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BlueKross

Julien vs Therrien

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We never would have hired Therien to fire him if not for the language requirement. 

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ehjay    16
On 3/27/2017 at 3:30 PM, DON said:

Seems to me, that has been little change under new coach. Basically is as Pateryn's wife put it, maybe not the most PC statement obviously, but...same ol.  

I would like to thank GP's wife... Benn is better :)

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So, how's this for change:

 

Under Therien, the Habs were the most penalized team in the NHL.

 

Under Julien, the Habs have been the least penalized team in the NHL.

 

That big a turnaround is NOT a coincidence. Julien has clearly changed things up. What do you think is the cause?

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PMAC    81

Puck possession is the key. Keeping the puck means you're pressuring the other team and the team that is fighting to regain possession will take more penalties 

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alfredoh2009    13

A scary thought crossed my mind this morning: What if Therrien was a genius after all ? 

He was able to get the most out of this team... while Julien just can't

 

 

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illWill    435

I always thought Therrien was hated merely because of his first stint with the Habs and some people wanted him gone regardless of his results. I also don't think Julien is getting enough heat for what is going on, probably because of his more decorated past. 

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habsFan1986    1

Its not the coach and to some extent its not the player. But it is and combination of bad drafting, bad player development. For years this team doesn't draft to fill needs. They just making band aid type deals and relying on great goaltenders. Ever since bob stepped down we have had zero picks develop in NHL players as a result this core group is older and not good enough to win with. We have no prospects ready to  replace this core group of players. We can't make trades because we have no blue chip prospects. When you have 9mil in cap space and can't make a trade to improve your team I am sorry to say but that all falls on management. This team has no identity and no direction. Time to blow up this management team, and get someone in who knows how important drafting and player development is in today's NHL.

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31 minutes ago, habsFan1986 said:

Its not the coach and to some extent its not the player. But it is and combination of bad drafting, bad player development. For years this team doesn't draft to fill needs. They just making band aid type deals and relying on great goaltenders. Ever since bob stepped down we have had zero picks develop in NHL players as a result this core group is older and not good enough to win with. We have no prospects ready to  replace this core group of players. We can't make trades because we have no blue chip prospects. When you have 9mil in cap space and can't make a trade to improve your team I am sorry to say but that all falls on management. This team has no identity and no direction. Time to blow up this management team, and get someone in who knows how important drafting and player development is in today's NHL.

 

While it's not technically true to say that we've had "zero picks develop," you are absolutely right that player drafting/development has been sub-par and that this is the fundamental Achilles' Heel of the Bergevin era.

 

In terms of Julien vs Therrien: I am generally reluctant to attack coaches, because when you live in a different market from the one your favourite team is in, you quickly realize how universal complaints about coaching are. Most fanbases get angry at their coach's player usage, inability to make the right adjustments, lineup choices, under-utilization of young players, etc.. Most coaches, in other words, are accused of nearly interchangeable failings, and even the good ones seldom perform to the satisfaction of a huge chunk of their fan base. So I think that hardly ANY coach out there would satisfy the chronic second-guessers.

 

That said, I thought it was absolutely crystal clear that Therrien should have been fired after 2016; and that any normal organization would indeed have fired a coach, especially one going into his fifth season at the helm, at that point. The team needed a new voice, needed to turn the page on a disastrous season. Instead of doing what any emotionally healthy and intellectually unimpaired GM would do, Bergevin made the fatal decision to keep Therrien - a decision he would recant a mere six months later, proving it to have been a stupid mistake.

 

With catastrophic idiocy, he opted to 'turn the page' on 2016 by getting rid of the team's most dynamic and relentlessly productive and clutch-performing player, PK Subban. This was the turning-point, a choice to support a coach who was past his best-by date (and who had had an irrational hate-on for Subban going back to his broadcasting days) at the expense of pointlessly aging the core and moving the team away from the speed/possession game that increasingly defines the NHL.

 

Therrien should have been canned in May 2016 and a new guy brought in, to generate a fresh 'second look' at the core which could then have been acted upon by last season's trade deadline. The result of all this tomfoolery is that we burned two seasons (2016 & 2017) instead of one. Meanwhile the GM's dumb moves have piled up and the team is circling the drain.

