Have we arrived at the point where we need sweeping changes?

[Prime Minister Koivu]

11 minutes ago, Trizzak said:

 

He basically said as much in his end-of-season press conference, saying some teams have won the Stanley Cup without a 1st line centre. 

 

Man that is disheartening 

[sbhatt]

16 minutes ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:

 

Man that is disheartening 

 

 

I had to go back to the 2003 New Jersey Devils to find a SC winner with no standout #1 caliber center.  The 2011 Bruins had Bergeron, who while not being a huge point producer, is perhaps as good a 2 way center as there is and a Team Canada member...a far sight better than we will have going into next season.  I am not buying into MB's bullshit...he should be fired.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

3 hours ago, Commandant said:

 

Dudley doesn't handle the AHL team.  Bergevin does.  Which goes to show we know little of what Dudley is doing too. 

 

Quick....

What does Bill Guerin do for Pittsburgh? What is his role and how is it different than Jason Botterill?

What does Ron Fishman do for Washington?

What are Randy Lee and Daniel Alfreddson's responsibilities in Ottawa?

What is Chris Drury's job with the Rangers?

Thats the four teams alive in the East.  What is the job description and duties of these guys and how is it different from Mellanby?

 

Yeah we have no clue what Mellanby does, but that applies for most AGMs. 

 

Of all those guys, Jason Botterill is the one we know the most about? Why, cause he is about to get the Buffalo job. 

 

No one writes about what these AGMs do, unless they are about to be imminently hired by another organization.  There is just no interest in the media on a story about Scott Mellanby's day to day duties. 

 

Two separate points. We know which AGMs handle AHL duties. We know a lot of Rick Dudley's jobs as he's basically been a co-GM for Bergevin similar to Burke and Nonis in Toronto and Anaheim. You do this too often. Stop being stubborn to make a point.

 

Bill Guerin: Analytics, day to day communications with players for Rutherford

Don Fishman: Salary cap specialist, legal experience

Randy Lee: player development. His resume is he has been involved with the team for 20+ years, has worked everything from strength coach to video coach. Because he's done everything, he's even worked as a co-GM with Ottawa.

Daniel Alfredsson: I believe he's similar to Guerin as a day to day communications for Dorion

Chris Drury: Guessing similar to Guerin as well

 

Took me 10 minutes. 

[Habsfan1989]

In my honest opinion this organization Has decline in the drafting and development of players since bob gainey left.

 

when he was here we were in the top 10 in nhl and we had only drafted in top 10 twice. This core is still his core but we have done nothing to add to it.

 

we don't even have a core of prospects coming up the pipeline that could push for starting jobs.

 

is it MB or is it Timmins?

[Dalhabs]

I am annoyed to see PK help the preds in a long playoff run while we still have the same problems as the last 5 years but now without the excitement of PK.

[Commandant]

7 hours ago, sbhatt said:

 

 

I had to go back to the 2003 New Jersey Devils to find a SC winner with no standout #1 caliber center.  The 2011 Bruins had Bergeron, who while not being a huge point producer, is perhaps as good a 2 way center as there is and a Team Canada member...a far sight better than we will have going into next season.  I am not buying into MB's bullshit...he should be fired.

 

The leading scorer in the 2011 playoffs (and he was again in 2013) was david krejci.

 

Between him and bergeron thats strength down the middle.  Habs have nothing close to that.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

4 hours ago, Habsfan1989 said:

In my honest opinion this organization Has decline in the drafting and development of players since bob gainey left.

 

when he was here we were in the top 10 in nhl and we had only drafted in top 10 twice. This core is still his core but we have done nothing to add to it.

 

we don't even have a core of prospects coming up the pipeline that could push for starting jobs.

 

is it MB or is it Timmins?

 

Bob certainly made his share of mistakes, but his drafting and development looks exceptional in retrospect. True, he oversaw boobs like the Kostitsyns and Komisarek, but he also developed Price, PK, Pleks, and Patches among other core pieces, to say nothing of (sigh) drafting Ryan McDonagh. We could definitely use some of that moxy right about now.

[Commandant]

I still think its lefebvre.

[Trizzak]

The last time a Habs GM tried to trade for a #1 center, we got Scott Gomez. 

 

Maybe it's better for Bergevin to just insist Galchenyuk is a centre...

[Machine of Loving Grace]

8 hours ago, Commandant said:

I still think its lefebvre.

 

And Lapointe. He's supposed to be the director of player development. Clearly a lot of failure under his wing.

[Habsfan1989]

8 hours ago, Trizzak said:

The last time a Habs GM tried to trade for a #1 center, we got Scott Gomez. 

 

Maybe it's better for Bergevin to just insist Galchenyuk is a centre...

That gm was Pierre gauthier, bob took time away from team after death of his daughter.

Bob made the deal for lecavalier but nhl put a stop to it to save Tampa from decline.

[illWill]

I'd say whatever is happening down in the AHL needs to be changed. There seems to be a disconnect between management on how to develop the players. For example if a top 6 winger on the Habs gets injured and they call up a similar player, that player seems to find himself on the 4th line in a checking role. I'll admit that I might be ignorant as to how other teams handle those situations, but it makes zero sense to have an offensive player out of his element in a higher league. So I'd say between that and the lack of players making the jump from the farm as being this team's biggest issue. 

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

39 minutes ago, Habsfan1989 said:

That gm was Pierre gauthier, bob took time away from team after death of his daughter.

Bob made the deal for lecavalier but nhl put a stop to it to save Tampa from decline.

