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5 years from now this team will need a rebuild.. Will fans and media allow it done the right way??


Habsfan1989

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3 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

Where did i say that?
  This is the indictment of Bergevin.  Fix the problem already.

 

I said it was the Biggest problem, and has not been addressed. 

 

You like to put words in other people's mouths when you don't have a way to refute their points.  Make it seem as if they are saying things they didn't say, "cup winner or...best team ever".  Your strawman argument doesn't play with me. 

 

Getting a centre would put this team closer to the group of true contenders... it doesn't guarantee a cup, but at least it gives them a much better chance than they have now.   

And you think this is news to Bergevin and crew, or that you know something they don't? Or that they have sat back and made little attempt to ice the best team possible?

What is your point?

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35 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

Where did i say that?

 

I said it was the Biggest problem, and has not been addressed. 

 

You like to put words in other people's mouths when you don't have a way to refute their points.  Make it seem as if they are saying things they didn't say, "cup winner or...best team ever".  Your strawman argument doesn't play with me. 

 

Getting a centre would put this team closer to the group of true contenders... it doesn't guarantee a cup, but at least it gives them a much better chance than they have now.   

Agree totally. but we aren't getting Tavares at the moment, Hanzel at the deadline would of been a clear mistake given what he fetched. What C could be had for sherghachev at the moment? Duschene? No thank you.  a block buster for McKinnon would be a great option but sherghachev alone wouldn't get that done either. Little would be a good find but no for scherg.

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36 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

The "noise" about leadership comes from MB, when he acquired Weber. It was one of the big strengths he cited when he made the trade and those comments came after his post season conference citing poor/lack of leadership as being one of the reasons for the habs collapse.  Than after making the deal and raving about Weber's leadership after the disappointing playoffs this year, MB again cited leadership as an issue, and said the team was fragile.  This after trading for Weber and citing the great leadership he would bring, as well as overpaying Shaw for the great leadership Shaw would bring.  

 

If if you find the leader stuff old and boring, maybe you should write a letter to MB to stop using it as an excuse for losing every year.

 

As as far as Subban being the #3 Dman in nashville, you do realize he either led or was #2 in ice time for most of the games during a he playoffs and the undependable, unreliable, poor defensive player was used to shutdown the other team's top lines - something Weber was unable to do in previous years against the same teams.

You are taking me out of context.

He is in fact the 3rd defence men out on the 2nd PP unit

 he's also the 3rd defence men out on there 2nd pair

Yes he plays substantial minutes which is why I also said 1 of 4 defence...

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thats what I miss more so then anything on ice. BUT, can we finally put this leadership or bad for the room rhetoric behind us?? 

 

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The thing with the "leadership" canard is:

 

1. It is a common trope of those defending the trade

2. Bergevin himself cited "leadership" as a major issue when the disaster of 2016 ended, and then proceeded to make a trade for a guy who is routinely praised as some super leader. This leads to the reasonable inference that Bergevin himself, like a dummy, had been smoking from that particular crack pipe.

 

Since the trade transparently failed to make the team any better on the ice, we needn't both discussing the respective merits and demerits of the players involved. We shortened the Cup window without making the team better. The end.

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I too would like to know where these #1 centers are supposed to come from, there's only a handful of them in the world. Yes, there are a couple teams that were able to acquire one in the last 5 years, but that doesn't mean that we had the package that team was looking for. You can't just force someone to trade with you. We can mock by saying "it's hard", but I've yet to read one feasible solution. Bergevin is arguably the most active GM in the league, do we actually think he hasn't been trying to get a center? I think it's safe to assume he had some deals on the table over the years but the cost was too high. Or do we want to overpay to get one? Serious question

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Just now, illWill said:

I too would like to know where these #1 centers are supposed to come from, there's only a handful of them in the world. Yes, there are a couple teams that were able to acquire one in the last 5 years, but that doesn't mean that we had the package that team was looking for. You can't just force someone to trade with you. We can mock by saying "it's hard", but I've yet to read one feasible solution. Bergevin is arguably the most active GM in the league, do we actually think he hasn't been trying to get a center? I think it's safe to assume he had some deals on the table over the years but the cost was too high. 

 

It's not that this team lacks a stud #1C. It doesn't even have a #2 C, except for the giant question mark that is Galchenyuk.

