Commandant Posted April 6, 2017 Share Posted April 6, 2017 16 minutes ago, THE Bobby Orr said: ok bro...but try going a week without bringing up Subban.. Seriously? Do you even understand that I'm not even comparing the two players at all here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE Bobby Orr Posted April 6, 2017 Share Posted April 6, 2017 48 minutes ago, Commandant said: Seriously? Do you even understand that I'm not even comparing the two players at all here? I do get it - it's not that hard to follow...all i am saying is try going a week (or two) without bringing up Subban. To add to your point; two very good defencemen (Norris contenders) are 1-2 in giveaways. I am not sure what that means - ie. is the ottawa rink just as hard on its players as ours is?...but based on the three recent games against Ottawa; Karlsson DID in fact, turnover the puck more than a few times. Anyway stats are great and all - but for me it's what i see on the ice...(not sure about Burns as i seldom watch him play) From strictly a fan standpoint - the difference is that Burns has 28g/74 pts and the Karlson has 17g/71 pts. So the turnovers are 'accepted' by both coaches and fans.. .Petry (and Emelin) on the other hand...it's tough to watch. And Price has to pay the price... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLassister Posted April 6, 2017 Share Posted April 6, 2017 30 minutes ago, THE Bobby Orr said: I do get it - it's not that hard to follow...all i am saying is try going a week (or two) without bringing up Subban. To add to your point; two very good defencemen (Norris contenders) are 1-2 in giveaways. I am not sure what that means - ie. is the ottawa rink just as hard on its players as ours is?...but based on the three recent games against Ottawa; Karlsson DID in fact, turnover the puck more than a few times. Anyway stats are great and all - but for me it's what i see on the ice...(not sure about Burns as i seldom watch him play) From strictly a fan standpoint - the difference is that Burns has 28g/74 pts and the Karlson has 17g/71 pts. So the turnovers are 'accepted' by both coaches and fans.. .Petry (and Emelin) on the other hand...it's tough to watch. And Price has to pay the price... As long as Burns and Karlsson have about the same amount of turnovers at home vs on the road, we can assume that they deserve #1-2 spots in giveaways. Burns Home : 102 Away : 44 Karlsson : Home : 55 Away : 51 Weber : Home : 59 Away : 21 Looks like Burns and the Sharks are in the same boat as Weber and the Habs... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xXx..CK..xXx Posted April 6, 2017 Share Posted April 6, 2017 I'm not debating the home bias. It's there and it's been there for years. What none of this takes into account, however, is that some players may play differently at home than they do on the road. Teams may play more defensively, or passive on the road and more offensively at home. I'm not saying this should account for double the turnovers, but it's entirely possible that a player would commit more turnovers at home than on the road. The opposite is also very possible so I'm not arguing the point. What I will argue is that the turnover stat shouldn't be entirely dismissed. Every time it is brought up for a Habs player, the rink bias is a brought up. Okay, that's fair but there are other ways of evaluating how indicative they are of the player. The first topic is Subban and Weber, whether comparing or not. Clearly there's some rink bias when you take into account that Weber is now apparently amongst the top 20 in the league and Subban isn't as high as he was last year. The problem with this, is that it's used as an argument to dismiss Subban as being turnover prone. When you compare Subban to the rest of his respective teammates in Nashville, one can see that this is a wrong assumption. He has a few less turnovers than Eklholm but has played 16 games less as well. Sure, there was home bias when he was a Hab but he still has issues with turning the puck over with respect to the rest of his current team. I'll give him props for seemingly getting a little more efficient though. The second issue is the topic of Petry. I personally like Petry and if he can get hot, I think he can help offensively with a big goal or two in the playoffs. With that being said, the argument is once again that he doesn't turn over the puck as often as it seems, due to rink bias. Once again, this rink bias does not matter when you compare him to other players on the team. He may have more turnovers than he should league wide because of a faulty stat, but he also has more turnovers than he should because other Habs players of similar skill sets have less than him. Faulty stat or not, I think it's a fair argument to say both those players turn the puck over too much because this is evidenced when you look at their turnovers with respect to their teammates. So why is it important to bring rink bias up in this context? