The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 2 minutes ago, Commandant said: The thing is Rinne got run many times in Nashville and Weber didnt' stop it. The fact is that deterrence really doesn't work, not in 2017. You have guys on million dollar contracts, and if you don't go to the net hard, you wont be in the NHL very long. Whats a punch in the face stop really? Commandant, stop. You are disrupting the Myth of SuperLeader Weber. He is axiomatically the solution to all this team's problems, as our performance over the past 40 games irrefutably shows. Myself, I've wondered at times whether Super Leader is actually happy here. Then again, that might be excuse making...and certainly stoic joylessness is what the team needed, after all. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 I was talking more about Benn, Watching some Nashville games over the past few years, i saw Weber go after some people, more in a Pronger way than fighting them. The habs need to toughen up, they are so easy to play against. You need tough D to protect your goalie, It deters people from running your goalie, I think it still does to a point, not like the 70 or 80's granted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neech Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 Kinda feel like Pateryn never got a fair shake and was ultimately let go for dumb reasons. If Benn is better than him then fine, and if he can replace Emelin as Weber's partner that's huge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 14 minutes ago, Neech said: Kinda feel like Pateryn never got a fair shake and was ultimately let go for dumb reasons. If Benn is better than him then fine, and if he can replace Emelin as Weber's partner that's huge. I liked Pateryn's game just fine. Still, while I'm the first to denounce management for trading away players based on non-hockey-related factors, I really don't think there is room for anti-French bigots in the dressing room of the Montreal Canadiens. Granted, he and his wife may have different opinions on the question, but I find it hard to believe that her tweet did not reflect table-talk in the Pateryn household. If that's so, then good riddance, and we got a comparable player back, so it's all good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illWill Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 2 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said: Commandant, stop. You are disrupting the Myth of SuperLeader Weber. He is axiomatically the solution to all this team's problems, as our performance over the past 40 games irrefutably shows. Myself, I've wondered at times whether Super Leader is actually happy here. Then again, that might be excuse making...and certainly stoic joylessness is what the team needed, after all. By responding in this type of fashion, you are essentially losing any credibility to any rational debate of your opinion. We all get it, you didn't like the trade. Myth of the super leader who was sent here to save the disarray that is the Montreal Canadiens is an exaggeration to say the least. It was a hockey trade with pros and cons for both teams, and the fact that it has been debated to death by the entire hockey world not just us, just goes to show you that there are no clear winners or losers at this point. And constantly bringing up the trade in non trade related discussions basically just comes across as spam 1 hour ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said: I liked Pateryn's game just fine. Still, while I'm the first to denounce management for trading away players based on non-hockey-related factors, I really don't think there is room for anti-French bigots in the dressing room of the Montreal Canadiens. Granted, he and his wife may have different opinions on the question, but I find it hard to believe that her tweet did not reflect table-talk in the Pateryn household. If that's so, then good riddance, and we got a comparable player back, so it's all good. I wonder if you would have the same opinion if it was Subban's wife who tweeted out the same things. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCHabnut Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 2 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said: Commandant, stop. You are disrupting the Myth of SuperLeader Weber. He is axiomatically the solution to all this team's problems, as our performance over the past 40 games irrefutably shows. Myself, I've wondered at times whether Super Leader is actually happy here. Then again, that might be excuse making...and certainly stoic joylessness is what the team needed, after all. They went from leading the odds in the Matthews sweepstakes to leading their division. I like that leadership. Haha. Chara did just fine under Julien's watch. I suspect Weber will be just fine for years to come. I will miss Subban's puck moving abilities, and I often wish he was on the team because his skillset is sorely missed, but I'm ready to move on. Endlessly droning on about it isn't going to reverse it. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 50 minutes ago, illWill said: By responding in this type of fashion, you are essentially losing any credibility to any rational debate of your opinion. We all get it, you didn't like the trade. Myth of the super leader who was sent here to save the disarray that is the Montreal Canadiens is an exaggeration to say the least. It was a hockey trade with pros and cons for both teams, and the fact that it has been debated to death by the entire hockey world not just us, just goes to show you that there are no clear winners or losers at this point. And constantly bringing up the trade in non trade related discussions basically just comes across as spam I wonder if you would have the same opinion if it was Subban's wife who tweeted out the same things. I'd be more upset about it if this had been the case - because it would have jeopardized Subban's position on the Habs, and perhaps forced a trade of a massive asset. By contrast, Pateryn is easily replaceable. But no, I stand by the argument that anti-French bigots are one thing that the Habs can't tolerate. As for 'getting over' the trade, I don't really understand the logic. If you think a trade is bad, you don't 'get over it' until it stops ramifying for your team - if then. This trade is certainly not a disaster on the scale of Chelios or Roy or McDonagh, but it would seem odd in retrospect to be telling fans to 'get over' those deals. 'Thibault is your goalie now! Get behind him and stop complaining!' So if someone sincerely thinks the Weber trade was a significant mistake, they're no more likely to get over it than they are to get over any other serious mistake by their team. There's no statute of limitations on the aggravation, any more than there is on the satisfactions we take in the team's triumphs. (By that measure, I'm not 'over' seeing them win the 1993 Cup in the Forum, either). Besides, my comment above (on Weber's excellence as 'axiomatic') was not directly a comment on the trade at all. It was more of a comment on the way Weber's defenders have tended to rely on myths and reputation rather than what he has actually done for most of this season. From about the 20 game mark, he has been a good #1 defenceman and no more than that. Weber is a sacred cow for many Habs fans; and I believe this is because the consequences of his NOT living up to his reputation are too demoralizing to face. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 3 hours ago, Neech said: Kinda feel like Pateryn never got a fair shake and was ultimately let go for dumb reasons. If Benn is better than him then fine, and if he can replace Emelin as Weber's partner that's huge. He wont be a 1st pairing guy. He wasn't on Dallas and their defense sucks, so he would move up on the Habs, he is a #5 guy who is good on the PK and hopefully will help lower Markov's PK icetime. Am quite curious, exactly what dumb reasons was Pateryn traded for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illWill Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 56 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said: I'd be more upset about it if this had been the case - because it would have jeopardized Subban's position on the Habs, and perhaps forced a trade of a massive asset. By contrast, Pateryn is easily replaceable. But no, I stand by the argument that anti-French bigots are one thing that the Habs can't tolerate. I agree that there is justification for trading a player/wife for being a bigot, especially in a market like Montreal. However, my point was that you contradicted yourself by saying it's okay to trade a player for off ice issues like that, but aren't on board to trade a player for off ice issues like a guy who doesn't fit the description of who the organization wants to represent them. They are sort of the same thing. And I'm not even saying that's the reason Subban got traded, because I believe it was a hockey trade. As for 'getting over' the trade, I don't really understand the logic. If you think a trade is bad, you don't 'get over it' until it stops ramifying for your team - if then. This trade is certainly not a disaster on the scale of Chelios or Roy or McDonagh, but it would seem odd in retrospect to be telling fans to 'get over' those deals. 'Thibault is your goalie now! Get behind him and stop complaining!' So if someone sincerely thinks the Weber trade was a significant mistake, they're no more likely to get over it than they are to get over any other serious mistake by their team. There's no statute of limitations on the aggravation, any more than there is on the satisfactions of the team's triumphs. I can understand this point, my mother was the reason I watched the Habs, but Patrick Roy was the reason I loved the Habs. When he got traded I gave up on hockey all together, it still gets to me. But that doesn't mean bringing it up in every conversation has any positive effect on the current discussion. It's like if your dog died and then every time you're out with your friends you talk about the death of your dog. There comes a point when your friends either tell you to get over it or just stop hanging out with you. Quote Besides, my comment above (on Weber's excellence as 'axiomatic') was not directly a comment on the trade at all. It was more of a comment on the way Weber's defenders have tended to rely on myths and reputation rather than what he has actually done for most of this season. From about the 20 game mark, he has been a good #1 defenceman and no more than that. Weber is a sacred cow for many Habs fans; and I believe this is because the consequences of his NOT living up to his reputation are too demoralizing to face. It would definitely suck as a Habs fan to see Weber play bad long term. But If I would have asked you before the season started if you thought that the 9th worst team in the league last year would be leading the Atlantic after 60 games, and Weber would be 3rd in Hab scoring? Wouldn't that be great and you'd be excited for that? Well that's were we are right now. You can break games and bunches of games down however you want, but looking at the season as a whole, I'd say we are in a pretty good spot right now considering where we came from. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 illWill, I don't 'bring it up all the time.' I just pipe in when the subject is either Weber or Subban; rarely, since my initial blasts on the subject right after the trade was made, have I initiated the discussion of it. Most of my posts have been on other things. But lately, with Habs29 taking potshots which quite accurately point out that the team has looked rudderless for half a season, and Commandant's point about the myth of Weber protecting Price above, sure, I've chimed in. I think there is so much sensitivity around this - and my own outrage to the trade was so fervent - that ANY reference to Weber or Subban, even incidental, raises people's hackles. I would deny, however, that I am continually going on and on about it. I like your last line about "considering where we came from" because it may help to clarify a difference between us. My frame of reference is not last season, when Price was hurt and the team had no goaltending, and therefore no chance. It's 2014-15. This team is in no way improved relative to that one, which went 50-22-10 and got rave reviews for its internal chemistry. When I do think about the trade, it's with that in mind. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 Montreal tried to sell people they were getting Chris Pronger when they got Rob Blake after his good years in LA. Montreal doesn't have the powerhouse club Colorado had to mask his decline in the first years. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDriveFor25 Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 Enough about Weber. He was overjoyed when Pacs scored last night to tie it and had a huge smile when Chucky scored in OT. He's happier when the Habs are winning. I'm sick of hearing about the trade, there are so many factors besides Weber's on ice performance vs PKs on ice performance. Support the team!! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illWill Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 1 hour ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said: I like your last line about "considering where we came from" because it may help to clarify a difference between us. My frame of reference is not last season, when Price was hurt and the team had no goaltending, and therefore no chance. It's 2014-15. This team is in no way improved relative to that one, which went 50-22-10 and got rave reviews for its internal chemistry. When I do think about the trade, it's with that in mind. It's fine if you want to compare a team of two seasons ago rather than the more accurate one of last season, but I don't understand how you can disregard that THIS team is currently 1st in their division and Weber is 3rd in team scoring. What is wrong with that? We are 60 games in, not 40 past the first 20. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 38 minutes ago, TheDriveFor25 said: Support the team!! I am supporting the team the same way I support my friend in a bad relationship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 45 minutes ago, illWill said: It's fine if you want to compare a team of two seasons ago rather than the more accurate one of last season, but I don't understand how you can disregard that THIS team is currently 1st in their division and Weber is 3rd in team scoring. What is wrong with that? We are 60 games in, not 40 past the first 20. Too much logic!!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 1 hour ago, TheDriveFor25 said: Enough about Weber. He was overjoyed when Pacs scored last night to tie it and had a huge smile when Chucky scored in OT. He's happier when the Habs are winning. I'm sick of hearing about the trade, there are so many factors besides Weber's on ice performance vs PKs on ice performance. Support the team!! Supporting the team doesnt mean they are immune from criticism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 1 hour ago, illWill said: It's fine if you want to compare a team of two seasons ago rather than the more accurate one of last season, but I don't understand how you can disregard that THIS team is currently 1st in their division and Weber is 3rd in team scoring. What is wrong with that? We are 60 games in, not 40 past the first 20. I don't see the 'logic' in saying last season is a 'more accurate' indicator of this team - as though missing our franchise player is somehow definitive; the more appropriate comparators are 'Habs with Price and Subban' versus 'Habs with Price and Weber,' not 'Habs without Price and with Subban' versus 'Habs with Price and Weber.' Nor do I deny that this team remains in 1st despite being mediocre for 45 games. As for Weber, well, first of all, being third on scoring on this team isn't saying a whole lot, but second, I never said Weber stinks (although he hasn't been anything special for 45 games now). What I say is that PK is better, and (repeatedly) that the trade solved zero problems while creating at least one major new one. Just telling me that 'Weber is a good player' in no way overrides the fact that it was a dumb trade. Anyway, we've both said our piece here. For the purposes of this thread, I agree we should move on. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 1 hour ago, illWill said: It's fine if you want to compare a team of two seasons ago rather than the more accurate one of last season, but I don't understand how you can disregard that THIS team is currently 1st in their division and Weber is 3rd in team scoring. What is wrong with that? We are 60 games in, not 40 past the first 20. Yeah. Nothing wrong with this team. Teams fire their head coach of several years when things are going great all the time. First place teams going a full month without a regulation win is common. In case you missed it, all the people talking Cup in October and November after very quiet and now people are talking about if the Habs even make the playoffs. I personally think they will but I don't see them getting further than the 14-15 squad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illWill Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 2 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said: I don't see the 'logic' in saying last season is a 'more accurate' indicator of this team - as though missing our franchise player is somehow definitive; the more appropriate comparators are 'Habs with Price and Subban' versus 'Habs with Price and Weber,' not 'Habs without Price and with Subban' versus 'Habs with Price and Weber.' Nor do I deny that this team remains in 1st despite being mediocre for 45 games. As for Weber, well, first of all, being third on scoring on this team isn't saying a whole lot, but second, I never said Weber stinks (although he hasn't been anything special for 45 games now). What I say is that PK is better, and (repeatedly) that the trade solved zero problems while creating at least one major new one. Just telling me that 'Weber is a good player' in no way overrides the fact that it was a dumb trade. Anyway, we've both said our piece here. For the purposes of this thread, I agree we should move on. I can't let that be the last comment on the matter here. A team is comprised of more than just two star players like Price and Subban. That's the issue that perhaps you are missing here. Even if I agreed that Subban is a better player it doesn't mean that he is necessarily a better fit for the team, for reasons explained a million times in the other thread. By my calculations there were 36 players that suited up for that 2014-15 team that you speak of, and only 15 of them have played for the team this season. Whereas the team last year had 45 players suit up and there are 23 of those players that have played this season. I just don't understand how a team with fewer players than two years ago is a better comparable than a team that has more players from last season, with or without Price. 2 hours ago, Machine of Loving Grace said: Yeah. Nothing wrong with this team. Teams fire their head coach of several years when things are going great all the time. First place teams going a full month without a regulation win is common. In case you missed it, all the people talking Cup in October and November after very quiet and now people are talking about if the Habs even make the playoffs. I personally think they will but I don't see them getting further than the 14-15 squad. I didn't read the part where anybody said it's common for a coach to get fired or not have a regulation win for a month. So if this Habs team doesn't make it further than the 14-15 squad, that is the direct result of the big blockbuster trade in the summer? People were talking Cup into November and rightfully so, I don't get your point. I still like the Habs in a 7 game series against anyone in the Atlantic. And then I think it's integral what the matchup would be after that, as well as other factors that go into a series. Obviously they have to start to play better or they will struggle to make the playoffs, but as they proved already this season, they can get hot and do some damage against anybody. But yes, I'd like nothing more than to talk about current Habs, not former ones. Criticism of management is one thing and derailing a bunch of conversations is another Edit: With the Predators coming into Montreal on Thursday, it's gonna be hard not to talk about it 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDriveFor25 Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 1 hour ago, Commandant said: Supporting the team doesnt mean they are immune from criticism. Then criticize and move on. Harping on it over and over isn't criticism, it's whining. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 4 hours ago, TheDriveFor25 said: Then criticize and move on. Harping on it over and over isn't criticism, it's whining. The only whining i see, is a few people who complain (and give downvotes) cause they don't like certain types of subject matter. Not just you, but there are a few here. As soon as anyone mentions Subban, its down vote city, and then people telling them what they can or can't talk about. Its a message board. If you don't like the topic of the discussion... don't read it Edit; Right on queue with the -1 too... lol. Taking away fake internet points isn't going to stop people talking about Subban. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott462 Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 I like him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDriveFor25 Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 I never give "downvotes." I just think the time for criticizing that trade has come and gone. Weber's a beast. Move on. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLassister Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 On 2014-11-12 at 6:06 PM, JoeLassister said: Stop with Pateryn. This guy will never play more than a handfull of games with the Habs. He has no ceiling, he reached them already. If this was EA Sports NHL, we'd be looking at a 70-75-75 player. AHL material. Pure multi-injuries backup. Now, if Patery wants to prove me wrong, then be my guest Greg. Well... I was not THAT far off 2 years ago. He did make 3rd pairing for the Habs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 7 hours ago, TheDriveFor25 said: I never give "downvotes."I just think the time for criticizing that trade has come and gone. Weber's a beast. Move on. Didn't say it was you... I don't know who it is cause it doesn't show... but anyone who criticizes the Weber Subban trade automatically ends up at a -2 or 3. Weber is very good. Subban is better (and is now outscoring him in PPG). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.