Jump to content

If YOU were owner of the HABS


Recommended Posts

9 hours ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

If that's his worst trade, he's done a pretty good job when you think about it. 

 

The Subban trade is the most controversial since (probably) Cammalleri for Bourque and that trade was done right at the end of Gauthier's temporary reign.

 

I still think the former was a much worse trade but it's still too early to fully judge the more recent one.

 

I'm not going there again, but nothing has changed my view that the trade has done nothing to make us better in any discernable way, while weakening us in others. It was done to please Therrien. Nuff said.

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 58
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

For better or for worse I think the team plays a more structured game with less individual play; kind of like a soccer team. The trade had hockey reasons to them as well and whether or not they've ben

So this has degenerated into a Subban vs Weber thread again I see. so I wade in. Subban is great, but to say he drove transition game is a crock, his constant whirly dirvish spins and rushes

Last year they didn't have radulov.   if they had a dman who could help the transition, they would be much better.  

11 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

:lol: Yeah, even I'm not that moronic.

 

*ducks to escape the brick thrown by DON*

A Brick? I wouldn't do that...pool balls are a lot more accurate.:P

Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

I'm not going there again, but nothing has changed my view that the trade has done nothing to make us better in any discernable way, while weakening us in others. It was done to please Therrien. Nuff said.

I like to imagine how it went when Bergevin had all of his best brains in the room to discuss what they needed to do for the next season.

 

Bergevin: So what's the team need?

Dudley: The club is weak down the middle and needs a top four left handed defenceman. It also needs an answer to the top six right wing question you keep filling with temporary solutions.

Bergevin: Oh don't worry about that. We got this guy from Russia coming in.

Therrien: Didn't we try that?

Bergevin: No no this guy is actually good. Really good. I'm still only giving him a one year deal so he can prove himself.

Dudley: Oh great. Another temporary solution. Well what about centre?

Therrien: We got Davey and Pleky. We good.

Dudley: We good?

Bergevin: I trust my coach. Okay so what else did you say? We need a new number one defenceman?

Dudley: No no Subban is fine. We need a left handed top four to replace Andrei eventually.

Therrien: No we don't. I'll just play Alex Emelin in the top spot. It'll work fine. We need a new number one defenceman though.

Bergevin: I like where Michel is coming from. Someone like Shea Weber, but cheaper since I doubt we can get Shea Weber.

Therrien: Don't doubt yourself Marc.

Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

I'm not going there again, but nothing has changed my view that the trade has done nothing to make us better in any discernable way, while weakening us in others. It was done to please Therrien. Nuff said.

For better or for worse I think the team plays a more structured game with less individual play; kind of like a soccer team. The trade had hockey reasons to them as well and whether or not they've benefited us and will continue to benefit us is the only debate. I hated the trade the very moment I heard it but to say the team isn't different as a result of the trade isn't being honest. 

 

Furthermore, to say that the trade has weakened us in areas while not improving us in any other area is simply not an accurate assessment considering Subban and Weber are completely different types of players. You've stated before that Weber is a good player so Subban would have to be superior in every aspect of Weber's strengths for the move to have not made any positive impact. Weber has 16 goals and that has had a positive impact because he is a better goal scorer than Subban. There are other areas as well but it's all really besides the point. 

 

I for one enjoyed Subban's play for most of his career. I'm also all for entertainment. I couldn't keep my head up for much of the Carolina game tonight as it was a snoozefest. With that being said, defense is one area of the team where I don't need excitement to fully enjoy a game. I'm fine with having a steady, stay at home defensemen who is a "presence"(you know why? Because he's actually present in his position) than be excited in the manner they help create offense. 

 

It's an element I can see why people miss, but it's not the most important element of a defensive core and so I've grown to adjust and don't mind the difference. Our offense on the other hand, could use some help.

  • Upvote 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Commandant said:

 

This team doesn't score goals and the lack of a transition game is a major reason why. 

 

Montreal scores 2.68 goals per game this season. Last season they scored 2.63

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, illWill said:

 

Montreal scores 2.68 goals per game this season. Last season they scored 2.63

Last year they didn't have radulov.

 

if they had a dman who could help the transition, they would be much better.  

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, illWill said:

 

Montreal scores 2.68 goals per game this season. Last season they scored 2.63

 

Its due to Galchenyuk being a better player, shaw being an upgrade on Eller, Radulov being added, Byron exploding offensively... all those things have helped mitigate what is loss.  Even with those things we are barely better. 