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted April 6, 2017 Share Posted April 6, 2017 4 hours ago, THE Bobby Orr said: I do get it - it's not that hard to follow...all i am saying is try going a week (or two) without bringing up Subban. To add to your point; two very good defencemen (Norris contenders) are 1-2 in giveaways. I am not sure what that means - ie. is the ottawa rink just as hard on its players as ours is?...but based on the three recent games against Ottawa; Karlsson DID in fact, turnover the puck more than a few times. Anyway stats are great and all - but for me it's what i see on the ice...(not sure about Burns as i seldom watch him play) From strictly a fan standpoint - the difference is that Burns has 28g/74 pts and the Karlson has 17g/71 pts. So the turnovers are 'accepted' by both coaches and fans.. .Petry (and Emelin) on the other hand...it's tough to watch. And Price has to pay the price... San Jose is another rink where the home/road splits are funky. Thats why I put zero stock into turnovers. Corsi is much more reliable. Alot less grey area in what is an attempted shot, and what isn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted April 6, 2017 Share Posted April 6, 2017 16 minutes ago, xXx..CK..xXx said: I'm not debating the home bias. It's there and it's been there for years. What none of this takes into account, however, is that some players may play differently at home than they do on the road. Teams may play more defensively, or passive on the road and more offensively at home. I'm not saying this should account for double the turnovers, but it's entirely possible that a player would commit more turnovers at home than on the road. The opposite is also very possible so I'm not arguing the point. What I will argue is that the turnover stat shouldn't be entirely dismissed. Every time it is brought up for a Habs player, the rink bias is a brought up. Okay, that's fair but there are other ways of evaluating how indicative they are of the player. The first topic is Subban and Weber, whether comparing or not. Clearly there's some rink bias when you take into account that Weber is now apparently amongst the top 20 in the league and Subban isn't as high as he was last year. The problem with this, is that it's used as an argument to dismiss Subban as being turnover prone. When you compare Subban to the rest of his respective teammates in Nashville, one can see that this is a wrong assumption. He has a few less turnovers than Eklholm but has played 16 games less as well. Sure, there was home bias when he was a Hab but he still has issues with turning the puck over with respect to the rest of his current team. I'll give him props for seemingly getting a little more efficient though. The second issue is the topic of Petry. I personally like Petry and if he can get hot, I think he can help offensively with a big goal or two in the playoffs. With that being said, the argument is once again that he doesn't turn over the puck as often as it seems, due to rink bias. Once again, this rink bias does not matter when you compare him to other players on the team. He may have more turnovers than he should league wide because of a faulty stat, but he also has more turnovers than he should because other Habs players of similar skill sets have less than him. Faulty stat or not, I think it's a fair argument to say both those players turn the puck over too much because this is evidenced when you look at their turnovers with respect to their teammates. So why is it important to bring rink bias up in this context? Even on one's on team, how much you handle the puck is indicative of how many turnovers you'll have. Guys who handle the puck more have more turnovers, that's just reality. But one also has to ask, are all turnovers created equal? No, a turnover that occurs in an area where the defenceman can recover and stop the other team from getting a scoring chance is not comparable to one where you giveup a breakaway. Scoring Chances For, Scoring chances against... this is what matters. There are so many better stats than turnovers... such as xGF, Corsi, Fenwick, etc... I don't know why we give a flying fadoo about turnovers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted April 6, 2017 Share Posted April 6, 2017 6 minutes ago, Commandant said: Even on one's on team, how much you handle the puck is indicative of how many turnovers you'll have. Guys who handle the puck more have more turnovers, that's just reality. But one also has to ask, are all turnovers created equal? No, a turnover that occurs in an area where the defenceman can