5 years from now this team will need a rebuild.. Will fans and media allow it done the right way??

[xXx..CK..xXx]

1 hour ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

The case against MB is not based on a still-incomplete off-season. It's cumulative, based on overall performance, including his atrocious drafting/development.

I agree with that being the way it should be but the reality is that the ship has already sailed for those who are arguing against him. There's little he could have done to please those who have already dumped him out of the bus. Whether it would have been signing Joe Thornton to 8 million or doing nothing at all, both would have been bad moves for that group. Perhaps either of those moves actually would have been bad, but let's just throw in everything in the middle. Still bad.

 

The problem begins when one can't have a rational discussion about the present because one is stuck judging the past. It's important to look at things in less of a macro level at times, otherwise it's hard to value a statement.

 

I'm not ecstatic about our off season thus far but I'm ready to be proven wrong and there are a lot of question marks in a positive sense within our roster as well.  

 

I was simply responding to the claim that we are stagnating as a team when it was also shown that the team has improved analytically this off season by the same person. It's true that it's only a slight improvement, but many teams, especially the already better teams, got worse and so while I don't agree with it, any improvement should be given credit, to be honest.

 

 

49 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

I was on the fire Bergevin train before this off-season began.  I was on it after his complete failure at the trade deadline.  This hasn't changed. 

 

As for this offseason, he's made this team a small bit better than it was last season.  That means he's not in the top 3 worst off-seasons in the NHL, which is what I sadi.  That still doesn't mean that what he's done is good enough, as he still hasn't addressed the core issue. 

As I said, I was just responding to the fact that you said Bergevin improved our team, whether slight or not in one post and then said our team hasn't improved to prove a point in the next. As much as I've pointed out the center issue myself in some debates on here about this off season, the answer can already be found on our roster if need be, making the whole topic seem silly come January.

 

I'm not saying it will happen, but a team that has 

 

Drouin

Galchenyuk

Plekanec

 

as their top 3 centers along with Carey Price and Shea Weber on the back end, and Max Pacioretty up front can be competitive. 

 

The only issue I have with Bergevin here is that he hasn't made it clear that he believes Galchenyuk or Drouin are outright centers. I believe there should be some communication there between coach and GM because otherwise they don't even know what they have. Outside of the confusion of who plays where, we possess the talent to be strong up the middle. I agree Danault should not be a top 6 center on this squad but he doesn't have to be. The only question mark becomes Julien.

[Toronthab]

13 hours ago, Lovett's Magnatones said:

 

Just be grateful!!!!!

 

You're lucky we even have 82 games, children are starving in China.

 

We owe the franchise nothing. This is entertainment. If the team is stuck in neutral, and frankly, about as exacting as watching grass grow, we can change the channel.

 

That really is good advice. 

 

It really is criminal that i make these poor bastards play and 82 game season just so Im entertained..

[Lovett's Magnatones]

One fact the BergeyBoyz on here will admit is that Commandant/MoLG/CC isn't a "who's who" of complainers on here. I've been 50/50. Really liked Therrien, wanted GarbageBin scrapped since the end of 2014-2015. Fan enthusiasm is at its lowest I can remember for before a season. Maybe since the Andre Savard days.

[Commandant]

8 hours ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

I agree with that being the way it should be but the reality is that the ship has already sailed for those who are arguing against him. There's little he could have done to please those who have already dumped him out of the bus. Whether it would have been signing Joe Thornton to 8 million or doing nothing at all, both would have been bad moves for that group. Perhaps either of those moves actually would have been bad, but let's just throw in everything in the middle. Still bad.

 

The problem begins when one can't have a rational discussion about the present because one is stuck judging the past. It's important to look at things in less of a macro level at times, otherwise it's hard to value a statement.

 

I'm not ecstatic about our off season thus far but I'm ready to be proven wrong and there are a lot of question marks in a positive sense within our roster as well.  