 

That's not how I remember it. Bob was the mastermind behind blowing up the 2009 team and reconstructing it with free agency. The Gomez trade was the first strike in that process ('upgrading' on Koivu, then running the table on free agents). For better and worse, Bob is to blame until 2010.

 

37 minutes ago, illWill said:

I'd say whatever is happening down in the AHL needs to be changed. There seems to be a disconnect between management on how to develop the players. For example if a top 6 winger on the Habs gets injured and they call up a similar player, that player seems to find himself on the 4th line in a checking role. I'll admit that I might be ignorant as to how other teams handle those situations, but it makes zero sense to have an offensive player out of his element in a higher league. So I'd say between that and the lack of players making the jump from the farm as being this team's biggest issue. 

 

I don't think it's unusual at all for teams to limit call-ups to 4th-line duty. Sadly, it is all too typical for today's coaches to focus primarily on defence and demand that a player 'earn their trust' via limited minutes playing with plumbers before any hope of a promotion is offered. It comes back to the hyper over-coached risk-averse mindset that marks coaching today (and which I've griped about any number of times).

[PMAC]

1 hour ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

And Lapointe. He's supposed to be the director of player development. Clearly a lot of failure under his wing.

 

Yes, Lapointe has some responsibility but it is Lefevbre, his staff -- and by extension, Bergevin-- who bear the primary responsibility for the on ice development of players or lack thereof. Just because I am not in favour of a scorched earth approach to organizational change in this particular case does not mean I am arguing for the status quo. Scouting and development must be improved and the first step in that process is canning Lefebre.

[Commandant]

1 hour ago, Habsfan1989 said:

That gm was Pierre gauthier, bob took time away from team after death of his daughter.

Bob made the deal for lecavalier but nhl put a stop to it to save Tampa from decline.

 

Bob made the Gomez deal. 

 

It was before he walked away. 

[Commandant]

1 hour ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

And Lapointe. He's supposed to be the director of player development. Clearly a lot of failure under his wing.

 

Sure, get rid of that staff.

 

I also question what Churla has done, our "head amateur scout" 

[Habsfan1989]

40 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

Bob made the Gomez deal. 

 

It was before he walked away. 

I remember reading a article on how gauthier watched a video tape of mcdonagh at the world Jr. And didn't like what he saw which is why he made the trade. Bob wasn't around the team much that year and walked away after that season. It was a very interesting read.

[Commandant]

Just now, Habsfan1989 said:

I remember reading a article on how gauthier watched a video tape of mcdonagh at the world Jr. And didn't like what he saw which is why he made the trade. Bob wasn't around the team much that year and walked away after that season. It was a very interesting read.

 

Gauthier advised Bob on the trade, but he was still director of player personel at that time.  Bob pulled the trigger on the advice of his scouts and advisors. 

 

Gauthier was a trusted confidant, who Bob asked about McD's progress when his name entered negotiations. 

[hab29RETIRED]

42 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

Gauthier advised Bob on the trade, but he was still director of player personel at that time.  Bob pulled the trigger on the advice of his scouts and advisors. 

 

Gauthier was a trusted confidant, who Bob asked about McD's progress when his name entered negotiations. 

I also read that Timmins was furious when that deal was made. I hated the deal just from the standpoint of having to give up anything to take on an "untradable" contract.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

22 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

I also read that Timmins was furious when that deal was made. I hated the deal just from the standpoint of having to give up anything to take on an "untradable" contract.

 

That deal was predicated on two things: first, that McDonagh would not become a top-2 NHL defenceman, and that Gomez would continue to perform as the 60-70 point C he had been his entire career.

 

They really blew their player assessment when it came to McDonagh. There's no getting around that. However, to this day I find it hard to condemn them for failing to anticipate that Gomez would drop completely off the map at the age of 30. We should have gotten at least 3-4 years of 'normal' career performance from him. Unfortunately, Gomez turned out to be one of those players whose decline begins prematurely relative to the norm for accomplished NHLers. McDonagh's blossoming into a quasi-elite performer means that it still would have been a rotten trade, but rationally speaking it should not have been the absolute catastrophe it became.

 

I've always thought that, while Gainey made some bad moves, he also didn't get a whole lot of luck from the hockey gods - whether it be the injuries to Lang and Markov in '09, Gomez's unexpected collapse, the failure of highly-touted players like Higgins and Komisarek to become what many expected them to become, etc., etc..

 

 

 

 

[illWill]

Seeing as how the Gomez trade from 8 years ago is still a popular discussion point, I may as well assume that the Subban trade will never ever go away on this board. I suppose the best I can hope for is that it doesn't dominate each and every discussion 

[Machine of Loving Grace]

6 hours ago, illWill said:

Seeing as how the Gomez trade from 8 years ago is still a popular discussion point, I may as well assume that the Subban trade will never ever go away on this board. I suppose the best I can hope for is that it doesn't dominate each and every discussion 

It's wrong to talk history now? About the Montreal Canadiens? The team that believes in forum ghosts?

[hab29RETIRED]

1 hour ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

It's wrong to talk history now? About the Montreal Canadiens? The team that believes in forum ghosts?

Didn't you know the kool-aid drinkers only want to discuss the successful history, not the last 22 years of mainly hell - which they seem to be good with!

[Habsfan1989]

7 hours ago, illWill said:

Seeing as how the Gomez trade from 8 years ago is still a popular discussion point, I may as well assume that the Subban trade will never ever go away on this board. I suppose the best I can hope for is that it doesn't dominate each and every discussion 

Better hope Nashville doesn't win a cup before we do or look out lol

[PMAC]

Just because not everyone wants Bergevin's head on a platter does not mean that we think the team or management team is perfect and it certainly does not mean that we are happy with over 20 years without a Cup