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5 years from now this team will need a rebuild.. Will fans and media allow it done the right way??

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illWill    392
4 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

I'm not getting paid 3 million a year to find solutions. 

 

I'm also not privy to all the discussions with other GMs, agents, scouts, and other people who have the ability to make the deals. 

 

Expecting me to come up with a solution is silly. 

 

Expecting the man who is privy to those discussions, who is paid well to do that job, who has full control of the hockey operations, is not unreasonable. 

 

Add on the fact that we can watch other GMs acquire number 1 centres, and yes some blame is warranted after 6 off-seasons. 

 

I feel like I'm in bizzarro world, all i see is excuses for why the most important hole on this team is still not filled. 

 

If you're not privy to the conversations at hand then why do you have such a negative opinion of how he operates? Get it done? How about not getting ripped off in a transaction? I've yet to see that happen yet with this management. It's just another case of an armchair GM calling the shots from the sidelines. 

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Commandant    599

In six off-seasons you either have the ability to get the job done, or you don't. 

 

If after six off-seasons, he hasn't got the job done (while many of his colleagues are getting it done) all i hear from you is excuses. 

 

This isn't the try league, this is the get it done league. 

 

Again

 

1) Doesn't draft many centres in the top 2 rounds with offensive potential... just 1 in his first five drafts... 2 this year. 

2) Has been content to re-sign what he has to big money deals. 

3) Doesn't make an offer to a potential top six centre from russia.  Said centre signs for 2 years, 4.5 million per

4) Doesn't make an offer on Eric Staal.  Staal goes on to produce like a top 6 centre in Minnesota and is on a cheap 3 year deal. 

5) Doesn't get involved in one of the many trades for a top 6, while his fellow GMs are willing to pull the trigger. 

 

This is what we have seen happen over six years.

 

Meanwhile our centre situation gets worse with each passing year. 

 

So what do you call that?  What do you say if someone can do a job for 6 off-seasons, and not solve the biggest problem he is tasked with solving.  All while his colleagues are solving that same problem in a variety of ways. 

 

Of course you'll come up with yet another excuse, yet another deflection.  At what point does the GM get blamed?  He inherited a team with a great goalie.  With 2 great defencemen in Markov and Subban, with a great goal scorer in Pacioretty, with a number of solid pieces.  And all he had to do was finish the job by getting a number 1 centre for this group, and he can't do it. 

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I have never once said I'm smarter than Bergevin or that I would do a better job.

 

But that's the thing. GMs should be better than a fan on the street. If they are not, they shouldn't be running an NHL team. 

 

If you have left a hole that any person on the street could see for literally years, you can't just smugly say oh well, let's see you do better. It's not my job to do better. I don't have a job in this. I'm a fan. And I'm not pleased. 

 

Bergevin don't get fired one day because he was completely incompetent. He will be fired because he didn't do enough and made decisions that ultimately didn't make the change he wanted. That's a common reason for a GM to get fired. 

 

Honestly that's why I understand why folks defend Bergevin. He rarely makes a decision that can't have an excuse. He's a great politician. You can always pass the buck with something. And when he takes responsibility for something like 15-16, he does it to deflect focus on his staff while making a big trade that didn't address any real team problem. It bought his staff more time, and the only guy to take the fall was Therrien. And that's because the golden boy wanted him gone. 

 

I don't think people are crazy for defending him. It's not like he's lost the plot. The team is still good in the season, they still have a guy who could be in the hall of fame, and the 15-16 season is forgotten by most fans now when it was completely preventable. But at some point I wonder who sees how they always have a defence for the team he is in control of, yet supposedly he can't fix. 

 

Ah well. Enjoy the season. I certainly won't until Bergevin is fired. 

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illWill    392
2 hours ago, Commandant said:

In six off-seasons you either have the ability to get the job done, or you don't. 

 

If after six off-seasons, he hasn't got the job done (while many of his colleagues are getting it done) all i hear from you is excuses. 

 

This isn't the try league, this is the get it done league. 

 

Again

 

1) Doesn't draft many centres in the top 2 rounds with offensive potential... just 1 in his first five drafts... 2 this year. 

2) Has been content to re-sign what he has to big money deals. 

3) Doesn't make an offer to a potential top six centre from russia.  Said centre signs for 2 years, 4.5 million per

4) Doesn't make an offer on Eric Staal.  Staal goes on to produce like a top 6 centre in Minnesota and is on a cheap 3 year deal. 

5) Doesn't get involved in one of the many trades for a top 6, while his fellow GMs are willing to pull the trigger. 

 

This is what we have seen happen over six years.

 

Meanwhile our centre situation gets worse with each passing year. 