 

Now as for Julien: he seems fine, but nothing special. He is another example of my long-running theory that 95% of NHL coaches are basically interchangeable. Only a very small number are truly distinguished at what they do. The language requirement means the odds of our hiring such a coach - low for any club, because of sheer per centages - are almost non-existent. Competence is the most we can aspire to behind the bench.

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hab29RETIRED    174
48 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

While it's not technically true to say that we've had "zero picks develop," you are absolutely right that player drafting/development has been sub-par and that this is the fundamental Achilles' Heel of the Bergevin era.

 

In terms of Julien vs Therrien: I am generally reluctant to attack coaches, because when you live in a different market from the one your favourite team is in, you quickly realize how universal complaints about coaching are. Most fanbases get angry at their coach's player usage, inability to make the right adjustments, lineup choices, under-utilization of young players, etc.. Most coaches, in other words, are accused of nearly interchangeable failings, and even the good ones seldom perform to the satisfaction of a huge chunk of their fan base. So I think that hardly ANY coach out there would satisfy the chronic second-guessers.

 

That said, I thought it was absolutely crystal clear that Therrien should have been fired after 2016; and that any normal organization would indeed have fired a coach, especially one going into his fifth season at the helm, at that point. The team needed a new voice, needed to turn the page on a disastrous season. Instead of doing what any emotionally healthy and intellectually unimpaired GM would do, Bergevin made the fatal decision to keep Therrien - a decision he would recant a mere six months later, proving it to have been a stupid mistake.

 

With catastrophic idiocy, he opted to 'turn the page' on 2016 by getting rid of the team's most dynamic and relentlessly productive and clutch-performing player, PK Subban. This was the turning-point, a choice to support a coach who was past his best-by date (and who had had an irrational hate-on for Subban going back to his broadcasting days) at the expense of pointlessly aging the core and moving the team away from the speed/possession game that increasingly defines the NHL.

 

Therrien should have been canned in May 2016 and a new guy brought in, to generate a fresh 'second look' at the core which could then have been acted upon by last season's trade deadline. The result of all this tomfoolery is that we burned two seasons (2016 & 2017) instead of one. Meanwhile the GM's dumb moves have piled up and the team is circling the drain.

 

Now as for Julien: he seems fine, but nothing special. He is another example of my long-running theory that 95% of NHL coaches are basically interchangeable. Only a very small number are truly distinguished at what they do. The language requirement means the odds of our hiring such a coach - low for any club, because of sheer per centages - are almost non-existent. Competence is the most we can aspire to behind the bench.

There are three issues with Montreal’s coaching under MB.  First of all, MT, Daigneult, Lefebvre should never have been hired.  Once they were MT and his staff should have been fired during the 2016 debacle year and someone like Boucher hired - that’s who I called for at the time.

 

lastly, MB replaced MT with essentially the same old school, same dinasour mentality coach - essentially replacing MT with a MT with less hair.  You look at the sens, the Flyers, the devils, even the Canucks, they went with more progressive coaches more in tune with today’s game.  While we are plodding along with coaches the prefer big grinders to players players with speed and skill. Boring dump and chase hockey is dead.  If you listen to the defenders of Julien under and bruins and Habs they spout the same nonsense  - his teams have great possession numbers just lousy puck luck.  Well the reason they have such lousy puck luck is that giving preference to grinding players with no finish results in lousy offensive numbers.

 

It’s the same issue with the defence.  MB is basically trying to create a dead puck era devils team - not taking into consideration that those teams, while backstopped by Brodeur, still had Dmen like rafalski and neidermeyer - not just the bone crushing Stevens and skilled players like Elias and holik.

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DON    37
2 hours ago, alfredoh2009 said:

A scary thought crossed my mind this morning: What if Therrien was a genius after all ? 

He was able to get the most out of this team... while Julien just can't

 

 

:clap:...he is still on the payroll, maybe Molson should just flip Mikey and Bergy in their positions...Therrien as interim GM of course.

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alfredoh2009    13

Aghhh, that would be aweful. :o

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BCHabnut    172

Julien has deployed a system that, for the most part, has had the habs out playing their oponent for a large chunk of this year.  Who the hell are his top defense options? That is not his fault. I am a Julien fan so far this year. He didn't build this team. He is just working with what is given.  