 

I was simply responding to the claim that we are stagnating as a team when it was also shown that the team has improved analytically this off season by the same person. It's true that it's only a slight improvement, but many teams, especially the already better teams, got worse and so while I don't agree with it, any improvement should be given credit, to be honest.

 

 

As I said, I was just responding to the fact that you said Bergevin improved our team, whether slight or not in one post and then said our team hasn't improved to prove a point in the next. As much as I've pointed out the center issue myself in some debates on here about this off season, the answer can already be found on our roster if need be, making the whole topic seem silly come January.

 

I'm not saying it will happen, but a team that has 

 

Drouin

Galchenyuk

Plekanec

 

as their top 3 centers along with Carey Price and Shea Weber on the back end, and Max Pacioretty up front can be competitive. 

 

The only issue I have with Bergevin here is that he hasn't made it clear that he believes Galchenyuk or Drouin are outright centers. I believe there should be some communication there between coach and GM because otherwise they don't even know what they have. Outside of the confusion of who plays where, we possess the talent to be strong up the middle. I agree Danault should not be a top 6 center on this squad but he doesn't have to be. The only question mark becomes Julien.

 

The issue is the stagnation of the team.   If you look at the chart its a very, very small improvement.  This team needs a little more than that. And we all know what position is needed. 

[Machine of Loving Grace]

Something odd to me is that many of us were unhappy with the LD in 2015-2016. Markov was getting older, Beaulieu was either not good enough or Therrien wouldn't give him a shot with Subban, and Emelin was an overpaid hit reel. It wasn't enough in 15-16. I think we were all in agreement of that at the time. 

 

Well now Markov is in no way replaced, Beaulieu was traded, Benn was kept but prefers the right, nobody mentions Davidson as if he's not even on the team, and Emelin got picked by Vegas (which we were all happy about) only for Bergevin to then sign a player similar in his lack of offensive punch in Alzner (which many are happy about?), plus Schlemko who could be good, he was good as a third pair D, who knows if he can handle more. 

 

That's no clear improvement to 15-16, even if Markov comes back, but that's fine? The only problem is at centre? What?

[Guest Stogey24]

13 minutes ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

Something odd to me is that many of us were unhappy with the LD in 2015-2016. Markov was getting older, Beaulieu was either not good enough or Therrien wouldn't give him a shot with Subban, and Emelin was an overpaid hit reel. It wasn't enough in 15-16. I think we were all in agreement of that at the time. 

 

Well now Markov is in no way replaced, Beaulieu was traded, Benn was kept but prefers the right, nobody mentions Davidson as if he's not even on the team, and Emelin got picked by Vegas (which we were all happy about) only for Bergevin to then sign a player similar in his lack of offensive punch in Alzner (which many are happy about?), plus Schlemko who could be good, he was good as a third pair D, who knows if he can handle more. 

 

That's no clear improvement to 15-16, even if Markov comes back, but that's fine? The only problem is at centre? What?

Like I said, wait until you see the transition game this year. They're going to struggle mightily 

[Commandant]

56 minutes ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

Something odd to me is that many of us were unhappy with the LD in 2015-2016. Markov was getting older, Beaulieu was either not good enough or Therrien wouldn't give him a shot with Subban, and Emelin was an overpaid hit reel. It wasn't enough in 15-16. I think we were all in agreement of that at the time. 

 

Well now Markov is in no way replaced, Beaulieu was traded, Benn was kept but prefers the right, nobody mentions Davidson as if he's not even on the team, and Emelin got picked by Vegas (which we were all happy about) only for Bergevin to then sign a player similar in his lack of offensive punch in Alzner (which many are happy about?), plus Schlemko who could be good, he was good as a third pair D, who knows if he can handle more. 

 

That's no clear improvement to 15-16, even if Markov comes back, but that's fine? The only problem is at centre? What?

 

Alzner is much better at breaking out the puck than Emelin was.  He is a way better passer.  He also doesn't get himself out of position going for big hits like Emelin either.  He's a superior player compared to Emelin. If you are comparing him to Markov, he's not. 

