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Jonathan Drouin is a Hab. Mikhail Sergachev is not. 2018 conditional picks exchanged.

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18 minutes ago, Link67 said:

Does anyone seriously think Sergachev would be doing anywhere near as well as he is surrounded by this D? Operating on this PP instead of the one in Tampa?

 

Put things in perspective for crying outloud, its a trade, a swap of players, a swap of environment, team players and surroundings. Over here Sergachev would have been playing somewhere in this D core for 18 min a night, played on our PP making plays to our forwards. Just from that standpoint, his point totals would be significantly different. And who knows what Drouin's point totals would look like playing with Stamkos and Kucherov this season.

 

Sergachev literally got traded to a very ideal situation for himself, and Drouin did not. Failing to see that, or account for it, is not a fair way to look at this thing.

 

It's true, but this has a whiff of the John Leclair deal to me. Put a very talented young player in an "ideal situation" and he can blossom into a star-cum-superstar.

 

I think the optimists may be looking at it the wrong way. Sergachev is 19 years old playing a position that generally takes guys three or four years to master at the NHL level. And he is already a top-4 defender. And you can say, 'well, he's on a powerhouse.' Sure. But an organization as strong as TB would not put a 19-year-old in its top 4 unless that kid forced his way into that position. In other words, Sergachev has earned a top-4 spot on the best team in the game. At 19 years old. That is MUCH more impressive than a 22-year-old Drouin producing mediocre numbers while artificially being gifted a #1C slot on a crap team.

 

A solid case can be made that it looks as though we traded a future Norris-trophy-calibre defenceman for a run-of-the-mill top-3 FW who is not even a natural C. That would be an absolutely terrible trade.

 

 

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Link67    128
40 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

It's true, but this has a whiff of the John Leclair deal to me. Put a very talented young player in an "ideal situation" and he can blossom into a star-cum-superstar.

 

I think the optimists may be looking at it the wrong way. Sergachev is 19 years old playing a position that generally takes guys three or four years to master at the NHL level. And he is already a top-4 defender. And you can say, 'well, he's on a powerhouse.' Sure. But an organization as strong as TB would not put a 19-year-old in its top 4 unless that kid forced his way into that position. In other words, Sergachev has earned a top-4 spot on the best team in the game. At 19 years old. That is MUCH more impressive than a 22-year-old Drouin producing mediocre numbers while artificially being gifted a #1C slot on a crap team.

 

A solid case can be made that it looks as though we traded a future Norris-trophy-calibre defenceman for a run-of-the-mill top-3 FW who is not even a natural C. That would be an absolutely terrible trade.

 

 

 

Don't forget that for his first 10 to 15 games, Sergachev was hardly even playin 15 min a night, and mostly playing on the PP, where he started accumulating points. That is not someone who has forced his way into anything, Tampa had something to prove as well, that this trade was good for them also, Drouin is a very talented player. The last thing they want to send as a message is they traded away their 3rd best forward, for a non roster player. 

 

He had to climb his way onto that second pair and the trust of his coach, because clearly based on his TOI early in the year he had none of that. Had he still been here and Drouin still there, Drouin would be considered part of their big 3, and Sergachev would have followed a similar path that Mete did, and also had nowhere near his current point totals. He wouldn't look like the player he does right now if he were part of this mess, and Drouin would likely have twice as many points as he does now playing on that top line and PP.

 

That is very likely the hard truth imo, the results from both players today, are directly related to the fact they were traded for eachother and entered their new respective environments. Flip that around once more and the results would again be completely different looking in possibly very opposing ways. I don't think Sergachev would look like a future Norris winner to anyone if he played on this team, and I don't think Jonathan Drouin would have 5 goals right now if he played in Tampa.

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DON    38

Sergachev 0:01/game short handed.

Least icetime/game of all their 6 d-men.

Hedman-Sergachev basically play all the PPs, which also is the #1 PP in league at 25.9%

 

Even MAB would do well offensively if he returned to Tampa.

 

 

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Of course Sergachev is being sheltered, and of course he's being given optimal minutes. We tried to do the same with Mete until he lost favour with Julien. But being sheltered doesn't mean you're good enough.

 

But if Sergachev wasn't good enough, he wouldn't be in Tampa. If Tampa sends him away now, they get a second round draft pick. Instead of wasting a roster spot with a guy who isn't good enough, why not get the second rounder and try again next year? It's because he's contributing to their success this year.

