they are 40. I'll concede that just because of their physical age, one is likely to regress quicker than the other but with some uncertainty there, I find it a very specific reason to even dislike the trade. 

[Meller93]

18 hours ago, Jeff Price (no relation) said:

 

 

And if he ends up getting 18 goals and 53 points (other than the impossible 35 and 105 he's on pace for) he's still had a great season.

Yes absolutely. Wouldn't be surprised to see a 60 point season even

[Meller93]

18 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Actually, I remember reading someplace that this was Bergevin's main 'hockey' rationale for the trade. He doesn't like rushing defencemen, for just the reason you state.

 

The primary reason for angst about Weber is not his performance at age 31, it's what it'll be at (say) age 36 after he's lost a step. How will he be at 'retrieving the puck in his own zone' at that point? After all, he's on the books for another decade at a massive cap hit. The Trade's ultimate merits/demerits won't be decided until the two players' respective stories are told. That's why it's so ludicrous to do this game-by-game comparison in year one of what is effectively a deal that will ramify for the next 10 years.

Aye sir, well said

[Meller93]

10 hours ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

I still think there's this mystical aura surrounding Subban. Both in a positive as well as a negative way. I've actually caught some of the Preds games this season and Subban's playing the same way he did in Montreal. Yes, it's only been a few games but he's not flying around the ice from end to end like everyone seems to always state he would be able to do were he to be "freed up" by the coaching staff. Frankly, I see him sending quick outlet passes to the wingers in the defensive zone more than ever this season. Is he trying to be even too much of a team player early on? Perhaps. Maybe he trusts Nashville's forwards more. He has looked good on the PP. 

 

I also completely disagree about Subban and his undoubted longevity. When Subban was in the World Juniors for Canada, he was my favorite player on a stacked team. I loved his blistering speed when compared to anyone else. 

 

Hmm, I never found Subban to be fast. An exceptional skater, yes. Perhaps the best lateral movement in the league even. But average speed. He excelled when winding, dipsy-doodling.

 

Stamkos hasn't quite been the same since he broke his leg it seems. Doing well this year though so far. Also forwards tend to peak a couple years before Defenceman, so it's somewhat apples to oranges here. 

[xXx..CK..xXx]

5 hours ago, Meller93 said:

 

Hmm, I never found Subban to be fast. An exceptional skater, yes. Perhaps the best lateral movement in the league even. But average speed. He excelled when winding, dipsy-doodling.

 

Stamkos hasn't quite been the same since he broke his leg it seems. Doing well this year though so far. Also forwards tend to peak a couple years before Defenceman, so it's somewhat apples to oranges here. 

When he was playing in the World Juniors tournament, I thought his speed was above the rest. I guess the reason I say speed (hustle) is because he could manage to be the first one up the ice as well as the first man back. I remember that still being the case in his first few seasons of playing with the Habs. Maybe I did overrate his speed because he was never the fastest player on the Habs but I've always felt like his stride was one of his strengths and that goes away with age no doubt as does the will to hustle full steam after every errant pass that leads to a turnover. 

 

I'm not comparing Stamkos to Subban whatsoever, I was just stating that I saw something in both of them early on and in my opinion they were both exceptional skaters at an early age. 

 

Stamkos was a first overall pick whereas Subban was a second rounder so that right there is apples to oranges. Doesn't change the fact that even with a player like Eberle on the team doing magical things for Canada, Subban was still my favorite player on the team and a lot of it was for the reason I've stated here. Subban is still great but I've seen that specific area regress already if I'm being completely honest and I think it's an important element to his game. As you get older in sports though, you find a way to adapt your strengths to the body you've been given and I'm sure he'll do just that. 

[Link67]

On 27/10/2016 at 2:54 PM, illWill said:

 

I am finding the team much faster because of this. The forwards are full steam ahead and aren't waiting in limbo for a pass from a rushing defenseman. Passes have and always will be faster than skating

 

On 27/10/2016 at 5:53 PM, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Actually, I remember reading someplace that this was Bergevin's main 'hockey' rationale for the trade. He doesn't like rushing defencemen, for just the reason you state.