 

Schlemko is better defensively than Beaulieu, but can still move the puck.  The upside might not be as high, but his floor is also higher.  Judging by Beaulieu's year, its more like Beaulieu is at his floor than his ceiling most nights anyway.  I'm fine with this change too. 

 

Jerabek is the wild card.  Who knows how good he is.  Who is he replacing though? Nesterov.  He honestly can't be worse than Nesterov. 

 

 

So 

 

Alzner > Emelin

Schlemko vs Beaulieu is at minimum a wash, and may be an upgrade. 

Jerabek > Nesterov. 

 

 

In the end, the Habs have held the cap space to re-sign Markov, or to replace him. 

 

[DON]

Are the Habs waiting on Markov and already have a plan 'B' in place if he doesn't? Which may mean another team also is likely waiting on Markov's decision, or is Bergy likely still working on which plan 'B' to spend the extra cash on?

[Link67]

2 hours ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

Something odd to me is that many of us were unhappy with the LD in 2015-2016. Markov was getting older, Beaulieu was either not good enough or Therrien wouldn't give him a shot with Subban, and Emelin was an overpaid hit reel. It wasn't enough in 15-16. I think we were all in agreement of that at the time. 

 

Well now Markov is in no way replaced, Beaulieu was traded, Benn was kept but prefers the right, nobody mentions Davidson as if he's not even on the team, and Emelin got picked by Vegas (which we were all happy about) only for Bergevin to then sign a player similar in his lack of offensive punch in Alzner (which many are happy about?), plus Schlemko who could be good, he was good as a third pair D, who knows if he can handle more. 

 

That's no clear improvement to 15-16, even if Markov comes back, but that's fine? The only problem is at centre? What?

 

There is a clear improvement If Markov does come back, we have otherwise replaced every Dman who has left with someone better while adding a wild card who could surprise everyone if he adapts to the NHL. The only glaring issue going into the season is a top Center unless Markov does not return or is not replaced adequately, how do you not see that? Any aspect of a team can be improved even areas that are already good, but the glaring issue on this team will not be its defense next year if Markov Returns, It will be a top Center.

 

If this current team Had Price, an actual Top Center, and a top 4 D of Weber Markov Petry and Alzner, it would be very competitive, and very likely the best team we have seen at the Bell Center. A top center has been lacking severely for years, A top center would improve this current roster in the biggest way compared to any other roster addition at this point. It is and should be the Priority, deviating from it only in the circumstance Markov does not return, at which point our LD becomes a glaring issue as well which would be a bit quicker and easier to fix than a top C.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

2 hours ago, Commandant said:

Alzner is much better at breaking out the puck than Emelin was.  He is a way better passer.  He also doesn't get himself out of position going for big hits like Emelin either.  He's a superior player compared to Emelin. If you are comparing him to Markov, he's not. 

 

Schlemko is better defensively than Beaulieu, but can still move the puck.  The upside might not be as high, but his floor is also higher.  Judging by Beaulieu's year, its more like Beaulieu is at his floor than his ceiling most nights anyway.  I'm fine with this change too. 

 

Jerabek is the wild card.  Who knows how good he is.  Who is he replacing though? Nesterov.  He honestly can't be worse than Nesterov. 

 

 

So 

 

Alzner > Emelin

Schlemko vs Beaulieu is at minimum a wash, and may be an upgrade. 

Jerabek > Nesterov. 

 

 

In the end, the Habs have held the cap space to re-sign Markov, or to replace him. 

 

You still acted like Davidson doesn't exist. That still doesn't fix the problem we had two years ago: what do you do when Markov is done? Who replaces Markov? There's no replacement. There's only cap space. 

 

And the problem was that the defence in 2015-2016 was not good enough so "an improvement" isn't enough. Danault is an improvement to Desharnais but is it enough? Honestly the only guy I'm happy with is Schlemko. He'll be good as a third pair D if used that way. Anything more is possibly too much unless he breaks out at 30.