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A top-4 defenceman on a top contender at age 19.

 

Rationalize it away all you want, guys, but that is seriously impressive.

 

If it were any other player than Sergachev, we'd all be looking on going, 'wow, Norris potential for sure.'

 

Similarly, if we were outside looking in at Drouin, we'd be saying, 'hey, great skills, probably will be a 70-point winger, ceiling at C far from clear, may not really be a C at all.'

 

Like I say, right now it looks as though we traded a potential Norris candidate for an average top-3 FW. I hate to say it, but that is the common-sense, face-value assessment of this deal, it seems to me - once we drop all the special pleading and look at it the way we'd look at any other two players.

 

 

 

 

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illWill    455

Sergachev has Norris potential all of the sudden? 

 

It's a bit of a stretch to say we traded away a potential Norris winner. I could easily say he could be out of the league in 5 years. The likely scenario though is that he will become a really good defenseman and Drouin will become a really good forward. This is what the trade was. This team needed, and still needs offense

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Link67    128
20 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

A top-4 defenceman on a top contender at age 19.

 

Rationalize it away all you want, guys, but that is seriously impressive.

 

If it were any other player than Sergachev, we'd all be looking on going, 'wow, Norris potential for sure.'

 

Similarly, if we were outside looking in at Drouin, we'd be saying, 'hey, great skills, probably will be a 70-point winger, ceiling at C far from clear, may not really be a C at all.'

 

Like I say, right now it looks as though we traded a potential Norris candidate for an average top-3 FW. I hate to say it, but that is the common-sense, face-value assessment of this deal, it seems to me - once we drop all the special pleading and look at it the way we'd look at any other two players.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Correct, lets look at them as any other player, lets first remove the expectations we have preconceived for Sergachev because we drafted him as low as we did. Lets just look at him as any other 19 year old Dman, playing a role on a team. With that said, is Sergachev playing a role as big, and creating as big of an impact individually on his Team's Defence as guys like Ekblad and Werenski did at the same age? Those are the real Future Norris Guys, so before we start Thrusting the kid into that pack, while he is barely averaging 15min per night, lets evaluate his surroundings better, and see if they are not contributing to most of the early success he is having before propping him up on the golden chair and deeming the trade a disaster after a mere 3 months of hockey.

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John B    13
10 hours ago, dlbalr said:

 

Tampa Bay has only played 37 games so far so no, he's not there quite yet.

My bad. I was on hockeydb.com and forgot that they do career totals.  I got a little ahead of myself.lol

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Lots of good points made in the recent posts here. 

IMO Drouin would not be part of a top 3 threat in Tampa as he was already out of favour there and they have depth that wouldn’t force them to play him there. Stammer, Kucherov, namestikov and Point would most likely still be their go to guys simply because Drouin was a problem player and really only got opportunities when injuries arose.

Some very smart hockey people there saw problems with his game, particularly as a C so I do not believe he would be shining there.

to say Sergachev is being played solely to ensure the lightning don’t appear to have lost on the deal is a stretch IMO once again, no professional team with sights on a cup are going to sacrifice chances to win just to protect their image. They could easily let him develop for 4-5 years before giving him the chances he’s gotten and not looked bad. Dmen rarely get the chances he’s had at his age and it is the same smart hockey people deciding he is more valuable in a sheltered role on an NHL Team that slowly developing in minors. 

 

The lightning shrewdly saw an opportunity to leverage Mtl’s desperate need for offense and unloaded an expendable (but still valuable asset) to fill a need. Bergy got  taken advantage of, plain and simple. It was obv Drouin was not a key piece of Tampa’s future, yet Sergachev was a key piece of Mtl’s as is evident with the porous d corps and minimal prospects to look forward to.

 

unless Drouin came in and performed like a true #1 Centre (wins draws, min 60 points) this was a bad deal strictly in that Mtl doesn’t have enough d prospects to justify shipping out the best and most NHL ready (even if it had been a few more years for him to actually fulfill that role). 

Aside from the odd eye catching move Drouin has not impressed at all and I see 100% why he was deemed expendable in TB.  Not to mention the optics of being a cry baby in the way he handled limites playing time and demotions. 

He hadn’t earned the right to demand anything. 