 

Now, other GMs have managed to go out and acquire legit #1 C, but let's give Bergy the benefit of the doubt on that. I'd like to know what is so crushingly hard about acquiring ANY serviceable top-6 C, period.

 

That being said, IF the organization FINALLY stops jerking around with Galchenyuk, and maybe even has the imagination to try Drouin at C, the solution to the problem could already be on the roster. What I do know is that Danault is not a top-6 C and that it is delusional to pretend otherwise.

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Guest Stogey24
4 minutes ago, illWill said:

I too would like to know where these #1 centers are supposed to come from, there's only a handful of them in the world. Yes, there are a couple teams that were able to acquire one in the last 5 years, but that doesn't mean that we had the package that team was looking for. You can't just force someone to trade with you. We can mock by saying "it's hard", but I've yet to read one feasible solution. Bergevin is arguably the most active GM in the league, do we actually think he hasn't been trying to get a center? I think it's safe to assume he had some deals on the table over the years but the cost was too high. 

You know what a feasible solution is, draft players and development them, so you have trade chips to acquire a centre. 

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38 minutes ago, DON said:

And you think this is news to Bergevin and crew, or that you know something they don't? Or that they have sat back and made little attempt to ice the best team possible?

What is your point?

Point is we are wasting away good years of low cap rate of price and patch. All the while burning cap savings on plex while not even making a splash on the UFA market outside 4th Centers that can win face offs 

 

But lets see how he spends 9 million while using plex cap savings go to price extension 

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25 minutes ago, Stogey24 said:

You know what a feasible solution is, draft players and development them, so you have trade chips to acquire a centre. 

Do you mean like

 

Sergachev

Gallagher

Subban 

Price

Pacioretty

Lehkonen

Gallagher

Galchenyuk

 

 

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4 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

It's not that this team lacks a stud #1C. It doesn't even have a #2 C, except for the giant question mark that is Galchenyuk.

 

Now, other GMs have managed to go out and acquire legit #1 C, but let's give Bergy the benefit of the doubt on that. I'd like to know what is so crushingly hard about acquiring ANY serviceable top-6 C, period.

 

That being said, IF the organization FINALLY stops jerking around with Galchenyuk, and maybe even has the imagination to try Drouin at C, the solution to the problem could already be on the roster. What I do know is that Danault is not a top-6 C and that it is delusional to pretend otherwise.

I don't see why it's delusional to think Danault can't be a good 200ft  2C. LY was his first full season as a starting C and even early on in the season he was on on the wing. He also didn't look to out of place and performed admirably when faced with harder competition on the top line. Who is to say this 24 year old doesn't have another level to his game. He has seemed to play well in a major role on essentially every team and league he's ever played in...  remember he's in the same draft class as beaulieu.. so this coming year will be very telling.

if he gets his offensive stats up this season and contributes more on the score sheet, I can't see why not. If there's no continued progression then a good 3rd liner He'll be.

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10 minutes ago, illWill said:

Do you mean like

 

Sergachev

Gallagher

Subban 

Price

Pacioretty

Lehkonen

Gallagher

Galchenyuk

 

 

Much as I'd like to be able to offload my Habitual existential angst in a postmodern matriarchal reflexive defense of inclusiveness by attacking l'etranger... read GM...I think MB has probably done about as well as he can and so I am forced to return yet again to that one sure hope of my fragile sensibilities in that final Pure Act of Aquinas and Aristotle and pray we have a fun year. :pray:

 

Roughly.

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52 minutes ago, IN THE HEARTS OF MEN said:

Point is we are wasting away good years of low cap rate of price and patch.

Wasting away? Won the division is wasting way...tough crowd. A big proportion of critics also says have no prospects in farm system, so without touching prospect pool/picks what is your big suggestion so to not waste years?

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1 minute ago, DON said:

Wasting away? Won the division is wasting way...tough crowd. A big proportion of critics also says have no prospects in farm system, so without touching prospect pool/picks what is your big suggestion so to not waste years?

wasting away meaning not taking the chance, the plunge but we could always

 

-sign a significant C on the free agent market not named manny MalHoltra (no offence manny)

-deal plex away and try a new look at C?

- trade significant draft picks to secure any other player.... 

- wait for a Micheal McCarron or Kyle Chipcura or Louie LeBlanc to emerge

-fast track a kid just recently drafted...

