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As far as retiring numbers go: Markov YES, Koivu NO

 

Markov was one of the best D-men in his generation, a clear #1 Dman in his prime.  Even as the end draws near, he continues to make those he plays with better.  Koivu certainly was not one of the best C in the league during his run...and wouldn't have been a #1C on any true cup contending team.  So please, don't lump #79 in with #11 in the 'Banner to the Rafters' debate.

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4 minutes ago, sbhatt said:

As far as retiring numbers go: Markov YES, Koivu NO

 

Markov was one of the best D-men in his generation, a clear #1 Dman in his prime.  Even as the end draws near, he continues to make those he plays with better.  Koivu certainly was not one of the best C in the league during his run...and wouldn't have been a #1C on any true cup contending team.  So please, don't lump #79 in with #11 in the 'Banner to the Rafters' debate.

^true.  Koivu was a very good player for us...but there are so many others that were just as good or better.  Markov is truly deserving

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I don't retire Markov's number.

 

Every number in the Habs rafters is an all-time great at his position.  Markov is probably not even a hall of famer.

 

The guys in the rafters are all Hall of Famers, but not just that... they are all no doubters for the Hall of Fame.  Like we don't even have all our Hall of Fame Players numbers retired, but just the no doubt, best of the best hall of fame guys. 

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40 minutes ago, Commandant said:

I don't retire Markov's number.

 

Every number in the Habs rafters is an all-time great at his position.  Markov is probably not even a hall of famer.

 

The guys in the rafters are all Hall of Famers, but not just that... they are all no doubters for the Hall of Fame.  Like we don't even have all our Hall of Fame Players numbers retired, but just the no doubt, best of the best hall of fame guys. 

for what its worth - listening to 690 am radio...this subject came up and the consensus seems to be that his number should not be retired.  

 

 

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As I am reading this I am struck by the assumption that most of you are implicitly making that Markov will not win a Cup in the next 2-3 years. I am ever optimistic that Price is going to lead us to the promised land

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There's a difference between a number being retired by a team and a hall of fame selection. One signifies the service that player has brought to a particular organization and the other is his overall hockey accomplishments. Personally I dislike players like Mats Sundin, Mike Modano, and Doug Gilmour making the hall of fame because they never won any major trophies or were the best at their position for a period of time. I would lump Markov into that category as well though. A guy who played at a high level for a long period of time. So I think that he does have a decent chance at the hall of fame based on recent criteria. 

 

As far as numbers being retired goes. Just because a player might be a hall of famer doesn't mean a team should retire their jersey (example: Mark Messier for the Canucks), and just because a team retires a number doesn't mean they are a hall of famer (example: most teams that retire numbers). It seems that the Habs have a very high standard for raising a number to the rafters, as well they should. But as the league has grown and winning is more difficult than ever before I think that the standards need to be lowered just a tad. It's been 22 years since Patrick Roy played for the Habs, and IF there is anyone worthy of their number being retired from this generation of Habs it is Andrei Markov. He is currently 6th all time in games played, 6th all time in assists, and 2nd all time in points among defense men. And he isn't even done yet

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People forget that a few years back there were a lot of people who didn't want Roy retired because he, "only won two cups in Montreal" and that wasn't great enough.

 

Personally I've always had the viewpoint that you retire a number because you can't see another player wearing it. That another player wearing it would be unfair to them. 

 

Roy only had two Cups but could anyone else wear 33 in Montreal without being compared? Nah. 

 

If Markov retired and Sergachev started wearing #79, would anyone feel like it's too heavy of a reputation? I don't. Just like it was easy to see Galchenyuk wear #27. Or Gallagher wear #11.

 

Of course if Juulsen started wearing #76, I'd probably get annoyed, but I'm still annoyed with anyone who wears #25 so don't mind me.

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1 hour ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

People forget that a few years back there were a lot of people who didn't want Roy retired because he, "only won two cups in Montreal" and that wasn't great enough.

 

Personally I've always had the viewpoint that you retire a number because you can't see another player wearing it. That another player wearing it would be unfair to them. 

 

Roy only had two Cups but could anyone else wear 33 in Montreal without being compared? Nah. 

 

If Markov retired and Sergachev started wearing #79, would anyone feel like it's too heavy of a reputation? I don't. Just like it was easy to see Galchenyuk wear #27. Or Gallagher wear #11.

 

Of course if Juulsen started wearing #76, I'd probably get annoyed, but I'm still annoyed with anyone who wears #25 so don't mind me.

So you're a Petr Svoboda fan?

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2 hours ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

My entire reason for hating Dandenault was he was, "Wearing Damphousse's number"

 

I used to have Damphousse vs. McCarty fights in grade school simply over who was the better #25.

Given the age group you're in, I figured it was damphouse, but was just looking for a reaction ?

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I loved Damphousse, but he wasn't the heart and soul of the '93 Habs. That was Kirk Muller. 

 

(To those who interject that #33 was the heart, I strongly disagree. If comparing players to body parts, Roy was more of a particularly strong and fragrant sphincter muscle. You couldn't get shit past it, but what an asshole.)

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16 hours ago, Jeff Price (no relation) said:

I loved Damphousse, but he wasn't the heart and soul of the '93 Habs. That was Kirk Muller. 

 

(To those who interject that #33 was the heart, I strongly disagree. If comparing players to body parts, Roy was more of a particularly strong and fragrant sphincter muscle. You couldn't get shit past it, but what an asshole.)

 

:lol:

 

You're right about Muller, though. He scored huge goals in that playoff drive and was absolutely the driving force of that FW unit. It's too bad he played out the string as a grinder in Toronto, actually, because everyone has now forgotten that he was legitimate #1 C, all-star, and a tremendous all-around force for the first decade of his career. Part of the view that the '93 Habs were 'an average team with a great goalie' is based on ignorance of how good Muller was.

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21 hours ago, Jeff Price (no relation) said:

I loved Damphousse, but he wasn't the heart and soul of the '93 Habs. That was Kirk Muller. 

 

(To those who interject that #33 was the heart, I strongly disagree. If comparing players to body parts, Roy was more of a particularly strong and fragrant sphincter muscle. You couldn't get shit past it, but what an asshole.)

Hahahahaha.. too good amigo!! :D

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