If anything Mtl is the team that is stuck trying to justify the trade and now are stuck with him as a C because they so proudly stated that he was the answer we’ve been waiting for. Same reason we’re stuck watching our most gifted offensive player (yes #27 is more gifted offensively than Drouin, better finisher at least) playing wing. 

 

Mtl postured that they were in “win now” mode but in reality that is false since they didn’t do all they needed to maintain two of last years (and more in Markys case) best players in markov and Rads. 

 

Win now mentality would have meant riding Markov until his legs gave out and offering whatever it took to keep rads as anyone who saw him play last year knows he brought the heart and energy of Gallagher with more skill and natural ability. What more could you want? 

 

I was optimistic that Drouin would rise to the occasion but that is far from the case and I have been seriously underwhelmed by his performance and see litttle chance of that changing given his track record, history of attitude and lack of accountability. Why is it only pax who has to answer for lack of offense, rarely see the press confronting Drouin about his lack of production and team failures. Even though he doesn’t wear a letter he was brought in to be an answer and doesn’t seem to be expected to respond as to why he hasn’t been better. 

 

unless Drouin goes on to have 3 straight 70+ point seasons (after this one since it is essentially over) with a positive +/- and making his teammates better around him I think this deal was a loss for the habs given lack of prospects and total lack of mobile puck-moving d in the organization. And I highly doubt he has that in him. Hopefully I am wrong, which has occurred before haha. 

 

 

 

 

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23 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

A top-4 defenceman on a top contender at age 19.

 

Rationalize it away all you want, guys, but that is seriously impressive.

 

If it were any other player than Sergachev, we'd all be looking on going, 'wow, Norris potential for sure.'

 

Similarly, if we were outside looking in at Drouin, we'd be saying, 'hey, great skills, probably will be a 70-point winger, ceiling at C far from clear, may not really be a C at all.'

 

Like I say, right now it looks as though we traded a potential Norris candidate for an average top-3 FW. I hate to say it, but that is the common-sense, face-value assessment of this deal, it seems to me - once we drop all the special pleading and look at it the way we'd look at any other two players.

 

 

 

 

 

This comment nails it! 

Any Norris candidate talk is premature imo but not impossible and kind of irrelevant as nobody is ever going to mention drouins name for any trophies so kind of moot point imo. Winning is all that matter and right now sergachev is on a winner who has a brighter future than he had in Mtl. 

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22 hours ago, Link67 said:

 

 

Correct, lets look at them as any other player, lets first remove the expectations we have preconceived for Sergachev because we drafted him as low as we did. Lets just look at him as any other 19 year old Dman, playing a role on a team. With that said, is Sergachev playing a role as big, and creating as big of an impact individually on his Team's Defence as guys like Ekblad and Werenski did at the same age? Those are the real Future Norris Guys, so before we start Thrusting the kid into that pack, while he is barely averaging 15min per night, lets evaluate his surroundings better, and see if they are not contributing to most of the early success he is having before propping him up on the golden chair and deeming the trade a disaster after a mere 3 months of hockey.

 

Good point but fact is he is excelling and Drouin is not . If it because of how he is being handled, good on the team. Why can’t Mtl handle Drouin to flourish also? 

Instead we forced him into a role he wasn’t suited for and continue to lack accountability for his lack of production, if it because of how he is handled than coaching and mgmnt are to blame, if it because he isn’t as good as we were told he is then mgmnt is to blame. If he isn’t in shape or mentally prepared then he and staff are to blame. Regardless he isn’t performing and sergachev is. Results are all that matter in the NHL.

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22 hours ago, illWill said:

Sergachev has Norris potential all of the sudden? 

 

It's a bit of a stretch to say we traded away a potential Norris winner. I could easily say he could be out of the league in 5 years. The likely scenario though is that he will become a really good defenseman and Drouin will become a really good forward. This is what the trade was. This team needed, and still needs offense

Good point but right now it sure looks like the ceiling for sergachev is a lot higher than Drouins given his seniority and performance this season. 

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If we had shipped an established problem player who went to a new team and barely produced for a very young dman who even cracked and held a roster spot at that age we would be singing bergy’s praises so on the reverse side I think any criticism is justified. 

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kaos    6

If Jonathan Drouin LW the 3rd overall pick of 2013 draft out of QMJHL turns into Jon Draper LW 3rd overall pick of 2013 draft out of WHL, does the Sergachev for Draper/Drouin trade still happen?