 

 

the point is 5 years of DD later with plex now on the outside looking in at top 6 duties and danault and galchenyuk are still question marks. we have a stalled current prospect pool but drouin and Lehkonan just bought us some time to develop more over the coming seasons. the key remains this 9 million to be spent

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8 minutes ago, IN THE HEARTS OF MEN said:

wasting away meaning not taking the chance, the plunge but we could always

 

-sign a significant C on the free agent market not named manny MalHoltra (no offence many) Sure, but is no top six centre in the UFA market, maybe Joe Thorton but none starter. 

-deal plex away and try a new look at C? Who will take his contract...no one, non starter until trade deadline. Try a new look, not sure what that means...Danault, Drouin, Galchenyuk?

- trade significant draft picks to secure any other player.... We cant, as I said most HabFans are whining about how thin the prospect pool already is...so again most are against going the NY Ranger route.

- wait for a Micheal McCarron or Kyle Chipcura or Louie LeBlanc to emerge ??

-fast track a kid just recently drafted... Illogical and wont happen with a Juulsen or Poehling, so again fantasy idea.

 

 

the point is 5 years of DD later with plex now on the outside looking in at top 6 duties and danault and galchenyuk are still question marks. we have a stalled current prospect pool but drouin and Lehkonan just bought us some time to develop more over the coming seasons. the key remains this 9 million to be spent Is important how the $9m is spent but not sure what has to do with wasting years?

 

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2 hours ago, DON said:

And you think this is news to Bergevin and crew, or that you know something they don't? Or that they have sat back and made little attempt to ice the best team possible?

What is your point?

 

As Josh Donaldson said, "This isn't the try league. This is the get it done league."

 

I don't care how hard he's tried to get a centre, the fact is that his job is to fix this team's problems and make it a contender.  This is his sixth off-season in charge, we needs to stop with trying being good enough.  Get it done, or let someone else take the reins who can get it done. 

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If you commit to a temporary solution

If you commit to an aging veteran

If you put the blame solely on the player

If you don't acquire anyone at free agency (except one washed up centre you play on the wing)

If you don't develop anyone internally (and blame it all on the 2009-2011 management, when the guy running the draft is still there)

If you don't trade for anyone (because you have a well documented reputation for asking too much of your assets, like two second round picks for Tinordi)

 

You never have to take responsibility for your failure to acquire top six centres. 

 

(And I bet if you asked Bergevin he would tell you that's unfair. He got Danault, who had 30 even strength points at centre.)

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Guest Stogey24
1 hour ago, illWill said:

Do you mean like

 

Sergachev

Gallagher

Subban 

Price

Pacioretty

Lehkonen

Gallagher

Galchenyuk

 

 

Price, Subban,Gallagher, Pacioretty weren't drafted by Bergevin... (i see you put Gallagher twice to make the list look longer);)

 

Besides from picking in the top 10(which I could pull an nhl caliber player from) this team has seriously bombed in the first round...

 

As much as I have defended Mccarron his development is a bit worrisome, Scherbak is looking more and more like a bust, Juulsen has hope, but we've seen how this organization develops D-men----> Beaulieu and Tinordi may as well be thrown into this too, as their entire development was basically under Marc..  

 

Maybe it's not 100% Bergevin's fault for the shitty development of players, but he's aloud his staff to keep their jobs when they're 100% under performing. 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Stogey24 said:

Price, Subban,Gallagher, Pacioretty weren't drafted by Bergevin... (i see you put Gallagher twice to make the list look longer);)

 

Besides from picking in the top 10(which I could pull an nhl caliber player from) this team has seriously bombed in the first round...

 

As much as I have defended Mccarron his development is a bit worrisome, Scherbak is looking more and more like a bust, Juulsen has hope, but we've seen how this organization develops D-men----> Beaulieu and Tinordi may as well be thrown into this too, as their entire development was basically under Marc..  

 

Maybe it's not 100% Bergevin's fault for the shitty development of players, but he's aloud his staff to keep their jobs when they're 100% under performing. 

 

 

 

I'm on vacation and day drinking, hence the double Gallagher entry :quebec:

 

I'm on board with whatever that is going on in the AHL needing to change. But just like you can't blame only the player, you can't blame only the management. These are professional men that need to become the best version of themselves. Even then sometimes that's not good enough.