 

So what do you call that?  What do you say if someone can do a job for 6 off-seasons, and not solve the biggest problem he is tasked with solving.  All while his colleagues are solving that same problem in a variety of ways. 

 

Of course you'll come up with yet another excuse, yet another deflection.  At what point does the GM get blamed?  He inherited a team with a great goalie.  With 2 great defencemen in Markov and Subban, with a great goal scorer in Pacioretty, with a number of solid pieces.  And all he had to do was finish the job by getting a number 1 centre for this group, and he can't do it. 

 

I had yet another long response to this but decided to delete it. I'm done, have fun on this topic. I don't know how much I have to repeat myself. If a fan base can't appreciate the results that have been had, then maybe that fan base doesn't deserve them. 

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HabsWEST    11
2 hours ago, Commandant said:

In six off-seasons you either have the ability to get the job done, or you don't. 

 

If after six off-seasons, he hasn't got the job done (while many of his colleagues are getting it done) all i hear from you is excuses. 

 

This isn't the try league, this is the get it done league. 

 

Again

 

1) Doesn't draft many centres in the top 2 rounds with offensive potential... just 1 in his first five drafts... 2 this year. 

2) Has been content to re-sign what he has to big money deals. 

3) Doesn't make an offer to a potential top six centre from russia.  Said centre signs for 2 years, 4.5 million per

4) Doesn't make an offer on Eric Staal.  Staal goes on to produce like a top 6 centre in Minnesota and is on a cheap 3 year deal. 

5) Doesn't get involved in one of the many trades for a top 6, while his fellow GMs are willing to pull the trigger. 

 

This is what we have seen happen over six years.

 

Meanwhile our centre situation gets worse with each passing year. 

 

So what do you call that?  What do you say if someone can do a job for 6 off-seasons, and not solve the biggest problem he is tasked with solving.  All while his colleagues are solving that same problem in a variety of ways. 

 

Of course you'll come up with yet another excuse, yet another deflection.  At what point does the GM get blamed?  He inherited a team with a great goalie.  With 2 great defencemen in Markov and Subban, with a great goal scorer in Pacioretty, with a number of solid pieces.  And all he had to do was finish the job by getting a number 1 centre for this group, and he can't do it. 

 

I have lot to say on this, and you hit them all to topic! Thank you.

 

Here is one that has been on my mind and I had read long ago, I finally found the article.

 

In reference to 1 of 5 drafts , now 6 drafts, only 1 centre taken...in the top 2 rounds...

 

Bergevin is 2 months in GM role, but if he had his way and not let his scouts decide, he would NOT have picked that centre ..

 

 

"....Canadiens GM Marc Bergevin hinted to an audience at the PrimeTime Sports Management Conference , that if it would have been up to him, he would have drafted Rielly third overall that year. Or, if Ryan Murray had been available (he went second to Columbus), it would have been him...."

 

 

Here is the full article...:

https://www.thestar.com/sports/breakaway_blog/2014/11/habs_considered_taking_morgan_rielly_at_third_overall_in_2012.html

 

Perhaps that is issue he is regretting it since and taking it out on Alex Galchenyuk..

 

 

It all starts from top download his reactionary decisions are far from proactive! 

 

More later... but this has always bugged me and finally found the quote.  Take it for what it is worth!

 

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5 hours ago, illWill said:

 

I had yet another long response to this but decided to delete it. I'm done, have fun on this topic. I don't know how much I have to repeat myself. If a fan base can't appreciate the results that have been had, then maybe that fan base doesn't deserve them. 

 

Yah...one series win against the Bruins three years ago. That was the apex of Bergevin's Habs. Forgive me for not dancing naked in the streets.

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Commandant    599
7 hours ago, illWill said:

 

I had yet another long response to this but decided to delete it. I'm done, have fun on this topic. I don't know how much I have to repeat myself. If a fan base can't appreciate the results that have been had, then maybe that fan base doesn't deserve them. 

 

What results?

 

We don't hang division banners in the Bell Centre. 

 

His job is to continue to improve that team.... he's not improving it, if he's neglecting to fix the biggest weakness at one of the most important positions in the sport. 

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1 hour ago, Commandant said:

 

What results?

 

We don't hang division banners in the Bell Centre. 

 

His job is to continue to improve that team.... he's not improving it, if he's neglecting to fix the biggest weakness at one of the most important positions in the sport. 

 

2 hours ago, Lovett's Magnatones said:

 

Yah...one series win against the Bruins three years ago. That was the apex of Bergevin's Habs. Forgive me for not dancing naked in the streets.

 

No kidding!! That post on 'appreciating the results' summed it up for me. Yay! We're a playoff team most years. Mission accomplished! :crazy:

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DON    9
1 hour ago, Commandant said:

 

What results?