 

I've expressed my issue with Alzner already. Habs needed to get rid of Emelin (which they did) and find a puck moving defenceman for the top four to replace that role. They didn't get that. They got Anton Volchenkov.

[Scott462]

1 hour ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

You still acted like Davidson doesn't exist. That still doesn't fix the problem we had two years ago: what do you do when Markov is done? Who replaces Markov? There's no replacement. There's only cap space. 

 

And the problem was that the defence in 2015-2016 was not good enough so "an improvement" isn't enough. Danault is an improvement to Desharnais but is it enough? Honestly the only guy I'm happy with is Schlemko. He'll be good as a third pair D if used that way. Anything more is possibly too much unless he breaks out at 30.

 

I've expressed my issue with Alzner already. Habs needed to get rid of Emelin (which they did) and find a puck moving defenceman for the top four to replace that role. They didn't get that. They got Anton Volchenkov.

 

They also needed a steady defender for the top 4 to play with Petry who is more of a puck mover. Last year Petry more often than not had to be the steady defender for his pairing, now he might have the chance to do his thing knowing Alzner has his back.

[Lovett's Magnatones]

41 minutes ago, Scott462 said:

 

They also needed a steady defender for the top 4 to play with Petry who is more of a puck mover. Last year Petry more often than not had to be the steady defender for his pairing, now he might have the chance to do his thing knowing Alzner has his back.

 

I don't know which player is supposed to move the puck? They have guys like Weber and Alzner that make a good first pass, but to whom? Phillip Danault? 

[Link67]

49 minutes ago, Lovett's Magnatones said:

 

I don't know which player is supposed to move the puck? They have guys like Weber and Alzner that make a good first pass, but to whom? Phillip Danault? 

 

Weber, Markov, Petry, Alzner, Schlemko and even Benn, are all very reliable at the crisp first pass game, i'm not sure where you guys are going with this unless you mean who in that D is going to carry the puck, at which point Petry is pretty well the only one who will actively do it most often. 

 

 

[Commandant]

13 hours ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

You still acted like Davidson doesn't exist. That still doesn't fix the problem we had two years ago: what do you do when Markov is done? Who replaces Markov? There's no replacement. There's only cap space. 

 

And the problem was that the defence in 2015-2016 was not good enough so "an improvement" isn't enough. Danault is an improvement to Desharnais but is it enough? Honestly the only guy I'm happy with is Schlemko. He'll be good as a third pair D if used that way. Anything more is possibly too much unless he breaks out at 30.

 

I've expressed my issue with Alzner already. Habs needed to get rid of Emelin (which they did) and find a puck moving defenceman for the top four to replace that role. They didn't get that. They got Anton Volchenkov.

 

1) I was comparing the defence from the end of last year to the start of this year.  I ignored Davidson and Benn, cause nothing needed to be said.  Its status quo with both guys.  I don't expect either to be better or worse than they were last year.  They aren't at ages where you expect to see big jumps from them, they are who they are. 

 

2) What do you do when Markov is done with the extra cap space.... you either hope someone like Mete or one of this years draftees is ready, or you make a trade, or you spend the cap space on a free agent.  Same place you are in today if you don't resign markov. 

 

3) I disagree that the 2015-16 defence was not good enough.  The Big issue is at C imo.  We lost a bunch of one goal games, and our offence went stone cold.  

 

 

 

 

[Guest Stogey24]

Did we need Sergchev more than Drouin? 

 

It's honestly feeling like it now, just saying. 

 

If you look at the trade we basically gave up Sergachev, 2nd rounder, 5.5 in cap space.

 

 

 

 

 

[Machine of Loving Grace]

1 hour ago, Commandant said:

2) What do you do when Markov is done with the extra cap space.... you either hope someone like Mete or one of this years draftees is ready, or you make a trade, or you spend the cap space on a free agent.  Same place you are in today if you don't resign markov. 

 

3) I disagree that the 2015-16 defence was not good enough.  The Big issue is at C imo.  We lost a bunch of one goal games, and our offence went stone cold.  