 

The primary reason for angst about Weber is not his performance at age 31, it's what it'll be at (say) age 36 after he's lost a step. How will he be at 'retrieving the puck in his own zone' at that point? After all, he's on the books for another decade at a massive cap hit. The Trade's ultimate merits/demerits won't be decided until the two players' respective stories are told. That's why it's so ludicrous to do this game-by-game comparison in year one of what is effectively a deal that will ramify for the next 10 years.

 

I agree with the first statement 100% and it has to be the aspect o notice most, while also looking like the aspect of Subban's game that didnt always fit with how the team plays.

 

However the second statment i have some issues with. By the time Weber reaches 36 he will still look like a better version of Markov we see right now. This is simply because even in their prime, neither guy's main weapon is speed. that is always the thing that slips away with age for a hockey player. Markov built his game around vision, smarts, and tremendous play making capabilities. all things we still see at age 37, he is simply slower than he was when he was 30. Weber builds his game around good quick passes, strength, physicality and a big shot. when he is 36 he will still hold all of these qualities, he will simply be a little less mobile and require a very mobile defence partner to help him remain very effective as petry does with markov now.

 

The other aspect no one considers in the long term aspect is, we know what weber will make the rest of his career cap wise. Subban will need another contract when he is 33, and if he remains an elite defenceman the next 5 years, which we all seem to suggest. does anyone really think he will make a dime less than he makes right now come that time? what if his next contract goes to 10mill for a 5 year term or more? does a 38 year old subban making atleast 10 mill make you feel comfortable? because one guy in all this who DOES build his game around mobility is PK. once that starts to slip he will show a bigger drop off in his game because he relies much more heavily on that aspect to make him elite than Weber ever did.

[bbp]

On 10/27/2016 at 11:20 AM, Commandant said:

 

 

Thats never been the issue.... not one bit. 

with the puck on his stick, he's great.... heck even with things like hitting and clearing the crease he's great.

However, an important part of defence is getting the puck out of your own end.  Weber needs a partner who will retrieve a lot of loose pucks, and can skate the puck out of danger and start a breakout, or he will be hemmed into his own end a lot.

What he does, he does very well.
The mobility, and getting loose pucks and transitioning from defence to offence, he needs a partner to handle the heavy lifting in this area, while he handles other areas. 

That doesn't make him bad, but it will be a challenge for the team to find him a partner, when markov and Emelin (limited mobility) are two of our LD, and Beaulieu (seems great on third pair, struggled beside Weber) are the three options. 

preach

[johnnyhasbeen]

We gave up one of the most popular popular with the fans players on the team. I loved watching him as much as anyone did. What we got in return is a better defensive defenceman with an equal point output. He will never be as charismatic or seen in the media as PK was, but on the ice he is proving to be a stud. His numbers are amazing, his control of the play is great. He is definitely not, as others state, a problem in his own end. He does not have a fast stride but like Chara covers the ice very quickly due to his size giving him a big stride. Therefore you don't see him caught up ice of beaten by faster players. 

This thread is well named as there are so many who continue to whine about a trade that is proving to be a huge success. The trade was made for now not 8 years down the road when we no longer have a prime Carey Price. This is our cup window, not 8 years down the road. Accept that fact and you will come to like the trade. 

Last year when Carey went down somehow the team totally fell apart. We were lacking leadership in the locker room IMO. Nobody that I know of on this forum are privy to what goes on in there but I have to say we should not have been as bad as we were without Price. This team has the ability to compete regardless of which NHL goalie is in the net. Price does put us over the top but we still should have been a playoff team. This move may easily have addressed that issue as well. That of course is speculation but something was obviously wrong in that room for the past few seasons. We all spoke of it on here. Hopefully those theories are not needed anymore and we continue to dominate on the ice.

Glad to have Shea here. Didn't get the trade myself at first. Hated it in fact. Now I remember why I am only an armchair GM. Good trade.