 

We don't hang division banners in the Bell Centre. 

 

His job is to continue to improve that team.... he's not improving it, if he's neglecting to fix the biggest weakness at one of the most important positions in the sport. 

In same time frame 25 or so other GMs also have same amount of cups, so you would have them all fired?:spamafote:

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29 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

 

No kidding!! That post on 'appreciating the results' summed it up for me. Yay! We're a playoff team most years. Mission accomplished! :crazy:

 

Just be grateful!!!!!

 

You're lucky we even have 82 games, children are starving in China.

 

We owe the franchise nothing. This is entertainment. If the team is stuck in neutral, and frankly, about as exacting as watching grass grow, we can change the channel.

 

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Commandant    599
32 minutes ago, DON said:

In same time frame 25 or so other GMs also have same amount of cups, so you would have them all fired?:spamafote:

 

Some GMs have been fired. 

 

If the team is showing improvement, thats one thing. But this team isn't.  As Lovett says, we are stuck in neutral until we fix the centre issue.  If a GM has a team that is stagnant for multiple years, then yes, they should be fired. 

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1 hour ago, hab29RETIRED said:

 

The funny thing about comparing Nill and GarbageBin is that Nill did two things this offseason Bergevin couldn't do: sign a top-9 center (Hanzal), and sign Radulov. Not the best argument to pick.

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hab29RETIRED    159
25 minutes ago, Lovett's Magnatones said:

 

The funny thing about comparing Nill and GarbageBin is that Nill did two things this offseason Bergevin couldn't do: sign a top-9 center (Hanzal), and sign Radulov. Not the best argument to pick.

I think he also picked up the more cost effective dman in methot vs Alzner 

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1 hour ago, Stogey24 said:

Farm system is ranked 28th in the league 

 

Mission accomplished! Just appreciate the results. :thumbs_up:

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lazy26    58
2 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said:

I think he also picked up the more cost effective dman in methot vs Alzner 

 

To be fair, Methot wanted nothing to do with Montreal.

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2 hours ago, lazy26 said:

To be fair, Methot wanted nothing to do with Montreal.

 

And I wouldn't want either player.

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Link67    95
22 hours ago, illWill said:

 

20 hours ago, Commandant said:

In six off-seasons you either have the ability to get the job done, or you don't. 

 

If after six off-seasons, he hasn't got the job done (while many of his colleagues are getting it done) all i hear from you is excuses. 

 

This isn't the try league, this is the get it done league. 

 

Again

 

1) Doesn't draft many centres in the top 2 rounds with offensive potential... just 1 in his first five drafts... 2 this year. 

2) Has been content to re-sign what he has to big money deals. 

3) Doesn't make an offer to a potential top six centre from russia.  Said centre signs for 2 years, 4.5 million per

4) Doesn't make an offer on Eric Staal.  Staal goes on to produce like a top 6 centre in Minnesota and is on a cheap 3 year deal. 

5) Doesn't get involved in one of the many trades for a top 6, while his fellow GMs are willing to pull the trigger. 

 

This is what we have seen happen over six years.

 

Meanwhile our centre situation gets worse with each passing year. 

 

So what do you call that?  What do you say if someone can do a job for 6 off-seasons, and not solve the biggest problem he is tasked with solving.  All while his colleagues are solving that same problem in a variety of ways. 

 

Of course you'll come up with yet another excuse, yet another deflection.  At what point does the GM get blamed?  He inherited a team with a great goalie.  With 2 great defencemen in Markov and Subban, with a great goal scorer in Pacioretty, with a number of solid pieces.  And all he had to do was finish the job by getting a number 1 centre for this group, and he can't do it. 

 

As I stated previously, i'm fully on board the train that Bergevin's #1 Flaw so far in his reign is without a doubt the lack of acquiring a top center. However with that said, on the Eric Staal topic, it is hard to believe anyone expected the same guy who was traded at the deadline with 33 points, who had 6 points in 20 games with NYR, and 0 points in 5 games in the playoffs, to come into this season and score 28 goals and 65 points. Eric Staal was trending in the wrong direction for 2 years, He constituted a risk, but at 3.5million AAV, it could easily be argued he was worth the risk. Shipachyov, I already touched base on this, we tried to sign him in November, it was a done deal until a clause in his contract stopped it. When it came time to sign him this summer, at the time of his signing, Pre-Free Agency, Bergevin would have calculated an amount available for each of Radulov, Markov, and Galchenyuk. At which point even a grade 5 math student would have been able to determine there just isn't 4.5 million available in the cap anymore. I firmly believe the situation was more along the line of, We can't afford you at this time, more so than we don't want you, they wanted him and almost signed him 8 months ago, why would they not want to now?