 

From what I understand Bergevin lets Timmins and his staff make the selections. I think it's a good thing to have trust like that and to not step on anyone's toes. Nothing worse than not being allowed to do what you're paid to do. That being said, perhaps there should be a change in the scouting department if the results aren't there. I know they used to be but it's debatable in recent years. 

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3 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said:

The "noise" about leadership comes from MB, when he acquired Weber. It was one of the big strengths he cited when he made the trade and those comments came after his post season conference citing poor/lack of leadership as being one of the reasons for the habs collapse.  Than after making the deal and raving about Weber's leadership after the disappointing playoffs this year, MB again cited leadership as an issue, and said the team was fragile.  This after trading for Weber and citing the great leadership he would bring, as well as overpaying Shaw for the great leadership Shaw would bring.  

 

If if you find the leader stuff old and boring, maybe you should write a letter to MB to stop using it as an excuse for losing every year.

 

As as far as Subban being the #3 Dman in nashville, you do realize he either led or was #2 in ice time for most of the games during a he playoffs and the undependable, unreliable, poor defensive player was used to shutdown the other team's top lines - something Weber was unable to do in previous years against the same teams.

 

Somebody stop the fight! I haven't seen this many haymakers on the board since the days of 30/31.

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2 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

The thing with the "leadership" canard is:

 

1. It is a common trope of those defending the trade

2. Bergevin himself cited "leadership" as a major issue when the disaster of 2016 ended, and then proceeded to make a trade for a guy who is routinely praised as some super leader. This leads to the reasonable inference that Bergevin himself, like a dummy, had been smoking from that particular crack pipe.

 

Since the trade transparently failed to make the team any better on the ice, we needn't both discussing the respective merits and demerits of the players involved. We shortened the Cup window without making the team better. The end.

 

He made a trade for leadership before firing a coach. How dumb! 

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2 hours ago, Commandant said:

 

As Josh Donaldson said, "This isn't the try league. This is the get it done league."

 

I don't care how hard he's tried to get a centre, the fact is that his job is to fix this team's problems and make it a contender.  This is his sixth off-season in charge, we needs to stop with trying being good enough.  Get it done, or let someone else take the reins who can get it done. 

Again, you come up with odd suggestion. But OK, wonder why is Bergevin is only trying to be 'good enough' and not interested in winning a cup? Maybe he is scared to make a big trade...nooo that's not it; maybe he just dosent care if wins a cup...quite unlikely; maybe you can explain why Bergy not big on winning a cup and is only trying to be 'good enough'? 

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23 minutes ago, DON said:

Again, you come up with odd suggestion. But OK, wonder why is Bergevin is only trying to be 'good enough' and not interested in winning a cup? Maybe he is scared to make a big trade...nooo that's not it; maybe he just dosent care if wins a cup...quite unlikely; maybe you can explain why Bergy not big on winning a cup and is only trying to be 'good enough'? 

It is not that he doesn't want to win a cup, maybe it is too hard. This is a guy who said he would not mortgage the future and would build through the draft. That plan seems to be forgotten about. We have very few prospects and those we do have he trades cause they aren't good enough. Developing prospects is not this team's  forte'. Maybe he should work on that. Get an AHL coach with 1/2 a clue. Find some guys who can help the youngsters develop. Basic hockey 101.

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48 minutes ago, DON said:

Again, you come up with odd suggestion. But OK, wonder why is Bergevin is only trying to be 'good enough' and not interested in winning a cup? Maybe he is scared to make a big trade...nooo that's not it; maybe he just dosent care if wins a cup...quite unlikely; maybe you can explain why Bergy not big on winning a cup and is only trying to be 'good enough'? 


I never said he was trying to be "good enough".  Once again, you either deliberately changed my words to something you could argue against, or you misinterpreted them. 
 

Is Bergevin trying to build a cup winner? sure. 

 

But the big issue is that he hasn't solved this team's centre issue.  How many teams have won a cup without a quality centre?

 

You suggested he is trying to fix the centre issue, but hasn't been able to. 

What I'm saying is trying to find a centre isn't good enough after 6 years.  Thats not an excuse anymore.  

 

I'm sorry after 6 years Trying to Fix the Teams #1 Problem isn't enough.  Either get the job done, or give way to someone who might be able . 

 

After six years, I'm trying, isn't a good enough excuse for why this team has the same problem its had all this time. 

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