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Habsfan    60
7 hours ago, kaos said:

If Jonathan Drouin LW the 3rd overall pick of 2013 draft out of QMJHL turns into Jon Draper LW 3rd overall pick of 2013 draft out of WHL, does the Sergachev for Draper/Drouin trade still happen?

Good question. To be honest, I'm not sure that it does.

 

One thing that many have pointed out and I think is important to keep in mind when comparing Sergachev with Drouin is that Sergachev went to an actual cup contending team, whereas Drouin is stuck with a bottom feeder. It's a easier to look good when you have guys like Stamkos, Kucherov, Hedman, Namestnikov and Johnson on your team.

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DON    38
7 hours ago, kaos said:

If Jonathan Drouin LW the 3rd overall pick of 2013 draft out of QMJHL turns into Jon Draper LW 3rd overall pick of 2013 draft out of WHL, does the Sergachev for Draper/Drouin trade still happen?

Who is Jon Draper, don't get it?

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Habsfan    60
10 minutes ago, DON said:

Who is Jon Draper, don't get it?

I think he's talking about the fact that Drouin is French... Had he been called Draper, MB wouldn't have made the deal.

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DON    38
4 minutes ago, Habsfan said:

I think he's talking about the fact that Drouin is French... Had he been called Draper, MB wouldn't have made the deal.

Really?

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1 hour ago, DON said:

Really?

 

Quite possible IMHO. After all, Drouin's public expressions of anger at management are the sort of thing that would normally cause MB to flee for the hills ("poor character").

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Commandant    673
9 hours ago, kaos said:

If Jonathan Drouin LW the 3rd overall pick of 2013 draft out of QMJHL turns into Jon Draper LW 3rd overall pick of 2013 draft out of WHL, does the Sergachev for Draper/Drouin trade still happen?

 

Because the Habs have drafted 0 french players in the last two drafts. 

 

Because he overpaid Karl Alzner, cause he's french. 

 

Traded Subban for Weber due to the French factor...

 

 

 

Oh wait, french had nothing to do with those moves....   

I mean the other recent french moves involve trading for Danault (a win for Bergevin) and Deslauriers (another win for Bergevin) so no, I don't think its about the French factor. 

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DON    38
2 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Quite possible IMHO. After all, Drouin's public expressions of anger at management are the sort of thing that would normally cause MB to flee for the hills ("poor character").

Simply BS!

He has offered contracts to many UFAs who arnt from Quebec. In bigger deal was Weber French, did it matter?

Does he mind he is from Quebec, of course not, but Yzerman didn't draft him 3rd because he was French.

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xXx..CK..xXx    183
46 minutes ago, DON said:

Simply BS!

He has offered contracts to many UFAs who arnt from Quebec. In bigger deal was Weber French, did it matter?

Does he mind he is from Quebec, of course not, but Yzerman didn't draft him 3rd because he was French.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if Yzerman had it in the back of his own mind to target Montreal as a trading partner due to said reasons. One thing that's often overlooked is that Tampa Bay was trading from somewhat of a weak position due to how the whole Drouin situation was unraveling. I'm not saying that Bergevin himself targets French players, but I can see how we would have been one of the only teams to offer fair value for Drouin.

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DON    38
19 hours ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

It wouldn't surprise me at all if Yzerman had it in the back of his own mind to target Montreal as a trading partner due to said reasons. One thing that's often overlooked is that Tampa Bay was trading from somewhat of a weak position due to how the whole Drouin situation was unraveling. I'm not saying that Bergevin himself targets French players, but I can see how we would have been one of the only teams to offer fair value for Drouin.

Yzerman drafted Drouin because he was French, just to deal him to Habs? Unlikely I think.

Never heard any other offers Stevie had. But, gotta call BS again and you know you know nothing about who and what was offered by any other teams, do you?

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According to Lightning fans, trading Drouin wasn't the plan. Tampa shuffled their deck so he didn't have to be moved for the expansion draft. He had bad blood with Cooper but it looked like they could work it out. Yzerman previously wanted Galchenyuk+ for Drouin.

 

I think what happened was a pro scout said that Sergachev was special and the Tampa defence would be set for a decade with Hedman/Sergachev. But Yzerman didn't want to give Drouin up for a 19 year old. That's why there was the conditional second round pick. And Bergevin wanted Drouin and his scouts likely said he's a top centre waiting to happen. They make the trade, and it's clear who's shots were right.

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