 

Now Max is at his usual pace, which is great, but one thing that is missing from his game is his breakaways.  He'd usually score about 10 or so a year that way.  They've dried up (though he's scored a lot cause Radulov being a playmaker in the zone helps him.  Imagine he had both. 

 

How many breakaways did Max Pacioretty get the last several seasons?
How many has he gotten this year? 
How many times does he get in on a 2 on 1?

Radulov?  How many odd many rushes does he get.
Gallagher? 
Galchenyuk scored his first goal in transition in forever last night.

Plekanec's offense has fallen off a cliff.  Ok, lets look back at how he used to generate offences.  A lot was in transition. How many times did Plekanec get a 2 on 1 this year, or generate offence that way? He's been very good in transition throughout his career, and now doesn't get any good chances this way.  (Part of this is on the deterioration of Plekanec's own game, i grant that, but still think he could get some more points if we had D that sprung him in the transition game). 


The only guy who seems to get anything in transition is Paul Byron.  He's the only one who regularly generates odd man rushes. 

 

Our defencemen, outside of Markov, don't make a good first pass.  They bang it off the boards and out. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

So this has degenerated into a Subban vs Weber thread again I see.

so I wade in.

Subban is great, but to say he drove transition game is a crock, his constant whirly dirvish spins and rushes did little to help forward progress. His "me against the other team" mentality was exciting to watch and it was great to get the crowd excited with a big rush yet they more often resulted in a turn over and him out of position than any real offensive threat.

and we won't see Weber argue with the refs while the opponents skate in for an easy goal like subby did when the ref dared be in the way of a loose puck.

team first mentality wins cups.

that being said, there are still too many holes on the backend and a consistent lack of top 6 talent. None of these issues are caused by Weber nor created by Subby's departure. 

  • Upvote 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, hockeyrealist said:

So this has degenerated into a Subban vs Weber thread again I see.

so I wade in.

Subban is great, but to say he drove transition game is a crock, his constant whirly dirvish spins and rushes did little to help forward progress. His "me against the other team" mentality was exciting to watch and it was great to get the crowd excited with a big rush yet they more often resulted in a turn over and him out of position than any real offensive threat.

and we won't see Weber argue with the refs while the opponents skate in for an easy goal like subby did when the ref dared be in the way of a loose puck.

team first mentality wins cups.

that being said, there are still too many holes on the backend and a consistent lack of top 6 talent. None of these issues are caused by Weber nor created by Subby's departure. 

 

I swore I wasn't going to get back into this, but I have to say: this is a laughable caricature of what Subban did on a shift by shift basis - about as realistic as saying that Weber is continually being caught flat-footed by speedy forwards. The fact is Subban was a strong defenceman in his own zone and an absolute beast on the transition. People are confusing a handful of high-profile, embarrassing gaffes and blow-outs with what the player actually is. Funnily enough, people ONLY do that with Subban; the fact that Karlsson has similar gaffes is serenely ignored, as is, say, the fact that Weber was -5 in the deciding playoff game last year; and that's as it should be. If Subban had the desired robotic personality, people would be similarly forgiving of his mistakes.

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Stogey24
1 hour ago, hockeyrealist said:

So this has degenerated into a Subban vs Weber thread again I see.

so I wade in.

Subban is great, but to say he drove transition game is a crock, his constant whirly dirvish spins and rushes did little to help forward progress. His "me against the other team" mentality was exciting to watch and it was great to get the crowd excited with a big rush yet they more often resulted in a turn over and him out of position than any real offensive threat.

and we won't see Weber argue with the refs while the opponents skate in for an easy goal like subby did when the ref dared be in the way of a loose puck.

team first mentality wins cups.

that being said, there are still too many holes on the backend and a consistent lack of top 6 talent. None of these issues are caused by Weber nor created by Subby's departure. 

You've gotta be kidding me. Crawl back into your cave. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

2 hours ago, Commandant said:

 

Its due to Galchenyuk being a better player, shaw being an upgrade on Eller, Radulov being added, Byron exploding offensively... all those things have helped mitigate what is loss.  Even with those things we are barely better. 

 

Now Max is at his usual pace, which is great, but one thing that is missing from his game is his breakaways.  He'd usually score about 10 or so a year that way.  They've dried up (though he's scored a lot cause Radulov being a playmaker in the zone helps him.  Imagine he had both. 

 

How many breakaways did Max Pacioretty get the last several seasons?
How many has he gotten this year? 
How many times does he get in on a 2 on 1?

Radulov?  How many odd many rushes does he get.
Gallagher? 
Galchenyuk scored his first goal in transition in forever last night.