 

It's funny that you're AOK with the idea that Bergevin has had 6 years to fix centre but hasn't, but not okay with the idea he's completely failed being prepared to replace Markov.

 

2013-2017, only two Habs defencemen have more than five points in the playoffs: Subban and Markov. They "replaced" Subban with Weber. There isn't even a backup to Markov like Petry could be to Subban. The left defence is pretty much offensively inept without Markov, and there's absolutely nothing to replace him in the present or future. Except cap space! Can't wait to see what cap space can do in the playoffs.

 

(If you look at total defencemen scoring in the playoffs 2013-2017, if Markov doesn't return, the D scoring leaders still on the team would be Petry's 4 points in 18 games, Weber's 3 points in 6 games, and Benn's... 0 points in 6 games.)

[Scott462]

22 minutes ago, Stogey24 said:

Did we need Sergchev more than Drouin? 

 

It's honestly feeling like it now, just saying. 

 

If you look at the trade we basically gave up Sergachev, 2nd rounder, 5.5 in cap space.

 

 

 

 

 

 

No we needed Drouin more. Our problem is scoring not D and Drouin is young and will be a core member for a very long time. Drouin is also far more proven than Sergachev who is a relative unknown.

 

We have cap space why do we need more?

[Dalhabs]

Maybe we will save the caproom for the deadline, hope we are still in the playoffs and then swoop in and trade for Tavares who the Isles are desperate to trade away because they cant reach a deal.

With our capspace we dont have to dump a crappy contract in that trade and then we resign Tavares to 8 year 10.5M/year deal!

Make it happen MB! ?

 

[Lovett's Magnatones]

13 hours ago, Link67 said:

 

Weber, Markov, Petry, Alzner, Schlemko and even Benn, are all very reliable at the crisp first pass game, i'm not sure where you guys are going with this unless you mean who in that D is going to carry the puck, at which point Petry is pretty well the only one who will actively do it most often. 

 

 

 

What I mean is that we're in for another season of dump and chase, counter attack off the trap, and blow-the-zone footraces. Nobody can carry the play. This always works out well until the time of year when teams make game plans to shut down an offense...at which point the Habs offense looks about as dangerous as a tufted titmouse.

 

Jeff Petry is a 25 point guy with great vision, especially on the powerplay. He's never been a catalyst for an offense, and I wouldn't expect him to become the 40-50 point, 25 minute a night dman every good team needs.

 

Think:

 

Pittsburgh-Letang

Chicago-Keith

San Jose-Burns

Ottawa-Karlsson

Nashville-Whole top-4

St. Louis-Pietrangelo

Tampa Bay-Hedman

Columbus-Werenski

 

We get 40 points and the minutes out of Weber, but he gets more than half his points on the powerplay.

 

This is where I get concerned about Claude. The moves of the last deadline gave me more than a whiff of "zombie Bruin-ism." If they're trying to rebuild a 2011 Boston, we're in for some terrible hockey.

 

 

[DON]

13 hours ago, Link67 said:

 

Weber, Markov, Petry, Alzner, Schlemko and even Benn, are all very reliable at the crisp first pass game, i'm not sure where you guys are going with this unless you mean who in that D is going to carry the puck, at which point Petry is pretty well the only one who will actively do it most often. 

 

 

Curious what Jerabek will bring? He had good offense in Czech league, was d-man of year and put up same offense in KHL last year. Can he be a 2nd pairing guy perhaps?

http://habsprospects.com/jerabek.html

[DON]

1 hour ago, Stogey24 said:

Did we need Sergchev more than Drouin? 

 

It's honestly feeling like it now, just saying. 

 

If you look at the trade we basically gave up Sergachev, 2nd rounder, 5.5 in cap space.

Yes, need offense more than a teenage rookie d-man.

Vast majority are happy to see how good Drouin will be and with trade overall.

2nd rounder is null if Sergachev plays next year.

And you are complaining Drouin is overpaid?