 

As for the drafting, yes it is a bit of a bother that we didn't take more risks on Centers during the drafts but ultimately I see that as a double edged blade. If we continue with the strategy to draft the best player available, and use that chip later on to make a trade for our needs, then that also works. Sergachev and Drouin is a perfect example of how you can turn a high level draft choice into a high level player who fits a need. If we drafted Player A, who is a RHD, and 2 years later he is a Junior Star on the cusp of being ready for the big leagues, and Player B, a young 24 year old Center, is on a team starved of any future star on Defense organizationally, there is a trade potential there that works for both sides. In turn you make a draft choice who wasn't a center, turn into the reason you acquire one, there is merit to the strategy. So in that regard i'm not OVERLY upset we didn't draft more Centers, i'm more disappointed at the fact we haven't scooped more high level prospect that could have been perfect bait to go get one. To me it all falls under the window of building through the draft, the problem exists when you don't draft enough centers to potentially cash in on one of them, or draft enough studs to then flip for a young center you can add to your core for years to come. The blame does not rest solely on Bergevin, there are a lot of moving parts to this circumstance that has us unable to get our hands on a top center, but there is no denying, and rightfully so, that he has to accept his fair share of blame and responsibility for it.

 

7 hours ago, Lovett's Magnatones said:

 

The funny thing about comparing Nill and GarbageBin is that Nill did two things this offseason Bergevin couldn't do: sign a top-9 center (Hanzal), and sign Radulov. Not the best argument to pick.

 

We need a top center, no more bandaids, no more "Hope he can fill the role of top Center" type of guys, we need an established or blooming, productive Center that could anchor this team's top line for years. We need to intelligently designate the necessary salary cap space to harbor such a player, long term, and continue to aggressively pursue options that fit the bill, not continually think about flinging 3 - 5 million at guys who will never be that. Hanzal STRUGGLES to reach the 40 point plateau year after year, he is far from the player he was expected to be, and quite frankly i'm tired of hearing about him as an option at Center since before the trade deadline. Had we been stupid enough to sign him, it would have been more money tied up in a center who is not fit to be the top center on this team, have we not freaking done enough of that for enough years already? Nill is paying 4.75 million for a guy who is best suited on a 3rd line, has a career high of 16 goals, and a career high of 41 points.

 

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Stogey24    221
3 hours ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

And I wouldn't want either player.

 

 

I'm seriously interested to see this team's transition game next season 

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Commandant    599

The blame does rest on bergevin. He has the power to hire and fire scouts, coaches, etc.... he is the boss.  He gets credit and blame.

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DON    9

Ya your right, he should get credit.

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xXx..CK..xXx    125
11 hours ago, Commandant said:

 

Some GMs have been fired. 

 

If the team is showing improvement, thats one thing. But this team isn't.  As Lovett says, we are stuck in neutral until we fix the centre issue.  If a GM has a team that is stagnant for multiple years, then yes, they should be fired. 

What's going on here? I've been throwing out ideas all summer when it comes to acquiring a center, whether it's Duchene, Thornton, etc. I also wasn't happy about losing Radulov. So I haven't been particularly pleased with this off season, while others have been. That being said, did you not just defend Bergevin's off season saying it hasn't been that bad, all the while posting an analytical graph which shows that the Habs improved slightly in the off season?

 

The need for a center point aside, your arguments aren't adding up.

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6 minutes ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

What's going on here? I've been throwing out ideas all summer when it comes to acquiring a center, whether it's Duchene, Thornton, etc. I also wasn't happy about losing Radulov. So I haven't been particularly pleased with this off season, while others have been. That being said, did you not just defend Bergevin's off season saying it hasn't been that bad, all the while posting an analytical graph which shows that the Habs improved slightly in the off season?

 

The need for a center point aside, your arguments aren't adding up.

 

The case against MB is not based on a still-incomplete off-season. It's cumulative, based on overall performance, including his atrocious drafting/development.

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Commandant    599
1 hour ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

What's going on here? I've been throwing out ideas all summer when it comes to acquiring a center, whether it's Duchene, Thornton, etc. I also wasn't happy about losing Radulov. So I haven't been particularly pleased with this off season, while others have been. That being said, did you not just defend Bergevin's off season saying it hasn't been that bad, all the while posting an analytical graph which shows that the Habs improved slightly in the off season?

 

The need for a center point aside, your arguments aren't adding up.

 

I was on the fire Bergevin train before this off-season began.  I was on it after his complete failure at the trade deadline.  This hasn't changed. 

 

As for this offseason, he's made this team a small bit better than it was last season.  That means he's not in the top 3 worst off-seasons in the NHL, which is what I sadi.  That still doesn't mean that what he's done is good enough, as he still hasn't addressed the core issue. 

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