Plekanec's offense has fallen off a cliff.  Ok, lets look back at how he used to generate offences.  A lot was in transition. How many times did Plekanec get a 2 on 1 this year, or generate offence that way? He's been very good in transition throughout his career, and now doesn't get any good chances this way.  (Part of this is on the deterioration of Plekanec's own game, i grant that, but still think he could get some more points if we had D that sprung him in the transition game). 


The only guy who seems to get anything in transition is Paul Byron.  He's the only one who regularly generates odd man rushes. 

 

Our defencemen, outside of Markov, don't make a good first pass.  They bang it off the boards and out. 

 

Some good points here. You touched on Plekanec falling off a cliff but without having the stats to support your claim that it was Subban feeding him on his transitional offence, it bears no merit. He is currently tied for 10th in team scoring after finishing 3rd last season. The guy has been awful this year, plain and simple. Brendan Gallagher is also having a terrible year for someone who was supposed to provide offence in the top 6. Danault as a top line center can't be good for offense either. Shaw's production is only marginally better than Eller's from last season. Galchenyuk isn't scoring as many goals as last year but is putting up more assists. I also don't care how Pacioretty scores, just that he does. 

 

Montreal's powerplay has improved from 25th last year to 13th this year. I know of a certain dman with a heavy shot that has helped in that particular category. 

 

Offence comes from many different places. Anyway we cut it, the team doesn't put pucks into the back of the net as much as we would like. There are a variety of reasons for this, including the lack of transition from the back end. Perhaps this team isn't scoring as much from the rush generated by the defense as before, but at the end of the day they are a tad above their pace from last year, and that's all that matters. 

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Scott462 said:

Petry and Weber can make a fine first pass. People underappreciate there passing skills

 

Weber is ok if you give him tome and space.  But if you put pressure on him he bangs it off the glass and out.  He isnt able to skate the puck out of danger and create the seams to make that pass.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, hockeyrealist said:

So this has degenerated into a Subban vs Weber thread again I see.

so I wade in.

Subban is great, but to say he drove transition game is a crock, his constant whirly dirvish spins and rushes did little to help forward progress. His "me against the other team" mentality was exciting to watch and it was great to get the crowd excited with a big rush yet they more often resulted in a turn over and him out of position than any real offensive threat.

and we won't see Weber argue with the refs while the opponents skate in for an easy goal like subby did when the ref dared be in the way of a loose puck.

team first mentality wins cups.

that being said, there are still too many holes on the backend and a consistent lack of top 6 talent. None of these issues are caused by Weber nor created by Subby's departure. 

 

I havent mentionned subban once.

 

I have mentionned that bergevin failed at the trade deadline to add offence.  Whether that is a top 6 centre... a top 6 winger... or a top 4 defenceman who plays the left side and moves the puck.  Any one of these would have added offence to the team.  Bergevin went 0 for 3

Link to post
Share on other sites

Pacioretty has honestly had about 5 breakaways in the past 10 games. We can complain that it's not 10 but it's still plenty of breakaways and to say that there's no other defender who could set Pacioretty free is laughable and even an insult to our players. Markov is arguably better at that type of outlet pass with vision than most players in the league.

 

As for those who won't "get into it" anymore, Subban is the one who is constantly brought up. I haven't seen any posts here claiming how much better Weber is than Subban coming from out of the blue. 

 

Karlsson can also be compared to Subban all day long but they are two different players. Karlsson is not as much of an East-West mover, he's more of a North-South rusher. He's also even more dangerous offensively (Karlsson 0.82 points per game vs Subban 0.64 points per game) and I admit I wouldn't have said that while Subban was still on the team. It's a comparison made between two offensively gifted defensemen who happened to play in the same division. 

  • Upvote 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, illWill said:

 

 

Some good points here. You touched on Plekanec falling off a cliff but without having the stats to support your claim that it was Subban feeding him on his transitional offence, it bears no merit. He is currently tied for 10th in team scoring after finishing 3rd last season. The guy has been awful this year, plain and simple. Brendan Gallagher is also having a terrible year for someone who was supposed to provide offence in the top 6. Danault as a top line center can't be good for offense either. Shaw's production is only marginally better than Eller's from last season. Galchenyuk isn't scoring as many goals as last year but is putting up more assists. I also don't care how Pacioretty scores, just that he does. 

 

Montreal's powerplay has improved from 25th last year to 13th this year. I know of a certain dman with a heavy shot that has helped in that particular category. 