 

[Commandant]

8 hours ago, Link67 said:

 

 

I agree with the first statement 100% and it has to be the aspect o notice most, while also looking like the aspect of Subban's game that didnt always fit with how the team plays.

 

However the second statment i have some issues with. By the time Weber reaches 36 he will still look like a better version of Markov we see right now. This is simply because even in their prime, neither guy's main weapon is speed. that is always the thing that slips away with age for a hockey player. Markov built his game around vision, smarts, and tremendous play making capabilities. all things we still see at age 37, he is simply slower than he was when he was 30. Weber builds his game around good quick passes, strength, physicality and a big shot. when he is 36 he will still hold all of these qualities, he will simply be a little less mobile and require a very mobile defence partner to help him remain very effective as petry does with markov now.

 

The other aspect no one considers in the long term aspect is, we know what weber will make the rest of his career cap wise. Subban will need another contract when he is 33, and if he remains an elite defenceman the next 5 years, which we all seem to suggest. does anyone really think he will make a dime less than he makes right now come that time? what if his next contract goes to 10mill for a 5 year term or more? does a 38 year old subban making atleast 10 mill make you feel comfortable? because one guy in all this who DOES build his game around mobility is PK. once that starts to slip he will show a bigger drop off in his game because he relies much more heavily on that aspect to make him elite than Weber ever did.

 

Here is the thing though, Weber relies on his physicality in large part, Markov doesn't.

 

We've seen with big and physical defencemen that the drop off is severe.

 

This idea that the puck moving defencemen lose a step and drop off more quickly than the big physical dman isn't really seen in the results.  Chara lasted longer than most (and he's also a physical freak that others don't really compare to), but even now we are seeing him really struggle. 

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

49 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

Here is the thing though, Weber relies on his physicality in large part, Markov doesn't.

 

We've seen with big and physical defencemen that the drop off is severe.

 

This idea that the puck moving defencemen lose a step and drop off more quickly than the big physical dman isn't really seen in the results.  Chara lasted longer than most (and he's also a physical freak that others don't really compare to), but even now we are seeing him really struggle. 

 

Yeah...the thing with not being particularly quick is that, if you DO lose a step, you are suddenly skating in cement. I agree that a player who relies entirely on their speed is up the creek when their speed drops off, but guys like Subban (or the much greater Nik Lidstrom) are not one-dimensional speedsters like Russ Courtnall; they have a range of assets that they bring and will continue to make them effective even after the speed declines somewhat. (What we can say is that Subban will have to adjust his game; he will no longer be able to spin-a-rama his way out of jams and will have to simplify his game in just the way that the Therriens of the world have been calling upon him to do since he was a rookie). But if you're a guy whose quickness is merely "acceptable," and you lose that, then you are going to struggle to get yourself in a position where your other attributes can be deployed.

 

This is, I believe, the line of thinking that leads people like myself to be concerned about a drop-off in Weber. Weber is actually a very powerful skater once he gets his stride going. But when he loses his first step, that's when we're going to see the kind of struggling that even the mighty (and loathsome) Chara has succumbed to in recent years.

 

This is why I believe a Subban, barring injury, can continue to star in the NHL for another decade. I don't foresee the same for Weber.

 

That said, it's not really worth worrying about RIGHT NOW. It's a concern for down the road.

[DON]

49 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

Here is the thing though, Weber relies on his physicality in large part, Markov doesn't.

 

We've seen with big and physical defencemen that the drop off is severe.

 

This idea that the puck moving defencemen lose a step and drop off more quickly than the big physical dman isn't really seen in the results.  Chara lasted longer than most (and he's also a physical freak that others don't really compare to), but even now we are seeing him really struggle. 

Even now? He is only friggin 39, what do you expect, him to have gained a step and he is still #1 d-man on Boston (which happily is not saying much I know but), paired with another rookie and he/Carlo both are +5 with rest all being -. 

[DON]

23 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

This is, I believe, the line of thinking that leads people like myself to be concerned about a drop-off in Weber.

Luckily most are as morose as that about Weber and are actually enjoying Habs hockey.