[Lovett's Magnatones]

11 minutes ago, DON said:

Curious what Jerabek will bring? He had good offense in Czech league, was d-man of year and put up same offense in KHL last year. Can he be a 2nd pairing guy perhaps?

http://habsprospects.com/jerabek.html

 

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=76283

[Commandant]

2 hours ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

It's funny that you're AOK with the idea that Bergevin has had 6 years to fix centre but hasn't, but not okay with the idea he's completely failed being prepared to replace Markov.

 

2013-2017, only two Habs defencemen have more than five points in the playoffs: Subban and Markov. They "replaced" Subban with Weber. There isn't even a backup to Markov like Petry could be to Subban. The left defence is pretty much offensively inept without Markov, and there's absolutely nothing to replace him in the present or future. Except cap space! Can't wait to see what cap space can do in the playoffs.

 

(If you look at total defencemen scoring in the playoffs 2013-2017, if Markov doesn't return, the D scoring leaders still on the team would be Petry's 4 points in 18 games, Weber's 3 points in 6 games, and Benn's... 0 points in 6 games.)

 

Getting a LHD has been far easier than getting a C over recent years. 

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

1 hour ago, Lovett's Magnatones said:

 

What I mean is that we're in for another season of dump and chase, counter attack off the trap, and blow-the-zone footraces. Nobody can carry the play. This always works out well until the time of year when teams make game plans to shut down an offense...at which point the Habs offense looks about as dangerous as a tufted titmouse.

 

Jeff Petry is a 25 point guy with great vision, especially on the powerplay. He's never been a catalyst for an offense, and I wouldn't expect him to become the 40-50 point, 25 minute a night dman every good team needs.

 

Think:

 

Pittsburgh-Letang

Chicago-Keith

San Jose-Burns

Ottawa-Karlsson

Nashville-Whole top-4

St. Louis-Pietrangelo

Tampa Bay-Hedman

Columbus-Werenski

 

We get 40 points and the minutes out of Weber, but he gets more than half his points on the powerplay.

 

This is where I get concerned about Claude. The moves of the last deadline gave me more than a whiff of "zombie Bruin-ism." If they're trying to rebuild a 2011 Boston, we're in for some terrible hockey.

 

 

 

Honestly, I don't get it. Seemingly every team in hockey has moved, or is moving, in the direction of highly mobile, puck-moving defence corps. Bergevin seems to have a completely different model in mind; his vision seems to prioritize, not puck-moving per se, but a good outlet pass. You look at Weber, he doesn't really carry the puck - in this sense, he is a two-zone rather than a three-zone player - but rather he passes it out and then tries to get set up for his cannon at the point. (By contrast, Subban carried the puck a lot). Alzner lacks the point cannon, but his outlet pass is well-regarded. Even Benn is OK at clearing the puck out. The only prototypical puck-mover on the blueline right now is Petry. We have plumbers who can generally pass the puck effectively into the neutral zone.

 

That seems to be what Bergevin actually wants: it's up to the forwards, not the D, to carry the puck through the neutral zone and organize the attack.

 

I'm not sure why he would conclude that this is intrinsically preferable, or that puck-moving D are undesirable. It seems to reflect a very old-school mindset, a version of the old 'keep to your lane!' logic that Europeans and Russians helped to dislodge from the sport. Hell, it's almost a throwback to the pre-Bobby Orr view of defencemen.

 

My own view has always been that offence starts from the back end. The Big Three were each capable of single-handedly quarter-backing the transition from defence to offence. The Red Wings in their glory years always had guys like Lidstrom and Rafalski to do this. Even the plodding Devils Cup winners had Niedermeyer. So I just don't understand it. But maybe Bergevin is actually a genius who sees something the rest of us don't - it beats me.

 

 

[Commandant]

We traded a guy who would be Markov's replacement in 2-3 years, for a guy who replaces Radulov immediately. 

 

Short term, yeah we could have kept Sergachev and re-signed Radulov by giving him another 1 million a season, but would that have us further ahead?  How long til Radulov would need replacing considering he's a 30 year old forward?