 

Offence comes from many different places. Anyway we cut it, the team doesn't put pucks into the back of the net as much as we would like. There are a variety of reasons for this, including the lack of transition from the back end. Perhaps this team isn't scoring as much from the rush generated by the defense as before, but at the end of the day they are a tad above their pace from last year, and that's all that matters. 

 

 

Yes offence comes from many places.... which is why i say bergevin went 0 for 3 on the deadline.

 

And yes they are 0.05 goals per game better than last year.  Last year wasnt close to good enough and so this isnt good enough.

 

Bottom line still goes back to Bergevin not doing enough to help the team score

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, hockeyrealist said:

So this has degenerated into a Subban vs Weber thread again I see.

so I wade in.

Subban is great, but to say he drove transition game is a crock, his constant whirly dirvish spins and rushes did little to help forward progress. His "me against the other team" mentality was exciting to watch and it was great to get the crowd excited with a big rush yet they more often resulted in a turn over and him out of position than any real offensive threat.

and we won't see Weber argue with the refs while the opponents skate in for an easy goal like subby did when the ref dared be in the way of a loose puck.

team first mentality wins cups.

that being said, there are still too many holes on the backend and a consistent lack of top 6 talent. None of these issues are caused by Weber nor created by Subby's departure. 

Well put sir!

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Stogey24
1 hour ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

Pacioretty has honestly had about 5 breakaways in the past 10 games. We can complain that it's not 10 but it's still plenty of breakaways and to say that there's no other defender who could set Pacioretty free is laughable and even an insult to our players. Markov is arguably better at that type of outlet pass with vision than most players in the league.

 

As for those who won't "get into it" anymore, Subban is the one who is constantly brought up. I haven't seen any posts here claiming how much better Weber is than Subban coming from out of the blue. 

 

Karlsson can also be compared to Subban all day long but they are two different players. Karlsson is not as much of an East-West mover, he's more of a North-South rusher. He's also even more dangerous offensively (Karlsson 0.82 points per game vs Subban 0.64 points per game) and I admit I wouldn't have said that while Subban was still on the team. It's a comparison made between two offensively gifted defensemen who happened to play in the same division. 

You lay dormant until someone even breathes the name  Subban 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the frustration from people is the fact that the big blockbuster did not add to the team. It replaced one problem with another one. I like Weber. A lot. He plays a simple game and is better defensively than I expected. I think they're is some merit to the point made about playing as a team. Weber doesn't take risks, and more often than not he is well positioned to defend and make the simple play. Without mentioning intangibles, these are areas where I feel the team has improved by adding Weber.  Eye test only.

    Where the team has regressed is transition. There is no denying it. This team was better at transitioning the puck with Pk. Pk was a superior pick moving defenseman. 

   So we traded one problem for another one and did not improve what was needed. So I certainly understand the frustration. I also understand why people would get bored of multiple  topics reverting back to Pk vs Weber. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, BCHabnut said:

I think the frustration from people is the fact that the big blockbuster did not add to the team. It replaced one problem with another one. I like Weber. A lot. He plays a simple game and is better defensively than I expected. I think they're is some merit to the point made about playing as a team. Weber doesn't take risks, and more often than not he is well positioned to defend and make the simple play. Without mentioning intangibles, these are areas where I feel the team has improved by adding Weber.  Eye test only.

    Where the team has regressed is transition. There is no denying it. This team was better at transitioning the puck with Pk. Pk was a superior pick moving defenseman. 

   So we traded one problem for another one and did not improve what was needed. So I certainly understand the frustration. I also understand why people would get bored of multiple  topics reverting back to Pk vs Weber. 

 

One of the best and simplest posts out of the thousands regarding the trade

Link to post
Share on other sites

I was more just making the point the team got together after the season and decided the big move they need to make wasn't to find a permanent RW (once again a temporary solution we're hoping stays in Montreal) or find another top six centre or find a top four left handed defenceman to eventually replace Markov. No, the most important thing the team had to do was trade Subban.

 

Imagine owning a house with a leaky roof, broken window, and dripping faucet and you come home to find your partner decided to remove the hardwood flooring in favour of carpeting. That's the Montreal Canadiens baby.

Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

I was more just making the point the team got together after the season and decided the big move they need to make wasn't to find a permanent RW (once again a temporary solution we're hoping stays in Montreal) or find another top six centre or find a top four left handed defenceman to eventually replace Markov. No, the most important thing the team had to do was trade Subban.

 

Imagine owning a house with a leaky roof, broken window, and dripping faucet and you come home to find your partner decided to remove the hardwood flooring in favour of carpeting. That's the Montreal Canadiens baby.

Such a sad story.:cry_smile:

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.




×
×
  • Create New...