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Commandant    635
2 hours ago, BCHabnut said:

Julien has deployed a system that, for the most part, has had the habs out playing their oponent for a large chunk of this year.  Who the hell are his top defense options? That is not his fault. I am a Julien fan so far this year. He didn't build this team. He is just working with what is given.  

 

Thats a positive in the coach's collumn.  He can put the players in position to make plays.  They don't score the goals, that's talent and thats not the coach to fix, so I certainly see that aspect. 

 

On the negative side, this team is emotionally fragile.  One goal against shatters them and they fall apart.  Thats the coach. 

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BCHabnut    172
1 hour ago, Commandant said:

 

Thats a positive in the coach's collumn.  He can put the players in position to make plays.  They don't score the goals, that's talent and thats not the coach to fix, so I certainly see that aspect. 

 

On the negative side, this team is emotionally fragile.  One goal against shatters them and they fall apart.  Thats the coach. 

that's a good point. I never considered it. You used to see it in Boston as well. They would fall to pieces.

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Stogey24    280

 

 

I do blame Julien a bit for this shit show too. There are players on this team who could 100% be brining more. Julien is not pulling that out of them. 

 

Should have hired a players coach in Gallant. These guys all apparently loved him when he was assistant here.

 

I've said it like 10 times. Julien is Therrien with a ring.

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alfredoh2009    13

I think we are starting to see the difference CJ makes on a team compared to MT. His patience is paying off with players we would have traded for low draft picks and AHLers.

 

Shaw is playing very well, and despite the mental mistakes Petry and Morrow make most games, their paly has been improving.

 

I am still not a fan of CJ, but I have to give him some credit for the progress the team is making.

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ehjay    16

I don't like CJ either but I will give Ceaser his due. As alfredoh2009, last few games (losses incl.) Team as been playing as a unit. Coach has a lot to do with that. Tip o'da hat to Captn' Kirk too and dare I say (ohh crap and write!) JJD?!? 

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Stogey24    280

It's amazing how CJ suddenly became an excellent coach around here, the minute Carey Price came back :rolleyes:

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Commandant    635

I don't like Therrien, you all know this. 

 

but that Briere story is such a non-story. 

 

NHL coach said some mean words to a 36 year old pro hockey player behind closed doors?  Really?  Who cares?  Briere wasn't playing well and he was trying to motivate the guy....

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Commandant said:

I don't like Therrien, you all know this. 

 

but that Briere story is such a non-story. 

 

NHL coach said some mean words to a 36 year old pro hockey player behind closed doors?  Really?  Who cares?  Briere wasn't playing well and he was trying to motivate the guy....

 

 

 

The guy never should have been signed in the first place. A total PR move (and perhaps an early signal that the MB era was going to be a gong-show).

 

More telling vis-a-vis Therrien would be a series of stories of him behaving like a counter-productive jackass, from multiple players.

 

 

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Stogey24    280
37 minutes ago, Commandant said:

I don't like Therrien, you all know this. 

 

but that Briere story is such a non-story. 

 

NHL coach said some mean words to a 36 year old pro hockey player behind closed doors?  Really?  Who cares?  Briere wasn't playing well and he was trying to motivate the guy....

 

 

If that's his motivational techniques, he should have never been behind a bench 

 

It only furthers the old boy mentality this organization portrays 

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Commandant    635
2 hours ago, Stogey24 said:

If that's his motivational techniques, he should have never been behind a bench 

 

It only furthers the old boy mentality this organization portrays 

 

Sometimes a coach has to use tough love, and discipline.  

 

You can't coddle players all the time. 

 

These are adult professional athletes, not children. 

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1 hour ago, Commandant said:

 

Sometimes a coach has to use tough love, and discipline.  

 

You can't coddle players all the time. 

 

These are adult professional athletes, not children. 

 

Fair enough...but clearly Briere found this approach alienating and demoralizing. So taking everything at face value, that does seem to be an instance of bad coaching.

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DON    37
53 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

Sometimes a coach has to use tough love, and discipline.  

 

You can't coddle players all the time. 

 

These are adult professional athletes, not children. 

Unless it is Galchenyuk of course.;)

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