recover and stop the other team from getting a scoring chance is not comparable to one where you giveup a breakaway. Scoring Chances For, Scoring chances against... this is what matters. There are so many better stats than turnovers... such as xGF, Corsi, Fenwick, etc... I don't know why we give a flying fadoo about turnovers. The stat still means something though. Every other Hab would be in top 5 for turn overs, if the stats were that skewed. I brought this entire thing up because I watched Petry hand the puck over a bunch of times. That's the fadoo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted April 6, 2017 Share Posted April 6, 2017 13 minutes ago, Stogey24 said: The stat still means something though. Every other Hab would be in top 5 for turn overs, if the stats were that skewed. Edmonton, San Jose, Montreal, are seriously skewed. Other teams are slightly skewed Montreal has 3 of the top 16, 5 of the top 40. Team (Home, Road) San Jose (749, 308) Edmonton (595, 313) Montreal (600, 311) Home Giveaways the league wide spread is from 156-749 Road Giveaways the worst team is 359, the best 232 The stat is ####ED Petry is 73 at home, 27 on the road. (NEARLY TRIPLE) Emelin is 65 at home 19 on the road. If we only look at Road Stats... (Equalize bias for all players. Petry is 37th in the NHL. The top 10 in road giveaways. 1. Karlsson 2. Crosby 3. Burns 4. Klingberg 5. Yandle 6. Seabrook 7. Dougthy 8. Brodie 9 Kucherov 10. Chara. What does leading the league in giveaways even mean? Players with lots of giveaways are amongst the best players in the NHL, cause they touch the puck the most. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted April 6, 2017 Share Posted April 6, 2017 Exactly. When a player isn't the best in the game, yet still leading in that category, it's telling you something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted April 6, 2017 Share Posted April 6, 2017 Markov tied for 14th in NHL (with a certain Nashville d-man) with 0.59pts/gm. The old guy aint quite washed up yet. (Josi&Ellis 41 giveaways...#76 has 57 in numerous fewer games...I guess Josi and Ellis dont handle puck as much, comparing a teams top two d-men to an overpaid #3 seems fair) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted April 6, 2017 Share Posted April 6, 2017 19 minutes ago, Stogey24 said: Exactly. When a player isn't the best in the game, yet still leading in that category, it's telling you something. But he's not leading.... He's 37th when you take the Bell Centre out of the equation. When you equalize it so everyone is measured on their road stats (so no one rink can have too big an effect). He's not a top turnover guy. He's got 24 road turnovers. The variation between 37th and like 100th, is tiny too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted April 6, 2017 Share Posted April 6, 2017 Ok, what ever you say man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted April 6, 2017 Share Posted April 6, 2017 There was a game back in 2014 I think where I tracked giveaways by Subban on. He had two I counted. The Bell Centre claimed him four. When I looked back at the game it turned out he lost control of the puck twice but got it back. That was the only explanation I saw that he gave away the puck. I'm pretty sure that's how San Jose counts as well. Any moment where the puck is lost and a shot was not taken in a giveaway to the Bell Centre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCHabnut Posted April 6, 2017 Share Posted April 6, 2017 9 hours ago, Stogey24 said: I watch Petry turn the puck over more than any Hab. Anyways, it's not worth getting into it over this. He needs to make better decisions with the puck. Petry has definitely been turning over the puck a lot, but the measurement is inaccurate. The Pk Weber example is a perfect one. They switched teams and switched places in giveaway numbers. Some of that can be attributed to Mt and his dump out strategy, but the numbers are obvious. Bell centre tracking of turnovers is differ rent from other rinks. Home vs road turnovers and pk vs Weber turnovers are absolute proof of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted April 6, 2017 Share Posted April 6, 2017 Well when Petry gets traded in the summer, we'll find out if you fellas are right Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 1 hour ago, Stogey24 said: Well when Petry gets traded in the summer, we'll find out if you fellas are right After his awesome playoff performance, you will be sad to see him go! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 1 hour ago, DON said: After his awesome playoff performance, you will be sad to see him go! He's more than capable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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